Pro-Lifer says, "Let them die if it costs me money"

[ZiprHead]

Funny how there's always plenty of money to keep millionaires and billionaires afloat but when regular people need help it's "suck it up, buttercup."

And Lindsey fucking Graham is right now saying unemployment benefits are too big and need to be scaled back.

 

[funinspace]

So _that's_ what "Pro-Life" means! It means, only if the people constrained are sexually active women.
But if "Pro-Life" harms people like me, and my wallet, then "let them die, and they'll be glad for the sacrifice!"

Rep. Trey Hollingsworth (R-IN) sat for an interview with a radio station in his home state on Tuesday. And he said that, as far as he is concerned, America should re-open again sooner rather than later. He described people dying as "the lesser of two evils" when compared to allowing the economy to collapse. He also said that when choosing between protecting American lives and protecting the American way of life, the latter should win out, as it always has won out.

Sadly, there are far too many that think this way, and go ape shit about abortion and its trade offs. Ironically, the only 'right to life' people I have any respect for is the RCC within their theology on life. At least they are consistent, in rarely supporting war making (i.e. it is treated as a last resort thing, not a hammer in search of a nail), and they are against the death penalty. OTOH, a large portion of the fundagelicals are hypocritical as can possibly be, by twisting their theology to support their pathetic politics.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Except that’s not his argument (profit over lives) as well you know.

Correct. He said:

But certainly the social scientists are telling us about the economic disaster that is going on. Our GDP is supposed to be down 20% alone this quarter. It is policymakers’ decision to put on our big boy and big girl pants and say it is the lesser of these two evils. It is not zero evil, but it is the lesser of these two evils and we intend to move forward that direction. That is our responsibility and to abdicate that is to insult the Americans that voted us into office.

He says he needs bigger pants, and that we need to tell America that x number of dead people is less harm overall than an economic freeze... which could potentially be mitigated. If we let this bug out, 0.5ish% of the country (over 1 million people) will die of Covid-19, and probably another 0.5ish% will die due to lack of access to health care.

So the bullshit in his statement is that he doesn't put a number there. IE how many dead Covid-19 patients and how many dead other people is a lesser sum than a mitigated economic freeze. This idiot, much like every other free-market evangelist, doesn't get that the cases in the US are plateau'd and any opening up will increase the number of cases and it can not be mitigated through tracking. It spreads too simply because most people can't tell they have it.

The virus doesn't give a damn about the economy or borders. And we still don't know if antibodies are developing in those who have contracted the virus. So the herders might be off too.

 

[TSwizzle]

If we let this bug out, 0.5ish% of the country (over 1 million people) will die of Covid-19, and probably another 0.5ish% will die due to lack of access to health care.

Very, very few people "die of Covid-19". Even fewer young, healthy people. That's not to say it's not a serious problem but the hysteria has been ratcheted up to eleven and people are acting irrationally.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If we let this bug out, 0.5ish% of the country (over 1 million people) will die of Covid-19, and probably another 0.5ish% will die due to lack of access to health care.

Very, very few people "die of Covid-19". Even fewer young, healthy people. That's not to say it's not a serious problem but the hysteria has been ratcheted up to eleven and people are acting irrationally.

Interesting distinction. Sounds like an NRA, Covid-19 doesn't kill people, the acute respiratory disease that people who are medically susceptible kills people, like argument. Also, the semantical argument doesn't adjust the death toll lower.

Also I thought you liked the empty roads.

 

[TSwizzle]

Interesting distinction. Sounds like an NRA, Covid-19 doesn't kill people, the acute respiratory disease that people who are medically susceptible kills people, like argument.

Behave yourself. People die all the time from one thing or another. I'm far from convinced that we need these draconian lock down, shelter in place orders to stave off death in people who's time was almost up anyway. We've done enough. Let's get back to as near normal as we can and try to protect the at risk.

Also I thought you liked the empty roads.

