Presidential vapor in Hiroshima....

[coloradoatheist]

How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

And Japan wasn't doing anything in China was it? Japan was just a peaceful nation and was minding it's own business and the US decided to stop selling it oil?

 

[Tristan Scott]

As I said it is completely inaccurate to say that Japan made peace overtures to the allies. The talks with the Vatican went no-where mostly because there was no official followthrough on the part of Japan. We know from Japanese records that there was no followthrough because the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War, AKA the Big Six, was deeply divided over which course to take to end the war. The three civilian members wanted to attempt a negotiated peace while the three military members wanted to continue the war. Even the Emperor as late as April , '45 when asked if he thought it was time for a negotiated peace he was still holding out for a "Decisive victory". The division of the big six continued until late into the night after the bombing of Nagasaki when the Emperor broke the impasse by ordering a surrender. Even though a handful of lower ranking officers in the army refused to accept the decision and unsuccessfully attempted a coup a few days later, General Anami, the army representative on the big six finally accepted the order. He rationalized that face could be saved because instead of being defeated in the field of battle they were defeated by technology.

It also should be noted that because of the vicious nature of the war with Japan, and because of the unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor, the American people would have accepted nothing less that an unconditional surrender. The fact that we were open to allowing the Emperor to keep his position was signaled to the Japanese through Truman's declaration following Potsdam when though he enumerated what unconditional surrender meant; loss of territory, total disarmament, answering for war crimes, etc, he pointedly did not mention the fate of the Emperor. This was not lost on the Japanese and is on record as having been discussed during a Big Six meeting. But even with that information the Big Six still could not come to agreement on surrender.

The Japanese exercised what we have known for thousands of years were initiations for peace. Again all negotiations would be complex with each party trying to retain certain benefits or salvage what they can. Every party will have a different view which is why we have peace talks.

The line fed to the West that the Nuclear bomb by taking lives really saved more lives when in fact early peace talks were ignored, thus resulting in hundreds of thousands of lives prior to and during drops on Hiroshima followed by Nagasaki. The peace talks may have also helped the allies to also come to an agreement among themselves.

You can say this all you want, but it simply did not happen. There is no evidence that this ever happened. Your CIA brief didn't say it happened. All it says happened was that Vatican officials were approached by a Japanese official. After the Vatican officials expressed their skepticism that the differences between the Japanese and allied conditions for peace were too great, the Japanese official promised to return with a more favorable offer. This never happened, or do you have some never before seen evidence that it did?

What you are doing is cherry picking. That's not a good way to analyze history.

 

[Tristan Scott]

As I said it is completely inaccurate to say that Japan made peace overtures to the allies. The talks with the Vatican went no-where mostly because there was no official followthrough on the part of Japan. We know from Japanese records that there was no followthrough because the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War, AKA the Big Six, was deeply divided over which course to take to end the war. The three civilian members wanted to attempt a negotiated peace while the three military members wanted to continue the war. Even the Emperor as late as April , '45 when asked if he thought it was time for a negotiated peace he was still holding out for a "Decisive victory". The division of the big six continued until late into the night after the bombing of Nagasaki when the Emperor broke the impasse by ordering a surrender. Even though a handful of lower ranking officers in the army refused to accept the decision and unsuccessfully attempted a coup a few days later, General Anami, the army representative on the big six finally accepted the order. He rationalized that face could be saved because instead of being defeated in the field of battle they were defeated by technology.

It also should be noted that because of the vicious nature of the war with Japan, and because of the unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor, the American people would have accepted nothing less that an unconditional surrender. The fact that we were open to allowing the Emperor to keep his position was signaled to the Japanese through Truman's declaration following Potsdam when though he enumerated what unconditional surrender meant; loss of territory, total disarmament, answering for war crimes, etc, he pointedly did not mention the fate of the Emperor. This was not lost on the Japanese and is on record as having been discussed during a Big Six meeting. But even with that information the Big Six still could not come to agreement on surrender.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was NOT AN ATTACK ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION. Those were battleships and other warships that were attacked on that day. These was a lot of firepower stationed in Hawaii at the time. Do you think this was for no purpose? These huge battleships poised at the ready...to sail to Japan or perhaps run the Japanese out of their empire and make it an American one. General Lemay's firebomb attack on the entire population of Japan was an animal of a different sort. It was NOT AT THAT TIME any longer an escalation of war into the killing of civilians as the U.S. had already firebombed big cities in Europe. We as a species have become so virulently violent that we must abandon the politics of aggression. We need to acknowledge it and get to work on that...not go to Japan and tell them they deserved it and we needed it and give up hope on nukes going away in Obama's lifetime. We really don't have the time for foot dragging on the nuclear disarmament issue.

You have no idea what you are talking about. We were at peace, we were at war with nobody-the American people did not want war and without warning the Japanese attacked our fleet. What would you have done in response, akirk? Blow them kisses? Offer them a bon-bon? What the fuck are you even talking about here?

 

[untermensche]

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

And Japan wasn't doing anything in China was it? Japan was just a peaceful nation and was minding it's own business and the US decided to stop selling it oil?

