Progressiveness Gone Wild

[southernhybrid]

Considering that women are still usually paid a bit less compared to men, often even when doing the same job,

Women do not get paid less for the same job, when correcting for confounders such as hours worked or experience. That is a feminist canard that is unfortunately still explicitly believed.

Women are paid less than men.

Thank you for the link. I know it's often true in nursing, that women are paid less than men in the same jobs.

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

 

[pood]

Like clockwork.

 

[Elixir]

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

Sure.
But it becomes reasonable when corrected for confounders like how much some people don't like women, others are scared of women and still others are so confused that they'll latch onto anything that feels good at the moment. /s

Of course in truth there are varying degrees of all three of those things in most all of us, especially us males.... I simply don't like it when people get hurt, and worse when they are abused. I suppose belittling women with monetary inequality somehow bolsters the self esteem of some, but is a market decision really.

We ended up hiring a lot of women, largely because some of the production work required manual dexterity and small fingers were an asset. We targeted a woman for our COO, gave her some stock and she became a super valuable partner. Production managers, Shipping managers mostly women who worked their way up in production.
Some other Companies require a lot of physical exertion, and bigger might be better. I suppose if men could typically work with tiny things with gloves on for long stretches, do customer service and accounting, and be able to overhead press 400 pounds, they might be typically worth more than the typical woman to a Company like ours. But I don't think that's typically the case. So I typically favor legislation meant to help enforce a degree of fairness, or at least address the worst cases of abuse..

In nursing, does the scarcity of male nurses might contribute to their price, even if they aren't any better at it than women?
Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[ZiprHead]

Should restaurants and bookstores and other establishments be permitted to offer discounts to seniors, to students, and to health-care workers? And I know places in NYC that do that all the time, not just once in a while.

Technically seniors, no. That's illegal age discrimination.

Students and healthcare workers are not protected classes so therefore not illegal.

 

[pood]

Should restaurants and bookstores and other establishments be permitted to offer discounts to seniors, to students, and to health-care workers? And I know places in NYC that do that all the time, not just once in a while.

Technically seniors, no. That's illegal age discrimination.

Students and healthcare workers are not protected classes so therefore not illegal.

Well, seniors here in NYC get a lot of discounts, among them at the local grocery store. That would be age discrimination against non-seniors? So far as I know, no one has litigated it yet, but given the vast numbers of lawyers at large, I suppose it’s only a matter of time. Shakespeare’s well-known advice about what to do with lawyers still stands.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yup, this was a money making scheme by a few lawyers. Not the poorly thought out cause the OP attributed to it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

From the article:

Earlier this year in California, the minor-league baseball team Fresno Grizzlies was sued over a promotional event for women.
But while the law was created to counter discrimination, the intentions of those who file such lawsuits have come under scrutiny, with some calling them opportunistic and exploitative. San Diego lawyer Alfred Rava has filed hundreds of lawsuits across California against women’s organizations and women-only events, from the Grizzlies’ promotion to female-led startups to Mother’s Day freebies, claiming they’re unfair to men.

Fresno Grizzlies having a promotional event for women is indeed gender discrimination. It is sexist to say that discrimination only matters when it discriminates against women. Same goes for women-only events, or giving preferential treatment to women-led businesses.

Is it discrimination... or is it trying to get more women into the stadium (an under-tapped revenue source for sports)? Are we going to say a bobble-head giveaway promotion is discrimination too... just towards people that like bobble-heads? Certainly, those folks aren't a protected class, but still, the question is what is the basis of the promotion. Bars promote ladies night to sell more alcohol. Minor league baseball teams have promotions to sell more tickets, maybe ever get the kids to come and sell more concessions.

If they raise revenue, they have won. They are giving discounted access to get people to show up who otherwise wouldn't have shown up or to pay what they otherwise wouldn't have paid.

 

[RVonse]

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

Sure.
But it becomes reasonable when corrected for confounders like how much some people don't like women, others are scared of women and still others are so confused that they'll latch onto anything that feels good at the moment. /s

Of course in truth there are varying degrees of all three of those things in most all of us, especially us males.... I simply don't like it when people get hurt, and worse when they are abused. I suppose belittling women with monetary inequality somehow bolsters the self esteem of some, but is a market decision really.