I do but they are starting to get busy again.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Interesting distinction. Sounds like an NRA, Covid-19 doesn't kill people, the acute respiratory disease that people who are medically susceptible kills people, like argument.

Behave yourself. People die all the time from one thing or another.

I'll inform the press on your recent discovery that we are actually not immortal.

I'm far from convinced that we need these draconian lock down, shelter in place orders to stave off death in people who's time was almost up anyway.

You don't seem to understand what "susceptible" means. This isn't only killing the uber-frail that were all laying in palliative care beds.

We've done enough.

We've done enough to reduce the number of infected by about 4X. The math doesn't go away because you feel it is enough.

Let's get back to as near normal as we can and try to protect the at risk.

How? We are at 25,000 to 30,000 confirmed new cases a day nationally with a soft shutdown. It'll be out of hand in about 4 weeks and we get to do this all over a again.

 

[Jokodo]

If we let this bug out, 0.5ish% of the country (over 1 million people) will die of Covid-19, and probably another 0.5ish% will die due to lack of access to health care.

Very, very few people "die of Covid-19". Even fewer young, healthy people. That's not to say it's not a serious problem but the hysteria has been ratcheted up to eleven and people are acting irrationally.

In NYC, there have been well over three months' worth of deaths within one month from mid March to mid April.

More than half of the confirmed COVID deaths and about half of the suspected ones where demographic details have been recorded were in people younger than 75.

Even the deaths where is COVID neither confirmed nor currently suspected are over 3000 in excess of the number that would normally die in a month. It doesn't say so in the linked pdf but a typical number to die per day in the city is around 170. Over the period if this report, the average was 580+

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/dow...-deaths-confirmed-probable-daily-04152020.pdf

 

[Keith&Co.]

. It'll be out of hand in about 4 weeks and we get to do this all over a again.

no, we won't go thru this again. If we sitbthru this until it's all better, we'll be exhausted but feel like we accomplished something.
If we come out of the soft shutdown and thousands die, the feeling will be that we suffered znd it still wasn't enough. So the general attitude will be, 'fuck. Why bust your ass? With or without isolation, death just rollerskates thru the population, any old way.'

No one will listen to, 'come on, guys, THIS TIME it'll work! Please?'
They'll be at their favorite bar, ordering a vodka fatalism and toasting absent friends...

Also, 'time was almost up?' The sailor on the Roosevelt that died, how does Swiz know he was a short-timer?

 

[TSwizzle]

I'll inform the press on your recent discovery that we are actually not immortal.

Also inform them that I am not trying to achieve immortality. (which appears to be the goal of this hysteria)

This isn't only killing the uber-frail that were all laying in palliative care beds.

Where did I say that was the case ?

We've done enough to reduce the number of infected by about 4X. The math doesn't go away because you feel it is enough.

So now we are pretty much on top of things enough to start easing up on the draconian shelter in place stuff. Try to keep the 90 year old obese grandmas as safe as you can but she's gotta go sometime. The outliers are tragedies but there are risks to life.

How? We are at 25,000 to 30,000 confirmed new cases a day nationally with a soft shutdown. It'll be out of hand in about 4 weeks and we get to do this all over a again.

Not necessarily, people are aware and taking precautions as best they can. We can't hide at home forever. Or at least I'm not going to.

 

[ronburgundy]

If we let this bug out, 0.5ish% of the country (over 1 million people) will die of Covid-19, and probably another 0.5ish% will die due to lack of access to health care.

Very, very few people "die of Covid-19". Even fewer young, healthy people. That's not to say it's not a serious problem but the hysteria has been ratcheted up to eleven and people are acting irrationally.

