Pride sucks

[DrZoidberg]

As for the 'Law of Jante' I'm tying in the sense of self importance that's intrinsic to your definition of pride, to how one presents themselves to others. Maybe pride is sometimes in your own head, but it can (and usually does) translate to how you present yourself to others. To follow the laws of Jante is to have a true belief in them, which would mean you don't feel pride by your definition.

What Jante says it that the higher your status the more you have to debase yourself. But everybody understands your higher status. An example of the opposite of Jante is Donald Trump. In Sweden he behaves like a low status man in some shitty suburb. The Swedes who absolutely can't flaunt their wealth are rich people. They will go out of their way to dress like shit for example. I work at IKEA. They've fired bosses for coming in a suit. You can have a suit, if you have a junior position. But once you start to climb, it's gotta go. Ingvar Kamprad takes this shit seriously. The only people here who have Gucci, Prada and Mikeal Kors visibly are the working class. For the rich it's just tacky. They still have expensive brands. They just don't flaunt it. We've of course got the same dynamic, where rich people need to prove their wealth through clothing and status objects. It just has to be done a hell of a lot more subtly in a Jante culture.

This isn't the same thing as everybody is equal. Everybody here knows that everybody isn't equal. Confusingly enough, the way you spot the guy at the table with the highest status is to look for the guy who is the nicest and who never talks about himself. So the status competition becomes a race to the bottom, where everybody tries to debase themselves to pull chicks. But the point is still to try to come off as having high status. So it's not really being humble. It's just appearing to be so. And the body language gives it away completely. Those with high status have the body language of somebody with high status.

When I was a Kombit in Denmark this autumn, they hired a group of new junior engineers straight from uni. On their first day, when they had their lunch they were seated in the middle of the dining room on a fully decked out table with personal waiters, a somelier and all the trimmings. Nobody else had this. The president of the company sat and ate with everybody else. Jante is also very much about raising up those with low status. Which is an aspect of Jante which I love, which is super nice.

So it's not as straight forward as it looks on the tin. It's to a large degree more about appearance, than substance. You can brag in a Jante culture, if you know how to do it. Just tell everybody how worthless you are. But look charming and happy when you do.

 

[rousseau]

As for the 'Law of Jante' I'm tying in the sense of self importance that's intrinsic to your definition of pride, to how one presents themselves to others. Maybe pride is sometimes in your own head, but it can (and usually does) translate to how you present yourself to others. To follow the laws of Jante is to have a true belief in them, which would mean you don't feel pride by your definition.

What Jante says it that the higher your status the more you have to debase yourself. But everybody understands your higher status. An example of the opposite of Jante is Donald Trump. In Sweden he behaves like a low status man in some shitty suburb. The Swedes who absolutely can't flaunt their wealth are rich people. They will go out of their way to dress like shit for example. I work at IKEA. They've fired bosses for coming in a suit. You can have a suit, if you have a junior position. But once you start to climb, it's gotta go. Ingvar Kamprad takes this shit seriously. The only people here who have Gucci, Prada and Mikeal Kors visibly are the working class. For the rich it's just tacky. They still have expensive brands. They just don't flaunt it. We've of course got the same dynamic, where rich people need to prove their wealth through clothing and status objects. It just has to be done a hell of a lot more subtly in a Jante culture.

This isn't the same thing as everybody is equal. Everybody here knows that everybody isn't equal. Confusingly enough, the way you spot the guy at the table with the highest status is to look for the guy who is the nicest and who never talks about himself. So the status competition becomes a race to the bottom, where everybody tries to debase themselves to pull chicks. But the point is still to try to come off as having high status. So it's not really being humble. It's just appearing to be so. And the body language gives it away completely. Those with high status have the body language of somebody with high status.

When I was a Kombit in Denmark this autumn, they hired a group of new junior engineers straight from uni. On their first day, when they had their lunch they were seated in the middle of the dining room on a fully decked out table with personal waiters, a somelier and all the trimmings. Nobody else had this. The president of the company sat and ate with everybody else. Jante is also very much about raising up those with low status. Which is an aspect of Jante which I love, which is super nice.

