Pride sucks

[abaddon]

My dictionary says pride is "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated". So it's not strictly about achievement.

People need to not twist the word's meaning, focusing on just the negative definitions and ignoring the positives, to make their points. So many other words would have clarified the point: conceit, arrogance, snobbery, et al.

How does it benefit you to go around and be proud of stuff?

Pride as a feeling of deep pleasure in accomplishment, one's beauty or intelligence or talent, or association with other valued persons, is a categorical good for being a healthful pleasure.

Wanting to feel proud is a tremendous motivator to achieve and do it well. A conceit that gets in the way of performance is something else than pride.

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So, how do you escape the old vortex effect of being proud of your humility? Isn't that the basic trope of the religionists who see pride as the basis of man's sinful nature?

In his autobiography, Benjamin Franklin writes about meeting a woman who was bedridden. She spent all her waking hours in prayer, except for once a week, when a Priest visited to hear her confession. He asked, what sin could she possibly committed, and the woman replied, "The closer I feel to God, the more difficult it becomes to resist feeling pride in my accomplishment."

That's body-hating Christianity for you. "Resist feeling" what you naturally feel.

 

[Treedbear]

At this point it seems we're down to definition. The definition you've provided doesn't seem to be the definition of 'pride'.

1.
a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2.
the state or feeling of being proud.
3.
a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4.
pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself:

Your definition sounds more like 'self-efficacious', with a mix of humility and realism.

3 and 4 are close to my meaning. 1 is definitely not.

Eldarion Lathria

1) Definitely not in any positive sense of the term. Superiority should lead to a sense of humility.

3) Dignity, self-respect, and self-esteem are positives and essential in order to function effectively in society. They should be defended. Allowing oneself to be disrespected leads to more of the same. It's not about being superior but about being equal. All social animals have pride in this sense.

 

[DBT]

And DBT, your examples of egocentric pride are what I call arrogance, and are things to be avoided. Real pride is calm, not puffy. It consists of a belief in your own worth, confidence in your own abilities, and an admission, without servility, that you have limits and there are things you cannot do, or cannot do well.

Eldarion Lathria

Pride may come in many different shades and intensities. A self of satisfaction at doing better at something, or being better in some way at the lower end of the scale, but verging on arrogance in its worst manifestations.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It seems we differ on the definition of humble.

From Merriam-Webster




Definition of humble
humbler \ˈhəm-b(ə-)lər\; humblest \ˈhəm-b(ə-)ləst\

1
: not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive

2
: reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission a humble apology

3
a : ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : insignificant, unpretentious : not costly or luxurious a humble contraption

Which of those definitions do you mean, Dr. Zoidberg? And DBT, your examples of egocentric pride are what I call arrogance, and are things to be avoided. Real pride is calm, not puffy. It consists of a belief in your own worth, confidence in your own abilities, and an admission, without servility, that you have limits and there are things you cannot do, or cannot do well.

Eldarion Lathria

I don't like any of them. I'll pick and mix parts from the first two. You can be humble and assertive. An MMA fighter who doesn't stay humble won't last long in the ring. But are of course assertive as hell. You can be reflective without being submissive. I do it all day in my function as boss. A boss who either isn't reflective or dominant will lose the respect of those he/she leads.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Pride as a feeling of deep pleasure in accomplishment, one's beauty or intelligence or talent, or association with other valued persons, is a categorical good for being a healthful pleasure.

Wanting to feel proud is a tremendous motivator to achieve and do it well. A conceit that gets in the way of performance is something else than pride.

And what do you think happens when you're up against something you thought you could master (because of your arrogance) but you couldn't? Do you think the feeling of badness outshines the happiness? If anything I think pride will make you avoid testing your abilities further, just so you get to hang onto the happiness.

 

[Treedbear]

Pride as a feeling of deep pleasure in accomplishment, one's beauty or intelligence or talent, or association with other valued persons, is a categorical good for being a healthful pleasure.

Wanting to feel proud is a tremendous motivator to achieve and do it well. A conceit that gets in the way of performance is something else than pride.

And what do you think happens when you're up against something you thought you could master (because of your arrogance) but you couldn't? Do you think the feeling of badness outshines the happiness? If anything I think pride will make you avoid testing your abilities further, just so you get to hang onto the happiness.