Is your bolded "of" an attempt to promote the right-wing lie than anyone who dies with "underlying conditions" didn't actually die "of" Covid? Because that is anti-science nonsense rejected by medical assessments. The vast majority of people who have died in the past month after being diagnosed with COVID have died of COVID. Given how few Americans have been tested, the odds that you would have died from something else anyway and just happened to be among the few tested is low. Also, "Underlying conditions" include things like diabetes and asthma that your very unlikely to die from in a given month. It also includes general immunodeficiency which is not a cause of death but merely makes you more vulnerable to be killed by things like COVID, making those things like COVID the primary cause of death. Same goes for other "conditions" like liver and kidney disease which people can live for decades with, unless a lethal disease like Covid comes along and takes them out. Post-mortem tests are rare and people being treated for things like kidney disease that don't result in covid symptoms are not being tested.

Also, 30% of deaths are below age 64 and another 25% are still below the median age of death and thus likely has decades to live.

And the real death rate among those diagnosed is about 8% in the US. Dying from it takes time, so there is at least a 1 week lag between diagnosis and death. Which means all new diagnosed cases from at least the last week need to be excluded, making the diagnosed death rate about 33k / 400k = 8%. And yes, it is mostly the sick and vulnerable being tested, but not entirely. Rich and connected people, a many very healthy pro athletes are getting tested even with no symptoms at all. Plus, b/c of the terrible healthcare system, there are countless people who are quite sick who still cannot get tested or haven't tried to get tested b/c they have no healthcare.

So while the death rate among the infected but undiagnosed is definitely lower than 8%, it isn't as drastically lower as you assume. Even if it's 5 times lower that puts the gen pop death rate at 1.5%. And that is with assuming zero limit on the number of patients the healthcare system can treat at once. Without the lockdown, we'd already be past capacity, equipment, and doctors at many hospitals. That would cause many people who would have recovered to die, plus deaths from completely unrelated illness and accidents that could not be treated properly b/c there is no capacity in the system.

The US has had 18,000 Covid deaths in past week and those were people sick a week ago. There were 35% more actively sick (not dead or recovered) this week than last week, meaning the probable deaths this week will be about 24,000, and more than that the week after. We'll be close to 100,000 US deaths by the end of April after 6 weeks of lockdown. So that number could easily have been 500,000 to 1 million without the lock down, just due to increased infection rates. Adding the additional lives lost by maxing out the healthcare system, and a reasonable estimate of lives saved due to 6 weeks of lockdown from mid-March to end of April is around 1 million Americans.

It's stunning how dangerously stupid right wingers are when they point to current modest numbers of deaths that are only modest b/c of the lockdown and say "See, it's not that bad, we don't need this lockdown."

Oh, and Sweden does not have a lockdown. They have 3-10 times the COVID deaths per capita of all other Nordic countries, despite a well equipt healthcare system. In fact, when you adjust for population density which creates natural social distancing, Sweden's deaths per Capita is highest in the developed world due to their unique decision not to have a lockdown. The USA ranks not far behind b/c our lockdowns were so incompetently late and/or unenforced due almost entirely to Trump and his fellow Republican governors and mayors.

 

[TSwizzle]

Is your bolded "of" an attempt to promote the right-wing lie than anyone who dies with "underlying conditions" didn't actually die "of" Covid? {snip irrelevant screed}

I'm just pointing out the facts fella.

 

[Jokodo]

Is your bolded "of" an attempt to promote the right-wing lie than anyone who dies with "underlying conditions" didn't actually die "of" Covid? {snip irrelevant screed}

I'm just pointing out the facts fella.

How do your "facts" explain the fact that between March 11 and April 14, almost 19,000 NYC residents died, or more than 13,000 more than usual for the period? At least 4500 of those under the age of 75? That's only among confirmed COVID-19 deaths and probable ones where demographic data have been reported. This leaves another roughly 2000 probable ones, and another 9000 deaths not currently attributed to the disease (this alone an excess if 3000+) whose ages have not been reported yet.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Where did I say that was the case ? ... Try to keep the 90 year old obese grandmas as safe as you can but she's gotta go sometime.

