Possibly 'Politically motivated' hostage situation in downtown Sydney

[Narapoia]

Thought there would already be a thread on this one - there's been nothing but this on the local news and a fair bit of international coverage.

ABC coverage

A single man has taken 15-30 people hostage in a cafe in the heart of Sydney, the political motivation hinted at when some of the captives were forced to hold up an Islamic flag (NOT IS, Isil, Daesh etc). It's been going on for about 13 hours or so, really sucks for the people in the situation and their families.

Interesting to see most people behaving pretty well, as well as news outlets - with some notable exceptions. Though there is a relatively expected bit of hyperbole, lots of 'Sydney siege' and a 'a nation under threat'. Well, not really, it's guy with a gun in a cafe. He is speaking with the cops and has made some demands but they are not publicising them for obvious reasons.

A few people escaped or were released earlier in the day, hopefully there will be a resolution by morning.

 

[bilby]

Thought there would already be a thread on this one - there's been nothing but this on the local news and a fair bit of international coverage.

ABC coverage

A single man has taken 15-30 people hostage in a cafe in the heart of Sydney, the political motivation hinted at when some of the captives were forced to hold up an Islamic flag (NOT IS, Isil, Daesh etc). It's been going on for about 13 hours or so, really sucks for the people in the situation and their families.

Interesting to see most people behaving pretty well, as well as news outlets - with some notable exceptions. Though there is a relatively expected bit of hyperbole, lots of 'Sydney siege' and a 'a nation under threat'. Well, not really, it's guy with a gun in a cafe. He is speaking with the cops and has made some demands but they are not publicising them for obvious reasons.

A few people escaped or were released earlier in the day, hopefully there will be a resolution by morning.

The cops in Sydney are not dumb. One man with a gun is only a threat for about 20 hours, tops, before he goes to sleep, and they can cuff him with no loss of life.

This isn't the wild west; and nobody's in a rush. Unless he starts killing hostages, it's just a matter of being patient.

Regardless of the opinions of channels 7 and 9, or of the tabloid warriors and talk-back crusaders.

 

[Narapoia]

True, though you might need to revise your estimate up by a few hours. It seems like an odd situation as he must know this himself, I can't see it being the desired outcome given the proximity of high profile buildings in the area.

 

[dystopian]

And xenophobic politicians on entirely different continents are already trying to use this for their own political gain. I wish I could still feel surprise.

 

[credoconsolans]

I saw the story this morning, and perhaps I'm a jaded American, but my first thought was,

"Still? Our cops would have stormed the place and already shot that sorry piece of trash."

 

[bilby]

I saw the story this morning, and perhaps I'm a jaded American, but my first thought was,

"Still? Our cops would have stormed the place and already shot that sorry piece of trash."

Yeah, that's one reason why I am glad I don't live over there. Patience is a virtue.

As it turned out, he did start shooting, so they had to storm the place anyway; but at least they tried to resolve things without violence.

Three dead, including the perpetrator, who is a known nutcase and wannabe Muslim (although the Islamic community didn't want him, and he spent a long time running his own cult). He has form for accessory to his ex-wife's murder, and was apparently pissed off because the courts had not been sympathetic to his practice of sending rude letters to the families of deceased Australian servicemen.

This was no more an 'Islamic terrorist' attack then the Port Arthur massacre was a 'Christian terrorist' or 'Blonde terrorist' attack; but the racists have lost their shit over it anyway, spurred on by inflammatory and purely speculative (ie making shit up) 'news' reporting, as we might have predicted.

I just hope that when the dust settles, and various police and government departments are asking 'What must we do to prevent this from happening again?', they reach the rational conclusion that the only correct answer is 'Nothing, you can't defend society against random nutters', instead of their usual knee-jerk response of clamping down on the liberty of ordinary citizens.

 

[credoconsolans]

I saw the story this morning, and perhaps I'm a jaded American, but my first thought was,

"Still? Our cops would have stormed the place and already shot that sorry piece of trash."

Yeah, that's one reason why I am glad I don't live over there. Patience is a virtue.

As it turned out, he did start shooting, so they had to storm the place anyway; but at least they tried to resolve things without violence.

Three dead, including the perpetrator, who is a known nutcase and wannabe Muslim (although the Islamic community didn't want him, and he spent a long time running his own cult). He has form for accessory to his ex-wife's murder, and was apparently pissed off because the courts had not been sympathetic to his practice of sending rude letters to the families of deceased Australian servicemen.

This was no more an 'Islamic terrorist' attack then the Port Arthur massacre was a 'Christian terrorist' or 'Blonde terrorist' attack; but the racists have lost their shit over it anyway, spurred on by inflammatory and purely speculative (ie making shit up) 'news' reporting, as we might have predicted.

I just hope that when the dust settles, and various police and government departments are asking 'What must we do to prevent this from happening again?', they reach the rational conclusion that the only correct answer is 'Nothing, you can't defend society against random nutters', instead of their usual knee-jerk response of clamping down on the liberty of ordinary citizens.