Did you read the article?

The US went to war, economic war, against Japan long before Pearl Harbor. Which was just one event in that war.

 

[ZiprHead]

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

And Japan wasn't doing anything in China was it? Japan was just a peaceful nation and was minding it's own business and the US decided to stop selling it oil?

Did you read the article?

The US went to war, economic war, against Japan long before Pearl Harbor. Which was just one event in that war.

And why did the US go to economic war with Japan? Because the Japanese were committing severe atrocities in their occupation of China. They were continually killing civilians by the thousands daily. They didn't try to hide it, they bragged about it in the Japanese press and continued to commit those atrocities throughout the war. Even as the nukes were dropped on Japan, the atrocities continued. Not only did the nukes shorten the war for both the US and Japan but also saves hundreds of thousands in China and elsewhere throughout the orient.

 

[untermensche]

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

And Japan wasn't doing anything in China was it? Japan was just a peaceful nation and was minding it's own business and the US decided to stop selling it oil?

Did you read the article?

The US went to war, economic war, against Japan long before Pearl Harbor. Which was just one event in that war.

And why did the US go to economic war with Japan? Because the Japanese were committing severe atrocities in their occupation of China. They were continually killing civilians by the thousands daily. They didn't try to hide it, they bragged about it in the Japanese press and continued to commit those atrocities throughout the war. Even as the nukes were dropped on Japan, the atrocities continued. Not only did the nukes shorten the war for both the US and Japan but also saves hundreds of thousands in China and elsewhere throughout the orient.

Is that why?

Who told you this?

If the US was so opposed to atrocities why did it carry out one of the worst atrocities in history in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos?

 

[Ford]

The US went to war, economic war, against Japan long before Pearl Harbor. Which was just one event in that war.

Why do I get the impression that if you were to ever visit the USS Arizona Memorial, you'd be caught pissing on the sunken battleship?

 

[Keith&Co.]

How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

Okay.
So, we provoked their attack on Pearl Harbor, and they provoked our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This changes....what, really?

 

[untermensche]

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

Okay.
So, we provoked their attack on Pearl Harbor, and they provoked our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This changes....what, really?

I think the bombings were done as an experiment, with the background of the war as an excuse. At least the first one. The second had to come once the decision to drop the first was made and the Japanese did not surrender.

But if the nukes weren't dropped then more normal bombings would have occurred. Which were arguably just as bad or worse.

At this point American blood lust was going to be unleashed on the Japanese. The massive propaganda to get the US public to hate the Japanese created a need for an outlet.

 

[Bronzeage]

The US went to war, economic war, against Japan long before Pearl Harbor. Which was just one event in that war.

Why do I get the impression that if you were to ever visit the USS Arizona Memorial, you'd be caught pissing on the sunken battleship?

You can only reach it by boat and I'm pretty sure this would mean a swim back.

 

[Ford]

Why do I get the impression that if you were to ever visit the USS Arizona Memorial, you'd be caught pissing on the sunken battleship?

You can only reach it by boat and I'm pretty sure this would mean a swim back.

And no doubt he'd be turned in by one of the many Japanese visitors who come to pay their respects.

 

[Ford]

I think the bombings were done as an experiment, with the background of the war as an excuse.

Just an FYI...

Once a year the public can visit the site of the first experimental detonation of an atomic weapon. Hint: It is not Hiroshima.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

WWII was an advance in the level of inhuman behavior government leaders in all countries involved became willing to indulge in for the sake of winning. I knew when I posted this OP, that the same chorus of promoters of war and destruction would get together and chant their mantra...their only mantra.."It was necessary to save lives." This is pure bullshit. We had already made it abundantly clear our forces were prepared to totally destroy the entire Japanese society...men, women, and children...EVEN IF THERE WAS NO NUKE. The allies had already firebombed city after city in Japan and had to withhold bombs from a few select cities for their experiment in human incineration...men, women, and children. Japan already knew that blitzkrieg was on the way and also the Russians.

It is no surprise that whatever inhumane action is selected or suggested by a guy with a brass hat in the American military, some of us will always feel such actions are "necessary." It is either paranoia or just plain racial hatred. It has been that way for thousands of years and modern technology has done nothing to change that...so we watch guys like Obama and Trump rise in popularity because they are somehow "hip enough" to know those worthless people on the other side of the globe need us to either rule them or exterminate them. It is the same mentality that seeks to grind the Palestinians in Gaza to dust. This pernicious world view is usually held by people who must have all the latest security and wall themselves in from the rest of society. Weapons of mass destruction are the tools of cowardly fools with no sense of human rights. That is why I view the words of Obama at Hiroshima nothing but vapors...suggesting no real way forward to disarmament.

You obsess with our actions and don't realize the role the Japanese played in them.

You also place far more value on the lives of anyone who attacks America than you place on American lives.

And I note you object to the lack of a way to disarmament--ignoring the fact that in today's world that isn't an option. There's no way you can make the various black hats in the world disarm, all that disarmament will do is turn us into victims of them.