So it's not as straight forward as it looks on the tin. It's to a large degree more about appearance, than substance. You can brag in a Jante culture, if you know how to do it. Just tell everybody how worthless you are. But look charming and happy when you do.

Yea you'd know more about them than me, I learned the term from you, and live in a society where it's not indicative of social customs.

When I read them at first I didn't see them as a way of acting, but rather an authentic way of thinking. For instance, 'you're not to think anyone cares about you'.. that's just a logical conclusion to make, because assuming such is presumptuous and a bit egoist. So I guess, aside from how they're applied in practice in Sweden, they're pretty solid principles in general.

 

[untermensche]

I wonder how many of the urgers of humility are still slightly infected by the Jesus virus. "You two-legged sheep, you slaves better be humble. Or else your master will beat you." I mention no names, because I am not sure. But I slightly suspect it. It could be contact infection from the society.

Eldarion Lathria

It's not just Jesus. All religions emphasize the importance of humility. I suspect that it's something that humans have in all ages been struggling with

No. It is something masters and want-to-be masters have struggled with.

How do I make these sheep more pliable? How can I best exploit them?

Take away their natural pride in themselves and all they are. Take away the knowledge that they ARE important.

That is a good first step.

When you throw away Christian dogma you have to also throw away all the garbage the leaders (masters) used to make the herd more manageable.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's not just Jesus. All religions emphasize the importance of humility. I suspect that it's something that humans have in all ages been struggling with

No. It is something masters and want-to-be masters have struggled with.

How do I make these sheep more pliable? How can I best exploit them?

Take away their natural pride in themselves and all they are. Take away the knowledge that they ARE important.

That is a good first step.

When you throw away Christian dogma you have to also throw away all the garbage the leaders (masters) used to make the herd more manageable.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Religion may have been exploited by the powerful to control people. But if you look at the creation and spread of all religions the evidence indicate that it's a bottom up process. The first converts to any new religion are always those at the extreme bottom of society. And then it spreads upwards. The powerful elites are always the last converts.

 

[untermensche]

No. It is something masters and want-to-be masters have struggled with.

How do I make these sheep more pliable? How can I best exploit them?

Take away their natural pride in themselves and all they are. Take away the knowledge that they ARE important.

That is a good first step.

When you throw away Christian dogma you have to also throw away all the garbage the leaders (masters) used to make the herd more manageable.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Religion may have been exploited by the powerful to control people. But if you look at the creation and spread of all religions the evidence indicate that it's a bottom up process. The first converts to any new religion are always those at the extreme bottom of society. And then it spreads upwards. The powerful elites are always the last converts.

Religion is a ring in a bull's nose

Remove your ring.

Be proud of yourself and everything you do.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Religion may have been exploited by the powerful to control people. But if you look at the creation and spread of all religions the evidence indicate that it's a bottom up process. The first converts to any new religion are always those at the extreme bottom of society. And then it spreads upwards. The powerful elites are always the last converts.

Religion is a ring in a bull's nose

Remove your ring.

Be proud of yourself and everything you do.

Now you've changed the subject. Marx said it the best. "religion is the opium of the masses". That's something completely different than a tool for the elites to control us by.

Life isn't easy. A lot of people don't have the mental strength to face life as it really is. Some people turn to a form of opium. Just to numb themselves from the pain of life. Some religions, like Buddhism, have woven the acceptance of this is pain into it's theology.

People are not going to remove "the ring" unless they feel safe and strong enough to do so. How about starting in that end? The Nordic countries are a good example. If you have a strong welfare system religion will die. Because people will have no use for it anymore.

 

[untermensche]

Religion is a ring in a bull's nose

Remove your ring.

Be proud of yourself and everything you do.

Now you've changed the subject. Marx said it the best. "religion is the opium of the masses". That's something completely different than a tool for the elites to control us by.

