Pride sucks

[DrZoidberg]

I try to avoid feeling proud about stuff. When I do it's usually because I'm insecure about something, and my subconscious is desperate to prove to itself (ego) that I'm good enough. When I've figured out what it's about my feelings of pride disappear.

Lately I've started to see pride as a alluring corrupting trap of the ego. Things I'm successful about and I feel proud about, is usually only about me overcoming some hurdle. But a large part of that is that the hurdle was probably imaginary to begin with. Ie I thougt it was harder than it really was. Or I just got over it because I was lucky.

People who are proud of bigger things. Stuff like being proud of one's family or country, must have the worst self esteem in the world. That's all stuff outside of their control. Don't get me wrong, I tell people that I'm proud of them all the time, when they've done a good job. Not doing so would be impolite. But I'm not really proud of them.

Being proud about stuff is measuring yourself in performance and achievements. Ie, you have such a low view of yourself that you need to have things that are objectively measurable to feel any self love. Like you have to prove to yourself that you deserve life itself. Sad.

What I value is intimacy. Being seen and see somebody else completely and wholly. Being able to open up to another. Accepting them warts and all, and being accepted.

Anyhoo... just a flash of insight I had. Feel free to disagree.

 

[DBT]

Good points, nothing to argue with. It does appear to me that pride and self interest are the dominant drivers of human human behaviour as observed in the hierarchy and status of our organizations and as expressed in the structure and economic activity of our culture and society.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Good points, nothing to argue with. It does appear to me that pride and self interest are the dominant drivers of human human behaviour as observed in the hierarchy and status of our organizations and as expressed in the structure and economic activity of our culture and society.

Could it be because it's so common to be insecure? I think the driver to want to feel pride is similar to any desire. The drive is to feel it. But once we do the feeling quickly disappears and turns empty.

I also suspect that media and social media aren't helping. We're bombarded by people openly advertising everything they're proud about. Not so much the things they're ashamed of. Pride is completely normalised today. Not to mention that it's the primary driver behind nationalism.

 

[ideologyhunter]

So, how do you escape the old vortex effect of being proud of your humility? Isn't that the basic trope of the religionists who see pride as the basis of man's sinful nature?

 

[LordKiran]

So, how do you escape the old vortex effect of being proud of your humility? Isn't that the basic trope of the religionists who see pride as the basis of man's sinful nature?

The bible actually says there is such a thing as good pride in that it is well to be confident of yourself and what you're capable of, but no more than that. I don't really remember the specifics though.

 

[rousseau]

Along these lines, I think there are fundamentally two different types of people in the world:

1) Those who conform to standard metrics of cultural value (i.e. I have a BMW, an attractive wife, a big house therefore I'm better than you)
2) Those who don't (what's important is living my life how I want to live it, regardless of standard cultural values)

The first type of person is inside the box, living based on the narrative they've been told about life. The second type of person is outside the box, and instead thinks 'fuck that, this is all bullshit, I'm going to do what I want'. The first type of person feels proud when they reach arbitrary goals, the second type of person is just along for the ride.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So, how do you escape the old vortex effect of being proud of your humility? Isn't that the basic trope of the religionists who see pride as the basis of man's sinful nature?

But then you're not humble. That was an easy conundrum to solve

 

[Philos]

So, how do you escape the old vortex effect of being proud of your humility? Isn't that the basic trope of the religionists who see pride as the basis of man's sinful nature?

But then you're not humble. That was an easy conundrum to solve

Dr Z,

Agreed.

A.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Pride can be a virtue if it is not taken to excess. What should be avoided is arrogance. If you are thundering about how much better you are than other people, you are not proud, you are arrogant. Arrogance, whatever its source, is offputting.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[DrZoidberg]

Pride can be a virtue if it is not taken to excess. What should be avoided is arrogance. If you are thundering about how much better you are than other people, you are not proud, you are arrogant. Arrogance, whatever its source, is offputting.

Eldarion Lathria

Ok. Fine. But then perhaps you could explain what possible benefit pride has? How does it benefit you to go around and be proud of stuff?

 

[Under the Rose]

Can there not be some pride in challenging yourself and then achieving your objective? I am thinking in terms of athletic achievement or other such endeavor. Our species seems to thrive on challenge, even requires same.
Those who have participated in the Yukon Quest, as an example, do not view the accomplishment in terms of bettering others but as having participated in one of the most challenging events of recent decades.

I know for myself that the race was a defining point in that I learned things about myself and others that has changed my perspective on life and priorities. In competing three times, I experienced jubilation and achievement as well
as disappointment and learning to accept that having to quit an endeavor does not make one a quitter. Sometimes it is the only responsible thing to do.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Can there not be some pride in challenging yourself and then achieving your objective? I am thinking in terms of athletic achievement or other such endeavor. Our species seems to thrive on challenge, even requires same.
Those who have participated in the Yukon Quest, as an example, do not view the accomplishment in terms of bettering others but as having participated in one of the most challenging events of recent decades.

I know for myself that the race was a defining point in that I learned things about myself and others that has changed my perspective on life and priorities. In competing three times, I experienced jubilation and achievement as well
as disappointment and learning to accept that having to quit an endeavor does not make one a quitter. Sometimes it is the only responsible thing to do.

How would you going around feeling awesome about yourself help push you toward greater athletic achievement? I've been doing sports my entire life. As I matured with age and became more humble, I also became a better athlete. Won't pride just lead you to say "I did that, so I'm awesome. I can stop now."? I think pride just acts to get in the way of performance. And when you're pushing the limits of the human body humility is extremely important, or you just risk hurting yourself. People who throw their backs in the squat rack do it on the light weights when warming up. They don't respect the weight and do a sloppy job, and then hurt themselves.