You want to bow down to ISIS?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Japanese exercised what we have known for thousands of years were initiations for peace. Again all negotiations would be complex with each party trying to retain certain benefits or salvage what they can. Every party will have a different view which is why we have peace talks.

The line fed to the West that the Nuclear bomb by taking lives really saved more lives when in fact early peace talks were ignored, thus resulting in hundreds of thousands of lives prior to and during drops on Hiroshima followed by Nagasaki. The peace talks may have also helped the allies to also come to an agreement among themselves.

It has just been explained to you what the "peace" overtures you are obsessing about really were, yet you go right on acting like they were a real attempt at peace.

You also ignore the fact that Japan was going to face major starvation in the winter of 1945. Anything that dragged out the war (even if there wasn't a single shot fired) would have had a major death toll.

 

[untermensche]

I think the bombings were done as an experiment, with the background of the war as an excuse.

Just an FYI...

Once a year the public can visit the site of the first experimental detonation of an atomic weapon. Hint: It is not Hiroshima.

Experiment on a city.

 

[laughing dog]

You obsess with our actions and don't realize the role the Japanese played in them.

You also place far more value on the lives of anyone who attacks America than you place on American lives.

To be fair, the Japanese did not force the US to drop an atomic bomb. We made a deliberate choice, fully aware of the extensive damage to civilians that an atomic bomb. And, after dropping the first one, we gave them little time before we dropped the second one. While the USA need not be apologetic for its actions, especially towards a nation that still refuses to apologize for its WWII atrocities, the USA still bears the responsibility for its choices.

And I note you object to the lack of a way to disarmament--ignoring the fact that in today's world that isn't an option. There's no way you can make the various black hats in the world disarm, all that disarmament will do is turn us into victims of them.

You want to bow down to ISIS?

ISIS does not have nuclear weapons, so what on earth are you babbling about?

 

[ZiprHead]

And why did the US go to economic war with Japan? Because the Japanese were committing severe atrocities in their occupation of China. They were continually killing civilians by the thousands daily. They didn't try to hide it, they bragged about it in the Japanese press and continued to commit those atrocities throughout the war. Even as the nukes were dropped on Japan, the atrocities continued. Not only did the nukes shorten the war for both the US and Japan but also saves hundreds of thousands in China and elsewhere throughout the orient.

Is that why?

Who told you this?

If the US was so opposed to atrocities why did it carry out one of the worst atrocities in history in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos?

What the hell did we do that can compare to The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanking?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It also should be noted that because of the vicious nature of the war with Japan, and because of the unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor, the American people would have accepted nothing less that an unconditional surrender. The fact that we were open to allowing the Emperor to keep his position was signaled to the Japanese through Truman's declaration following Potsdam when though he enumerated what unconditional surrender meant; loss of territory, total disarmament, answering for war crimes, etc, he pointedly did not mention the fate of the Emperor. This was not lost on the Japanese and is on record as having been discussed during a Big Six meeting. But even with that information the Big Six still could not come to agreement on surrender.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was NOT AN ATTACK ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION. Those were battleships and other warships that were attacked on that day. These was a lot of firepower stationed in Hawaii at the time. Do you think this was for no purpose? These huge battleships poised at the ready...to sail to Japan or perhaps run the Japanese out of their empire and make it an American one. General Lemay's firebomb attack on the entire population of Japan was an animal of a different sort. It was NOT AT THAT TIME any longer an escalation of war into the killing of civilians as the U.S. had already firebombed big cities in Europe. We as a species have become so virulently violent that we must abandon the politics of aggression. We need to acknowledge it and get to work on that...not go to Japan and tell them they deserved it and we needed it and give up hope on nukes going away in Obama's lifetime. We really don't have the time for foot dragging on the nuclear disarmament issue.

Where exactly do you see the word "civilian" in his description of Pearl Harbor? He said "unwarranted"--the issue was Pearl Harbor happened without a declaration of war.

And the ships weren't stationed there for an attack on Japan, but rather because that was their base. Hawaii is centrally located in the Pacific, it makes a good location for the Pacific fleet.

 

[Bronzeage]

You can only reach it by boat and I'm pretty sure this would mean a swim back.

And no doubt he'd be turned in by one of the many Japanese visitors who come to pay their respects.

Maybe not. The Japanese have some funny peccadilloes, if their porn is anything by which to judge. However, the last time I was there, about half the visitors were veterans and their families. The atmosphere is quite charged. Most people are speechless, those who can speak, whisper, and the rest are fighting tears.

The ride to the Arizona is after watching a documentary, which includes footage of the Arizona leaping out of the water and breaking in half. The experience gives a person glasses with 1941 corrective lens, which give a clear view that whatever happened to the Japanese after December 7, 1941, was on them.

 

[untermensche]

Is that why?

Who told you this?

If the US was so opposed to atrocities why did it carry out one of the worst atrocities in history in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos?

What the hell did we do that can compare to The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanking?

Deliberately kill millions. Mostly civilians.