Life isn't easy. A lot of people don't have the mental strength to face life as it really is. Some people turn to a form of opium. Just to numb themselves from the pain of life. Some religions, like Buddhism, have woven the acceptance of this is pain into it's theology.

People are not going to remove "the ring" unless they feel safe and strong enough to do so. How about starting in that end? The Nordic countries are a good example. If you have a strong welfare system religion will die. Because people will have no use for it anymore.

I did not change the subject.

These prescriptions against pride are religious.

They serve no purpose other than to make one easily led.

 

[DrZoidberg]

These prescriptions against pride are religious.

They serve no purpose other than to make one easily led.

Ehe? I think it's more you like having an absurdly simplistic view of this and therefore don't understand you changed the subject. There's something for you to ponder.

I think you're just flat out wrong. I think the purpose of the religious encouragements of humility is to help us. Genuinely giving us good advice. I don't think there's any other reason to have them there.

Communism is actually exactly the same in this regard. The radical equality is also about letting go of pride and accepting and valuing being just one in the crowd. Cherishing not being special.

 

[untermensche]

These prescriptions against pride are religious.

They serve no purpose other than to make one easily led.

Ehe? I think it's more you like having an absurdly simplistic view of this and therefore don't understand you changed the subject. There's something for you to ponder.

I think you're just flat out wrong. I think the purpose of the religious encouragements of humility is to help us. Genuinely giving us good advice. I don't think there's any other reason to have them there.

Communism is actually exactly the same in this regard. The radical equality is also about letting go of pride and accepting and valuing being just one in the crowd. Cherishing not being special.

You haven't convinced me.

You striving to show me wrong is that great pride I talk about.

Nothing wrong with it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You haven't convinced me.

You striving to show me wrong is that great pride I talk about.

Nothing wrong with it.

It happens. But I try to avoid it. Ego-driven discussions are worthless for me since the pride/ego prevents me from learning. I constantly remind myself to stay humble in discussions. The reason why I have to keep reminding myself is because I keep forgetting. But I try my best. Pride still sucks.

 

[untermensche]

You haven't convinced me.

You striving to show me wrong is that great pride I talk about.

Nothing wrong with it.

It happens. But I try to avoid it. Ego-driven discussions are worthless for me since the pride/ego prevents me from learning. I constantly remind myself to stay humble in discussions. The reason why I have to keep reminding myself is because I keep forgetting. But I try my best. Pride still sucks.

What is needed is an honest pride.

A pride in things worthy of praise.

Trying to squash productive impulses is irrational.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It happens. But I try to avoid it. Ego-driven discussions are worthless for me since the pride/ego prevents me from learning. I constantly remind myself to stay humble in discussions. The reason why I have to keep reminding myself is because I keep forgetting. But I try my best. Pride still sucks.

What is needed is an honest pride.

A pride in things worthy of praise.

Trying to squash productive impulses is irrational.

Logical phalacy. That's just self serving bias. Ie "anything I'm proud of is positive. Anything you're proud of is negative".

 

[untermensche]

What is needed is an honest pride.

A pride in things worthy of praise.

Trying to squash productive impulses is irrational.

Logical phalacy. That's just self serving bias. Ie "anything I'm proud of is positive. Anything you're proud of is negative".

So what?

You have demonstrated no harm.

I have show you the good.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Logical phalacy. That's just self serving bias. Ie "anything I'm proud of is positive. Anything you're proud of is negative".

So what?

You have demonstrated no harm.

I have show you the good.

Ehe... you demonstred harm. Ego inflation leading to less accurate self knowledge. Unnecessary misunderstandings. Over inflated ego leads to unnecessary conflicts. Failure. An inability to understand your failure. It leads to people unnecessarily offending others, as well as being offended by others. I can't think of a single good thing about it. It leads to joy. Woop-de-fucking-do. But it's false joy. So when reality hits you in the face, I wonder if the sadness of the reality check is greater than the joy you managed to squeeze from it initially.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Stockholm truck-terrorist is an excellent example of how pride sucks. The guy came here from Uzbekistan three years ago. He had a wife and four kids. Perhaps he told them things were going better than they were? They were perhaps proud of him? He felt shitty because he didn't live up to their pride in him. Then he got the final ruling, leave Sweden. He went underground. He came into contact with Muslim extremists. Perhaps he couldn't face the shame shame of coming home empty handed with all his promises being revealed as lies? By committing suicide in the name of Allah he could perhaps salvage some pride. So he did it, but failed. He couldn't even kill himself properly. Failed at this like he failed at everything else in his life.