We ended up hiring a lot of women, largely because some of the production work required manual dexterity and small fingers were an asset. We targeted a woman for our COO, gave her some stock and she became a super valuable partner. Production managers, Shipping managers mostly women who worked their way up in production.
Some other Companies require a lot of physical exertion, and bigger might be better. I suppose if men could typically work with tiny things with gloves on for long stretches, do customer service and accounting, and be able to overhead press 400 pounds, they might be typically worth more than the typical woman to a Company like ours. But I don't think that's typically the case. So I typically favor legislation meant to help enforce a degree of fairness, or at least address the worst cases of abuse..

In nursing, does the scarcity of male nurses might contribute to their price, even if they aren't any better at it than women?
Wouldn't surprise me.

Exactly correct. With free market capitalism it is a given that men and women are paid equitably assuming the government does not interfere. And we know this without reading about it in the fake news. Because if it was somehow possible woman could be paid less than a man for exactly the same work, every business would compete to hire those women instead of those men. Hiring the cheapest labor is the smartest compulsion of a CEO decision in free market capitalism.

Derec has to be right about this.

 

[bilby]

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

Sure.
But it becomes reasonable when corrected for confounders like how much some people don't like women, others are scared of women and still others are so confused that they'll latch onto anything that feels good at the moment. /s

Of course in truth there are varying degrees of all three of those things in most all of us, especially us males.... I simply don't like it when people get hurt, and worse when they are abused. I suppose belittling women with monetary inequality somehow bolsters the self esteem of some, but is a market decision really.

We ended up hiring a lot of women, largely because some of the production work required manual dexterity and small fingers were an asset. We targeted a woman for our COO, gave her some stock and she became a super valuable partner. Production managers, Shipping managers mostly women who worked their way up in production.
Some other Companies require a lot of physical exertion, and bigger might be better. I suppose if men could typically work with tiny things with gloves on for long stretches, do customer service and accounting, and be able to overhead press 400 pounds, they might be typically worth more than the typical woman to a Company like ours. But I don't think that's typically the case. So I typically favor legislation meant to help enforce a degree of fairness, or at least address the worst cases of abuse..

In nursing, does the scarcity of male nurses might contribute to their price, even if they aren't any better at it than women?
Wouldn't surprise me.

Exactly correct.

Nope.

With free market capitalism it is a given that men and women are paid equitably assuming the government does not interfere.

That's a statement of faith, about a world that does not and cannot exist.

And we know this without reading about it in the fake news.

See? You just know it, without any information. Because it's a religion.

Because if it was somehow possible woman could be paid less than a man for exactly the same work, every business would compete to hire those women instead of those men.

It is observed. And they don't. Reality always trumps theory.

Hiring the cheapest labor is the smartest compulsion of a CEO decision in free market capitalism.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist, and would be awful if it did. That the western world, particularly the USA, has been moving towards it for a few decades is to our eternal shame.

Derec has to be right about this.

Derec is the touchstone of which side is the wrong side, in any discussion of gender.

If you find yourself agreeing with him about women, you have made at least one serious error in your reasoning.

 

[bilby]

Because if it was somehow possible woman could be paid less than a man for exactly the same work, every business would compete to hire those women instead of those men.

Equally, if a Ford Fiesta could be bought, fuelled and maintained for less than a Bentley, and could drive the exact same trips, on the exact same roads, every CEO would drive one.

Clearly something is badly wrong with free market capitalism.

 

[RVonse]

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

Sure.
But it becomes reasonable when corrected for confounders like how much some people don't like women, others are scared of women and still others are so confused that they'll latch onto anything that feels good at the moment. /s

Of course in truth there are varying degrees of all three of those things in most all of us, especially us males.... I simply don't like it when people get hurt, and worse when they are abused. I suppose belittling women with monetary inequality somehow bolsters the self esteem of some, but is a market decision really.