Same post, no less.

So now we are pretty much on top of things enough to start easing up on the draconian shelter in place stuff.

Congratulations! We didn’t realize you had just completed your doctorate in infectious diseases.

We can't hide at home forever.

“Hide”?

Or at least I'm not going to.

Right, because it’s all about you. Well you go girl! No one’s going to tell YOU what to be afraid of, because that’s all it is; fear. In fact, you should go directly to the nearest hospital and lick every patient you can find and shoot up all the heroin on the planet with blood encrusted needles and play Russian roulette every night! YEAH! You’re no 90 year old obese grandma coward hiding in your home. You’re no outlier!

Hell, there’s only a one in five chance you’ll pull the trigger on the live round at any given spin. Those are totally reasonable odds requiring no draconian measures and if your number’s up, your number’s up.

Just make sure that when you put the gun to your temple that there is no one standing next to you on the other side (or in the room next door) and that way you too will have taken precautions as best you can to not inadvertently kill someone else with your brazen stupidity and arrogance.

Will your cats be able to text us when you “win”?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Where did I say that was the case ?

"Try to keep the 90 year old obese grandmas as safe as you can but she's gotta go sometime."

So now we are pretty much on top of things enough to start easing up on the draconian shelter in place stuff. Try to keep the 90 year old obese grandmas as safe as you can but she's gotta go sometime. The outliers are tragedies but there are risks to life.

Yeah, like sociopaths.

How? We are at 25,000 to 30,000 confirmed new cases a day nationally with a soft shutdown. It'll be out of hand in about 4 weeks and we get to do this all over a again.

Not necessarily, people are aware and taking precautions as best they can.

We are taking precautions and staying at home and there are still that many new cases every day.

We can't hide at home forever.

No one is saying that we should.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Interesting distinction. Sounds like an NRA, Covid-19 doesn't kill people, the acute respiratory disease that people who are medically susceptible kills people, like argument.

Behave yourself. People die all the time from one thing or another. I'm far from convinced that we need these draconian lock down, shelter in place orders to stave off death in people who's time was almost up anyway. We've done enough. Let's get back to as near normal as we can and try to protect the at risk.

It's right wing fiction that the deaths are people whose time was almost up anyway. That's what the flu generally does, Covid-19 takes plenty of people with health issues that you can live with for decades. It's also killing a decent number of people who simply were heavily exposed, giving the virus a big head start.

 

[ronburgundy]

Is your bolded "of" an attempt to promote the right-wing lie than anyone who dies with "underlying conditions" didn't actually die "of" Covid? {snip irrelevant screed}

I'm just pointing out the facts fella.

The only fact in your post is that someone is less likely to die if they are younger. In contrast, my reply was filled with facts that refute your false implications, but which you predictably ignored as all faith-based dogmatists do.

 

[TSwizzle]

"Try to keep the 90 year old obese grandmas as safe as you can but she's gotta go sometime."

FFS, behave yourself. Here is what you said that I was replying to "This isn't only killing the uber-frail that were all laying in palliative care beds.

We can't hide at home forever.
No one is saying that we should.

Fair enough but the point is, the lock downs have gone on long enough and yet there is no sign (other than some vague mentions) of things being eased up.

 

[TSwizzle]

The only fact in your post is that your less likely to die if your younger.

A fact that matters

In contrast, my reply was filled with facts that refute your false implications, but which you predictably ignored as all faith-based dogmatists do.

Your reply attacked an argument I never made.

 

[Half-Life]

We are at 25,000 to 30,000 confirmed new cases a day nationally with a soft shutdown. It'll be out of hand in about 4 weeks and we get to do this all over a again.

That's just hysteria.

Remember when Trump killed Solemani and all you guys were saying, "THIS IS WORLD WAR 3!!!! THIS IS GONNA BE A DISASTER!!!" and now there's crickets about it. No war, no disaster.

Stop the fear mongering.