I read he had 40 counts of sexual assault lined up against him. Why was he still on the streets? More patience?

 

[bilby]

Yeah, that's one reason why I am glad I don't live over there. Patience is a virtue.

As it turned out, he did start shooting, so they had to storm the place anyway; but at least they tried to resolve things without violence.

Three dead, including the perpetrator, who is a known nutcase and wannabe Muslim (although the Islamic community didn't want him, and he spent a long time running his own cult). He has form for accessory to his ex-wife's murder, and was apparently pissed off because the courts had not been sympathetic to his practice of sending rude letters to the families of deceased Australian servicemen.

This was no more an 'Islamic terrorist' attack then the Port Arthur massacre was a 'Christian terrorist' or 'Blonde terrorist' attack; but the racists have lost their shit over it anyway, spurred on by inflammatory and purely speculative (ie making shit up) 'news' reporting, as we might have predicted.

I just hope that when the dust settles, and various police and government departments are asking 'What must we do to prevent this from happening again?', they reach the rational conclusion that the only correct answer is 'Nothing, you can't defend society against random nutters', instead of their usual knee-jerk response of clamping down on the liberty of ordinary citizens.

I read he had 40 counts of sexual assault lined up against him. Why was he still on the streets? More patience?

Over here we generally prefer to convict people before incarcerating them, unless there is a clear and immediate threat to public safety. It lets the odd guilty party remain free for a while, but that is better than locking up innocent people.

Those sexual assault charges didn't indicate in any way that he was about to flip out and start taking hostages.

But perhaps in the US you prefer to simply lock everyone up until they prove themselves not to be a threat to others? 'Land of the free' my arse.

 

[Metaphor]

Three dead, including the perpetrator, who is a known nutcase and wannabe Muslim (although the Islamic community didn't want him, and he spent a long time running his own cult).

What's a wannabe Muslim? Was he 'excommunicated' from the Islamic religious community?

I don't know how you're drawing the line between a wannabe Muslim and a real one.

This was no more an 'Islamic terrorist' attack then the Port Arthur massacre was a 'Christian terrorist' or 'Blonde terrorist' attack; but the racists have lost their shit over it anyway, spurred on by inflammatory and purely speculative (ie making shit up) 'news' reporting, as we might have predicted.

So the Islamic flag he forced the hostage victims to hold up had nothing to do with Islam?

But, let's wait until someone brings up the bombing of an abortion clinic in the 1980s by a Christian.

 

[Bronzeage]

I saw the story this morning, and perhaps I'm a jaded American, but my first thought was,

"Still? Our cops would have stormed the place and already shot that sorry piece of trash."

I don't think so. When hostages are involved, every attempt is made to bring everyone out alive. Storming into a hostage situation is always the last resort and taken only when all other avenues are exhausted. Most hostage situations are resolved without shooting, so they don't make a lot of news. The person who does something like this is seldom stable and every incident is unique.

 

[bilby]

What's a wannabe Muslim? Was he 'excommunicated' from the Islamic religious community?

I don't know how you're drawing the line between a wannabe Muslim and a real one.

This was no more an 'Islamic terrorist' attack then the Port Arthur massacre was a 'Christian terrorist' or 'Blonde terrorist' attack; but the racists have lost their shit over it anyway, spurred on by inflammatory and purely speculative (ie making shit up) 'news' reporting, as we might have predicted.

So the Islamic flag he forced the hostage victims to hold up had nothing to do with Islam?

But, let's wait until someone brings up the bombing of an abortion clinic in the 1980s by a Christian.

Well he was also a man. Do you think that we should be saturating social media with calls for all men to be deported or incarcerated?

He did what he did because he was crazy. Islam may have been a minor contributing factor, but this incident certainly is not evidence that the Australian Islamic community are extraordinarily dangerous.

The Australian anti-Islamic community on the other hand scare the crap out of me. If this incident helps to put power in the hands of Pauline Hanson's One Braincell Party, or helps inspire the supporters of such groups to violence, then I expect the final death toll will be higher from the backlash than it was from the incident itself.

 

[bilby]

I saw the story this morning, and perhaps I'm a jaded American, but my first thought was,

"Still? Our cops would have stormed the place and already shot that sorry piece of trash."

I don't think so. When hostages are involved, every attempt is made to bring everyone out alive. Storming into a hostage situation is always the last resort and taken only when all other avenues are exhausted. Most hostage situations are resolved without shooting, so they don't make a lot of news. The person who does something like this is seldom stable and every incident is unique.

Well the latest news is that one of the hostages noticed that the gunman was dropping off to sleep, and tried to wrestle the gun away from him. This led to shots being fired, which prompted the police to storm the place.

The hostage in question is being hailed by parts of the media as a 'hero'; although if this story is true, it seems that had he been less impetuous and waited for the professionals to act once the gunman was fully asleep, there could have been a non-fatal outcome for all. You can't blame him for trying, given the circumstances, but in hindsight his actions were probably not the best option.

