Political spectrum, Trumpism, and ideological semantics (Split from Covid-19 miscellany)

[Metaphor]

That is not what you accused him of here, Metaphor, You accused him of being an American chauvinist.

Yes. I accused him of being an American chauvinist because of his obsession with Trump and his casual expansion of that obsession to people worldwide.

I shake my head every time the likes of Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have the 'far left' sticker slapped on them.

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

 

[TomC]

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

I don't think it's Hermit who has the distorted view of the political spectrum, at least not from the standpoint of USA politics.
AOC is left of U.S. partisan political folks. But the USA is hugely off center of global political views.
And frankly, the U.S. government is much more radical right than the U.S. people as a whole.

Perhaps the problem is that you don't understand the USA as well as you think you do?
Tom

 

[Hermit]

That is not what you accused him of here, Metaphor, You accused him of being an American chauvinist.

Yes. I accused him of being an American chauvinist because of his obsession with Trump and his casual expansion of that obsession to people worldwide.

Yeah. Sure. When you accused elixir of being an American chauvinist you meant his obsession with Trump and his casual expansion of that obsession to people worldwide. It's the logical inference.

I shake my head every time the likes of Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have the 'far left' sticker slapped on them.

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

The policies proposed by the likes of Sanders and Cortez are no more radical than the ones actually in place in the US during the 1950s. Might seem far left to you, but they were mainstream then.

 

[Metaphor]

Yeah. Sure. When you accused elixir of being an American chauvinist you meant his obsession with Trump and his casual expansion of that obsession to people worldwide. It's the logical inference.

Yes.

 

[Metaphor]

The policies proposed by the likes of Sanders and Cortez are no more radical than the ones actually in place in the US during the 1950s. Might seem far left to you, but they were mainstream then.

What was in place during the 1950s that is now no longer in place and is advocated by AOC but still seen as too far left for mainstream discourse?

 

[Metaphor]

AOC is left of U.S. partisan political folks. But the USA is hugely off center of global political views.

Really? How far 'to the right' of the 'global' centre is the US? How have you weighted South America, and Africa, and Europe, and Asia?

What kinds of policies do you think mark the 'far left', the centre and the 'far right'?

 

[TomC]

AOC is left of U.S. partisan political folks. But the USA is hugely off center of global political views.

Really? How far 'to the right' of the 'global' centre is the US? How have you weighted South America, and Africa, and Europe, and Asia?

What kinds of policies do you think mark the 'far left', the centre and the 'far right'?

Sorry for being unclear.
I was referring to first world secular democracies. I didn't specify that. GB, Denmark, Germany, Australia, places like that.
Tom

 

[Hermit]

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

The Overton window has shifted too far to the right to allow for politicians with far left policies being elected. The political spectrum is lopsided. There is no left.

Around 2016 it looked like this:

Bernie Sanders was slightly left of centre. I'm not sure which side of him Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez could be placed, but she'd probably be close to him on either.

 

[Bomb#20]

The policies proposed by the likes of Sanders and Cortez are no more radical than the ones actually in place in the US during the 1950s. Might seem far left to you, but they were mainstream then.

Sanders proposed a 100% tax bracket. Cortez proposed universal healthcare, a minimum wage three times higher than in the 1950s adjusted for inflation, a federal guarantee of a job and affordable housing, and meeting 100 percent of the power demand in the United States through clean, renewable, and zero-emission energy sources. Those policies were in place in the 1950s, you're saying?

 

[Metaphor]

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

The Overton window has shifted too far to the right to allow for politicians with far left policies being elected. The political spectrum is lopsided. There is no left.

Around 2016 it looked like this:

Bernie Sanders was slightly left of centre. I'm not sure which side of him Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez could be placed, but she'd probably be close to him on either.

That graphic is deeply distorted, and I suspect it came from somebody on the far left, or commissioned by somebody on the far left. It also does not make any sense as either a 'fixed' scale or a relative scale.

Who is in the space to the left of Bernie, and what policies do they advocate? I take it these policies are too radical for the American people and the people who advocate them are unelectable. You said before that AOC and Sanders advocate some policies that were in existence in America in the 1950s. What were those policies?

Who is in the space to the right of Trump? Are we to believe Trump is as right-wing as can be conceived? Based on what policies? Are there almost no policies or politicians to the right of Trump, who was elected President once? That Trump is the upper limit of the right wing, whilst there remains a vast number of people and policies to the left of Bernie?

If the scale is relative to the views the American public holds (and not relative to global population views or global politicians/policies), what percentage of the population holds views to the left of Sanders? The scale implies (by line length) something like at least 40% of the population is to the left of Bernie.

 

[Hermit]

Sanders proposed a 100% tax bracket.