Except that then you become a quitter.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And what do you think happens when you're up against something you thought you could master (because of your arrogance) but you couldn't? Do you think the feeling of badness outshines the happiness? If anything I think pride will make you avoid testing your abilities further, just so you get to hang onto the happiness.

Except that then you become a quitter.

So your prime motivation in life is fear of shame? Sounds to me like you've got plenty to talk with your therapist about

 

[Treedbear]

Except that then you become a quitter.

So your prime motivation in life is fear of shame? Sounds to me like you've got plenty to talk with your therapist about

It would be a good thing if more people today had a sense of shame. Especially the bosses.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

I wonder how many of the urgers of humility are still slightly infected by the Jesus virus. "You two-legged sheep, you slaves better be humble. Or else your master will beat you." I mention no names, because I am not sure. But I slightly suspect it. It could be contact infection from the society.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[rousseau]

At this point we're discussing different definitions of pride. All points are valid because they're addressing fundamentally different things.

Dr. Zoidberg is downplaying the need for a sense of self importance. See Law of Jante

Others are describing the need for something like a sense of self-worth, self-esteem, and appreciation of one's own accomplishments.

As far as I read it, the thread is about the first, and not the second point.

 

[Treedbear]

I wonder how many of the urgers of humility are still slightly infected by the Jesus virus. "You two-legged sheep, you slaves better be humble. Or else your master will beat you." I mention no names, because I am not sure. But I slightly suspect it. It could be contact infection from the society.

Eldarion Lathria

You might be right. I was raised a RC and only escaped through the study of philosophy and science. I've replaced a belief in God with a belief in humanity. And I've learned that humility doesn't need to be based on a choice between self-loathing and self-righteous hubris. From an article in the Washington Post on leadership :

True humility, scientists have learned, is when someone has an accurate assessment of both his strengths and weaknesses, and he sees all this in the context of the larger whole. He’s a part of something far greater than he. He knows he isn’t the center of the universe. And he’s both grounded and liberated by this knowledge. Recognizing his abilities, he asks how he can contribute. Recognizing his flaws, he asks how he can grow.

Humility’s benefits turn out to be surprisingly concrete.

So it has a lot to do with being open-minded and inclusive, not defensive and insecure. Of course it works best when it inspires the same in others. I don't see what everyone is objecting to. If your at all interested you should read the article. There's a lot there.

 

[Treedbear]

So your prime motivation in life is fear of shame? Sounds to me like you've got plenty to talk with your therapist about

It would be a good thing if more people today had a sense of shame. Especially the bosses.

I think this discussion is becoming a little tangled. You replied to abaddon citing an example of arrogance, when as he specified that conceit was false pride. I was responding to the last point you made about the risk of unhappiness due to a potential loss of pride. If you act out of arrogance or conceit and fail then shame is the only reward. And the alternative of being a quitter is no better. But failure doesn't necessarily mean loss of pride when taken in the larger context provided by true humility. Unfortunately there are a lot of arrogant folks in positions of power. I consider Obama to be a very humble man who brought much wisdom and dignity to the office of President. But he was faced with overwhelming bigotry and hubris. The Republican party was shameless in showing no regard for him or his office. This is the contagion the USA faces on every level of society. Trump is only a symptom. (Sorry for the derail but it was an obvious example.)

 

[DBT]

So your prime motivation in life is fear of shame? Sounds to me like you've got plenty to talk with your therapist about

It would be a good thing if more people today had a sense of shame. Especially the bosses.

Like Government officials worldwide, Presidents, Prime Ministers, business executives, etc. Notably; CEO's.

 

[DBT]

At this point we're discussing different definitions of pride. All points are valid because they're addressing fundamentally different things.

Dr. Zoidberg is downplaying the need for a sense of self importance. See Law of Jante

Others are describing the need for something like a sense of self-worth, self-esteem, and appreciation of one's own accomplishments.

As far as I read it, the thread is about the first, and not the second point.

Legitimate importance in relation to position and responsibility may be distinguished from an over inflated sense of importance of oneself as a person.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I wonder how many of the urgers of humility are still slightly infected by the Jesus virus. "You two-legged sheep, you slaves better be humble. Or else your master will beat you." I mention no names, because I am not sure. But I slightly suspect it. It could be contact infection from the society.