 

[ZiprHead]

Anybody with 40 counts of sexual assault should be locked up with an extremely, prohibitively high bond.

 

[bilby]

Anybody with 40 counts of sexual assault should be locked up with an extremely, prohibitively high bond.

That depends on the circumstances. He was accused of one count of sexual assault; the other counts are people who then came forward with 'He attacked me too' claims; all of this stems from his time as head of his own personal religious cult.

Imprisoning people on the basis of accusation alone, before any evidence has been presented in court, is contrary to the fundamental idea of a free society.

I am constantly amazed at the hypocrisy of Americans, who seem to simultaneously pat themselves on the back for their 'freedom' while advocating vicious and harsh action against people on the basis of suspicion alone. Does anyone in your country actually know what the word 'freedom' means?

 

[Warpoet]

Does anyone in your country actually know what the word 'freedom' means?

Yes, but it only applies to white, non-Muslim heterosexuals.

 

[bigfield]

I don't think so. When hostages are involved, every attempt is made to bring everyone out alive. Storming into a hostage situation is always the last resort and taken only when all other avenues are exhausted. Most hostage situations are resolved without shooting, so they don't make a lot of news. The person who does something like this is seldom stable and every incident is unique.

Well the latest news is that one of the hostages noticed that the gunman was dropping off to sleep, and tried to wrestle the gun away from him. This led to shots being fired, which prompted the police to storm the place.

The hostage in question is being hailed by parts of the media as a 'hero'; although if this story is true, it seems that had he been less impetuous and waited for the professionals to act once the gunman was fully asleep, there could have been a non-fatal outcome for all. You can't blame him for trying, given the circumstances, but in hindsight his actions were probably not the best option.

The 'hero' paid for his mistake with his life, as I understand it.

One of the downsides of our exposure to Hollywood is that no-one knows what the special tactics police are going to do. They are rarely depicted as the specially-trained professionals that they are, and are frequently outsmarted by the bad guys, all to set up a heroic intervention by the protagonist.

 

[Metaphor]

Well he was also a man. Do you think that we should be saturating social media with calls for all men to be deported or incarcerated?

Who's calling for all Muslims to be incarcerated and/or deported? Not me.

But, you do make a point. Men are far more likely to be the perpetrators of violent crime, and so you have more to fear from a man than a woman. Why should people bend over backwards trying to deny it?

He did what he did because he was crazy. Islam may have been a minor contributing factor, but this incident certainly is not evidence that the Australian Islamic community are extraordinarily dangerous.

Well, yes he was crazy, and it appears he could find enough in his religion to affirm and validate his feelings, instead of his religion tempering them.

 

[bilby]

Who's calling for all Muslims to be incarcerated and/or deported?

Evidently you have been wise enough to stay away from facebook today.

 

[credoconsolans]

I read he had 40 counts of sexual assault lined up against him. Why was he still on the streets? More patience?

Over here we generally prefer to convict people before incarcerating them, unless there is a clear and immediate threat to public safety. It lets the odd guilty party remain free for a while, but that is better than locking up innocent people.

Those sexual assault charges didn't indicate in any way that he was about to flip out and start taking hostages.

But perhaps in the US you prefer to simply lock everyone up until they prove themselves not to be a threat to others? 'Land of the free' my arse.

Death threats to innocent people - don't know about Australia, but in the States, that's a crime - and 40 counts of sexual assault to boot...and then he ends up pulling a gun on a crowd in a cafe.

Hmmm....

 

[bilby]

Over here we generally prefer to convict people before incarcerating them, unless there is a clear and immediate threat to public safety. It lets the odd guilty party remain free for a while, but that is better than locking up innocent people.

Those sexual assault charges didn't indicate in any way that he was about to flip out and start taking hostages.

But perhaps in the US you prefer to simply lock everyone up until they prove themselves not to be a threat to others? 'Land of the free' my arse.

Death threats to innocent people - don't know about Australia, but in the States, that's a crime - and 40 counts of sexual assault to boot...and then he ends up pulling a gun on a crowd in a cafe.

Hmmm....

Nobody gets punished for a crime until they are found guilty by a court.

If someone is a threat to public safety, they might be remanded in custody, with far more rights and comforts than a convict; but as a matter of principle, people are not imprisoned on remand unless they are a high flight risk or clear danger to society.

The harder the line taken, the more risk there is that innocent people will be imprisoned. Events such as yesterday's siege are so rare that to prevent them by imprisoning more people on remand, you would have to imprison massively more innocent people than is currently the case.

As an innocent person myself, I do not support the widespread capricious imprisonment of large numbers of people that this would entail.

I prefer a fractionaly more dangerous freedom to a fractionally safer police state.

By the way, more people have died in New South Wales from road traffic incidents in the last two days than as a result of sieges in cafes. I am certain that the risk from random gunmen is not so high as to warrant any new or increased impost on the public by the authorities.