When I overcome adversity, more than anything, I mostly feel that I know my limits better. It's not pride a feel. I remember running my first marathon. I never felt pride. The only emotion I felt was a sense of relief that I could do it.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Ok. Fine. But then perhaps you could explain what possible benefit pride has? How does it benefit you to go around and be proud of stuff?

Self respect. The ability to look another in the eye without quailing. The absence of servility. Of what benefit is constant humility? To not be proud of stuff? To believe others are better than you?

Eldarion Lathria

 

[rousseau]

Ok. Fine. But then perhaps you could explain what possible benefit pride has? How does it benefit you to go around and be proud of stuff?

Self respect. The ability to look another in the eye without quailing. The absence of servility. Of what benefit is constant humility? To not be proud of stuff? To believe others are better than you?

Eldarion Lathria

It's a logic problem. What do I have to be proud about, when my circumstances are mostly out of my own control? In that respect, pride is logically irrational, and to believe one has earned their place instead of acquired it by luck is foolish.

Pride also often means boasting, signalling about what one has accomplished. There's a quote that's pertinent here: 'the small dog barks the loudest'. Those who are accomplished, skilled, experienced, knowledgeable, don't have to tell people or dwell on it, their ability just speaks for itself. Thinking about one's own ability just has no practical use, all that's necessary is to continue being oneself.

 

[DBT]

I don't think servility or timidness is necessarily the default condition in the absence pride. A person may be confident without being proud. Friendly without pride. Taking pleasure your abilities or that of others, family members, etc, without the excess of egocentric pride - ''I am better or superior than others'' ''we are better than them'' and so on.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ok. Fine. But then perhaps you could explain what possible benefit pride has? How does it benefit you to go around and be proud of stuff?

Self respect. The ability to look another in the eye without quailing. The absence of servility. Of what benefit is constant humility? To not be proud of stuff? To believe others are better than you?

Eldarion Lathria

I think you're on to something. Pride is a mental tool to overcome insecurity. But I don't think it helps the underlying problem. How about working on your self esteem instead?

If you blow your ego up with pride, you'll always have to keep doing it, because it's essentially living a lie. Even if it might help you overcome tough moments I think, in the long run, it can only lead to an unhealthy mental space.

I think continually boosting your ego with pride will just make you more insecure. You must know somewhere it's just an act.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think servility or timidness is necessarily the default condition in the absence pride. A person may be confident without being proud. Friendly without pride. Taking pleasure your abilities or that of others, family members, etc, without the excess of egocentric pride - ''I am better or superior than others'' ''we are better than them'' and so on.

Exactly!

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

It seems we differ on the definition of humble.

From Merriam-Webster




Definition of humble
humbler \ˈhəm-b(ə-)lər\; humblest \ˈhəm-b(ə-)ləst\

1
: not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive

2
: reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission a humble apology

3
a : ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : insignificant, unpretentious : not costly or luxurious a humble contraption

Which of those definitions do you mean, Dr. Zoidberg? And DBT, your examples of egocentric pride are what I call arrogance, and are things to be avoided. Real pride is calm, not puffy. It consists of a belief in your own worth, confidence in your own abilities, and an admission, without servility, that you have limits and there are things you cannot do, or cannot do well.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[rousseau]

It seems we differ on the definition of humble.

From Merriam-Webster




Definition of humble
humbler \ˈhəm-b(ə-)lər\; humblest \ˈhəm-b(ə-)ləst\

1
: not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive

2
: reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission a humble apology

3
a : ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : insignificant, unpretentious : not costly or luxurious a humble contraption

Which of those definitions do you mean, Dr. Zoidberg? And DBT, your examples of egocentric pride are what I call arrogance, and are things to be avoided. Real pride is calm, not puffy. It consists of a belief in your own worth, confidence in your own abilities, and an admission, without servility, that you have limits and there are things you cannot do, or cannot do well.

Eldarion Lathria

At this point it seems we're down to definition. The definition you've provided doesn't seem to be the definition of 'pride'.

1.
a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2.
the state or feeling of being proud.
3.
a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4.
pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself:

Your definition sounds more like 'self-efficacious', with a mix of humility and realism.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

It seems we differ on the definition of humble.

From Merriam-Webster




Definition of humble
humbler \ˈhəm-b(ə-)lər\; humblest \ˈhəm-b(ə-)ləst\

1
: not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive

2
: reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission a humble apology

3
a : ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : insignificant, unpretentious : not costly or luxurious a humble contraption

Which of those definitions do you mean, Dr. Zoidberg? And DBT, your examples of egocentric pride are what I call arrogance, and are things to be avoided. Real pride is calm, not puffy. It consists of a belief in your own worth, confidence in your own abilities, and an admission, without servility, that you have limits and there are things you cannot do, or cannot do well.

Eldarion Lathria

At this point it seems we're down to definition. The definition you've provided doesn't seem to be the definition of 'pride'.

1.
a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2.
the state or feeling of being proud.
3.
a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4.
pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself:

Your definition sounds more like 'self-efficacious', with a mix of humility and realism.

3 and 4 are close to my meaning. 1 is definitely not.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Bronzeage]

So, how do you escape the old vortex effect of being proud of your humility? Isn't that the basic trope of the religionists who see pride as the basis of man's sinful nature?

In his autobiography, Benjamin Franklin writes about meeting a woman who was bedridden. She spent all her waking hours in prayer, except for once a week, when a Priest visited to hear her confession. He asked, what sin could she possibly committed, and the woman replied, "The closer I feel to God, the more difficult it becomes to resist feeling pride in my accomplishment."