Eldarion Lathria

It's not just Jesus. All religions emphasize the importance of humility. I suspect that it's something that humans have in all ages been struggling with

 

[DrZoidberg]

At this point we're discussing different definitions of pride. All points are valid because they're addressing fundamentally different things.

Dr. Zoidberg is downplaying the need for a sense of self importance. See Law of Jante

Jante is different. I'm talking about something that is personal. Something that goes on it your own head. Jante is a social thing. It's about how you present yourself to others. I'm not discussing that at all. If expressing pride works in your social setting, by all means. But you can do that while also having a healthy distance to it.

Others are describing the need for something like a sense of self-worth, self-esteem, and appreciation of one's own accomplishments.

You can have all that without inflating it artificially with pride. If you know your worth you don't need to cling to tokens accomplishments to prove it. The only people who need that is those who don't know their worth. Perhaps they should work on that instead?

 

[DBT]

It may be possible to be assertive, combative even, without the presence of overinflated pride or self absorbed narcissism, being neither humble or proud, instead taking the middle path.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It may be possible to be assertive, combative even, without the presence of overinflated pride or self absorbed narcissism, being neither humble or proud, instead taking the middle path.

There are several definitions of humility. I just mean the first one. Which I think is the most common usage. Humility means modesty, which is the middle path. It's neither arrogance nor subservience. Although a humble person can assume as subservient role if necessary. For example when talking with somebody who knows more than them. Being subservient and obedient when necessary is nothing to be ashamed of. You can have a humble attitude and still take a dominant position. If you truly are the best talent, you've earned it. That's just self knowledge. But of course doing so without rubbing other people's noses in it.

adjective, humbler, humblest.
1.
not proud or arrogant; modest:
to be humble although successful.
2.
having a feeling of insignificance, inferiority, subservience, etc.:
In the presence of so many world-famous writers I felt very humble.
3.
low in rank, importance, status, quality, etc.; lowly:
of humble origin; a humble home.
4.
courteously respectful:
In my humble opinion you are wrong.
5.
low in height, level, etc.; small in size:
a humble member of the galaxy.

 

[rousseau]

Jante is different. I'm talking about something that is personal. Something that goes on it your own head. Jante is a social thing. It's about how you present yourself to others. I'm not discussing that at all. If expressing pride works in your social setting, by all means. But you can do that while also having a healthy distance to it.

Others are describing the need for something like a sense of self-worth, self-esteem, and appreciation of one's own accomplishments.

You can have all that without inflating it artificially with pride. If you know your worth you don't need to cling to tokens accomplishments to prove it. The only people who need that is those who don't know their worth. Perhaps they should work on that instead?

It seems you might have misunderstood my post? I don't disagree with anything you've said, I'm mentioning that both sides of this discussion seem to be talking about different things. It's not really a 'debate' because you're not talking about the same topic.

You're talking about one definition of pride, and others are disagreeing with you while referencing a different definition. The two definitions are completely different elements of human character and so not subject to the same arguments.

As for the 'Law of Jante' I'm tying in the sense of self importance that's intrinsic to your definition of pride, to how one presents themselves to others. Maybe pride is sometimes in your own head, but it can (and usually does) translate to how you present yourself to others. To follow the laws of Jante is to have a true belief in them, which would mean you don't feel pride by your definition.

 

[Opoponax]

Pride can be a virtue if it is not taken to excess. What should be avoided is arrogance. If you are thundering about how much better you are than other people, you are not proud, you are arrogant. Arrogance, whatever its source, is offputting.

Eldarion Lathria

Ok. Fine. But then perhaps you could explain what possible benefit pride has? How does it benefit you to go around and be proud of stuff?

Pride in one's legitimate achievements is healthy. It gives you confidence going forward by removing mental barriers that might otherwise prevent you from accomplishing what you want to do next.

Most people likely agree that bloviating and bragging are off-putting. But what could possibly be wrong about feeling good about what you've accomplished? And there's nothing wrong with being proud of one's nation provided there are reasons to be proud of its collective achievements. Of course there's a difference between that and blind nationalism. I fail to see how it has to be either A or Z.