I don't think pride helped him one bit. I think it was pride that propelled him towards the terror attack.

 

[untermensche]

So what?

You have demonstrated no harm.

I have show you the good.

Ehe... you demonstred harm. Ego inflation leading to less accurate self knowledge. Unnecessary misunderstandings. Over inflated ego leads to unnecessary conflicts. Failure. An inability to understand your failure. It leads to people unnecessarily offending others, as well as being offended by others. I can't think of a single good thing about it. It leads to joy. Woop-de-fucking-do. But it's false joy. So when reality hits you in the face, I wonder if the sadness of the reality check is greater than the joy you managed to squeeze from it initially.

There is no good is being a humble worm.

One might as well be dead if one has no pride.

And you clearly have a lot. Which gives you some worth as a human.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ehe... you demonstred harm. Ego inflation leading to less accurate self knowledge. Unnecessary misunderstandings. Over inflated ego leads to unnecessary conflicts. Failure. An inability to understand your failure. It leads to people unnecessarily offending others, as well as being offended by others. I can't think of a single good thing about it. It leads to joy. Woop-de-fucking-do. But it's false joy. So when reality hits you in the face, I wonder if the sadness of the reality check is greater than the joy you managed to squeeze from it initially.

There is no good is being a humble worm.

One might as well be dead if one has no pride.

And you clearly have a lot. Which gives you some worth as a human.

So being honest with yourself leads to being a "worm"? It sounds to me like you've grown so accustomed to inflating your ego that you're terrified of what you'll find if you would ever stop.

 

[untermensche]

There is no good is being a humble worm.

One might as well be dead if one has no pride.

And you clearly have a lot. Which gives you some worth as a human.

So being honest with yourself leads to being a "worm"? It sounds to me like you've grown so accustomed to inflating your ego that you're terrified of what you'll find if you would ever stop.

I think you are taking yourself a bit too seriously.

There is no ultimate answer here.

But not feeling proud about one's accomplishments is a way to accomplish very little.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So being honest with yourself leads to being a "worm"? It sounds to me like you've grown so accustomed to inflating your ego that you're terrified of what you'll find if you would ever stop.

I think you are taking yourself a bit too seriously.

There is no ultimate answer here.

But not feeling proud about one's accomplishments is a way to accomplish very little.

How about enjoying the process? The joy of growing and learning? I'd say using pride in accomplishment as your main source of motivation is a sure way to make yourself unhappy. If you find joy in the process you'll find joy in projects even when you fail. That's a win=win

edit: which btw is the advice given by everybody self made who has gotten rich. It's exceedingly rare to become rich if your goal is to become rich. For the very reason you give. If you'll only find joy once you've succeeded (which everybody knows is dodgy) it's virtually impossible to keep up the steam.

 

[untermensche]

I think you are taking yourself a bit too seriously.

There is no ultimate answer here.

But not feeling proud about one's accomplishments is a way to accomplish very little.

How about enjoying the process? The joy of growing and learning? I'd say using pride in accomplishment as your main source of motivation is a sure way to make yourself unhappy. If you find joy in the process you'll find joy in projects even when you fail. That's a win=win

There is nothing that stops somebody who takes pride in the overall accomplishment from also enjoying the process.

Nietzsche is helpful here.

The idea that the truths of one are not necessarily the truths of another. Truths are sometimes hard won.

The notion that there are universal truths of behavior is a religious notion. On the extremes sure, murder and rape clearly have victims. With pride it is not so clear.

If not having pride gives you pleasure then you are seeking your pleasure. Not seeking any truth.

Go for it.