Google says: "No results found for Sanders proposed a "100% tax bracket"

With a start like that I can't be bothered reading the rest of your post.

 

[Hermit]

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

The Overton window has shifted too far to the right to allow for politicians with far left policies being elected. The political spectrum is lopsided. There is no left.

Around 2016 it looked like this:

Bernie Sanders was slightly left of centre. I'm not sure which side of him Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez could be placed, but she'd probably be close to him on either.

That graphic is deeply distorted

Definitely. Due to the movement described by the Overton Window there is no more left left. The process is not confined to the US, by the way.

 

[Metaphor]

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

The Overton window has shifted too far to the right to allow for politicians with far left policies being elected. The political spectrum is lopsided. There is no left.

Around 2016 it looked like this:

Bernie Sanders was slightly left of centre. I'm not sure which side of him Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez could be placed, but she'd probably be close to him on either.

That graphic is deeply distorted

Definitely. Due to the movement described by the Overton Window there is no more left left. The process is not confined to the US, by the way.

That really does not answer my question at all. And please do not quote me using sentence fragments. It decontextualises what I wrote. You can either quote a full sentence or--at the very least--indicate that you snipped the sentence you quoted.

If there is no person and no policies to the left of Bernie, then Bernie is the far left. If there are persons or policies to the left of Bernie, what are they?

When you said:

The policies proposed by the likes of Sanders and Cortez are no more radical than the ones actually in place in the US during the 1950s. Might seem far left to you, but they were mainstream then.

What policies did you have in mind? I have asked you a number of times now.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Sanders proposed a 100% tax bracket.

Google says: "No results found for Sanders proposed a "100% tax bracket"

That is odd I googled it to. It took me less than 30 seconds to find one case:

Bernie Sanders on Tax Reform

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The guy in the middle with the Confederate flag is probably just a history buff.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you believe AOC is not 'far left', I put it to you you may have a distorted view of the political spectrum, though I do agree that AOC is the 'leftist limit' of electable in a federal election.

The Overton window has shifted too far to the right to allow for politicians with far left policies being elected. The political spectrum is lopsided. There is no left.

Around 2016 it looked like this:

Bernie Sanders was slightly left of centre. I'm not sure which side of him Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez could be placed, but she'd probably be close to him on either.

Orrin Hatch used to be the fringe. Now Jordan is mainstream and Greene is fringe-ish.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Gee. I thought I was looking at the thread about COVID. WTF!

One of the things about that is this quote of statistics from Jimmy:

New Zealand - ~50 (11)
USA - ~1,000,000 (2,912)

It's interesting because conservatives/Libertarians were screaming about lockdowns being a Holocaust but when confronted with numbers, it's *crickets*. I guess it's natural from there that the parallel conversation of screaming about the "far left" will become center stage when the other discussion has gone dead. You are right that that one has really gone too far at this point. My bad for participating in it...

To maybe try to get this on track...it's kind of interesting that there are all these wacky conspiracy protests. Governments are opening up, often following a risk-based approach to do it the right way, and in parallel, I think the protesters who live in a separate bubble are telling themselves that they are making it happen, seeing themselves as heroes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

AOC is left of U.S. partisan political folks. But the USA is hugely off center of global political views.

Really? How far 'to the right' of the 'global' centre is the US? How have you weighted South America, and Africa, and Europe, and Asia?

What kinds of policies do you think mark the 'far left', the centre and the 'far right'?

FYI, half the elected GOP in the House of Reps are fascists that tried to overthrow our election. America was one person, VP Pence, away from having the election successfully contested and stolen by the GOP. I know this seems so long ago that you can't remember it, but the Republican party has become polarized in its own right, between the partisans and the hyper fascist partisans. The GOP is barely even a political party that has actual political positions.

 

[laughing dog]

Sanders proposed a 100% tax bracket.

Google says: "No results found for Sanders proposed a "100% tax bracket"

That is odd I googled it to. It took me less than 30 seconds to find one case:

Bernie Sanders on Tax Reform

From your link

SANDERS: We haven't come up with an exact number yet, but it will not be as high as the number under Dwight D. Eisenhower, which was 90%. I'm not that much of a socialist compared to Eisenhower. But we are going to end the absurdity, as Warren Buffet often reminds us, that billionaires pay an effective tax rate lower than nurses or truck drivers. That makes no sense at all. There has to be real tax reform, and the wealthiest and large corporations will pay when I'm president.

It seems Mr. Sanders has disavowed his 1974 (almost 50 years ago) proposal for 100% income tax for incomes over $1million dollars.

 

[crazyfingers]

I had a conversation with a colleague in the UK a few years ago. He described himself as very conservative. He said he aligned a little to the left of US Democrats. He commented that among the world's industrialized democracies, the US is seen a far right.

I was aware of this but it was interesting to hear it from him.