We ended up hiring a lot of women, largely because some of the production work required manual dexterity and small fingers were an asset. We targeted a woman for our COO, gave her some stock and she became a super valuable partner. Production managers, Shipping managers mostly women who worked their way up in production.
Some other Companies require a lot of physical exertion, and bigger might be better. I suppose if men could typically work with tiny things with gloves on for long stretches, do customer service and accounting, and be able to overhead press 400 pounds, they might be typically worth more than the typical woman to a Company like ours. But I don't think that's typically the case. So I typically favor legislation meant to help enforce a degree of fairness, or at least address the worst cases of abuse..

In nursing, does the scarcity of male nurses might contribute to their price, even if they aren't any better at it than women?
Wouldn't surprise me.

Exactly correct.

Nope.

With free market capitalism it is a given that men and women are paid equitably assuming the government does not interfere.

That's a statement of faith, about a world that does not and cannot exist.

It is a statement of humanity and rational thinking. Humans always do what is in their own interest, the same as the rest of the animal kingdom. A business hires the most it can for the least that it can pay in order to compete with others and not go out of business. If women were such a great deal for a CEO they would be in even higher demand than the people hired under H1A visas.

The fact that they aren't tells us everything we need to know.

 

[laughing dog]

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

Sure.
But it becomes reasonable when corrected for confounders like how much some people don't like women, others are scared of women and still others are so confused that they'll latch onto anything that feels good at the moment. /s

Of course in truth there are varying degrees of all three of those things in most all of us, especially us males.... I simply don't like it when people get hurt, and worse when they are abused. I suppose belittling women with monetary inequality somehow bolsters the self esteem of some, but is a market decision really.

We ended up hiring a lot of women, largely because some of the production work required manual dexterity and small fingers were an asset. We targeted a woman for our COO, gave her some stock and she became a super valuable partner. Production managers, Shipping managers mostly women who worked their way up in production.
Some other Companies require a lot of physical exertion, and bigger might be better. I suppose if men could typically work with tiny things with gloves on for long stretches, do customer service and accounting, and be able to overhead press 400 pounds, they might be typically worth more than the typical woman to a Company like ours. But I don't think that's typically the case. So I typically favor legislation meant to help enforce a degree of fairness, or at least address the worst cases of abuse..

In nursing, does the scarcity of male nurses might contribute to their price, even if they aren't any better at it than women?
Wouldn't surprise me.

Exactly correct. With free market capitalism it is a given that men and women are paid equitably assuming the government does not interfere.

You are sadly mistaken. In free market capitalism, market forces determine wages. Market forces are determined by many factors, including people's attitudes and biases.

 

[RVonse]

You can search for all this on the internet and discover tons of documentation about the persistent wage gap between men and women. But Derec, who could find this stuff just as easily as anyone else, blandly struts in here and just asserts that no such gap exists. It’s really pitiful.

Pitiful but expected.

Sure.
But it becomes reasonable when corrected for confounders like how much some people don't like women, others are scared of women and still others are so confused that they'll latch onto anything that feels good at the moment. /s

Of course in truth there are varying degrees of all three of those things in most all of us, especially us males.... I simply don't like it when people get hurt, and worse when they are abused. I suppose belittling women with monetary inequality somehow bolsters the self esteem of some, but is a market decision really.

We ended up hiring a lot of women, largely because some of the production work required manual dexterity and small fingers were an asset. We targeted a woman for our COO, gave her some stock and she became a super valuable partner. Production managers, Shipping managers mostly women who worked their way up in production.
Some other Companies require a lot of physical exertion, and bigger might be better. I suppose if men could typically work with tiny things with gloves on for long stretches, do customer service and accounting, and be able to overhead press 400 pounds, they might be typically worth more than the typical woman to a Company like ours. But I don't think that's typically the case. So I typically favor legislation meant to help enforce a degree of fairness, or at least address the worst cases of abuse..

In nursing, does the scarcity of male nurses might contribute to their price, even if they aren't any better at it than women?
Wouldn't surprise me.

Exactly correct. With free market capitalism it is a given that men and women are paid equitably assuming the government does not interfere.

You are sadly mistaken. In free market capitalism, market forces determine wages. Market forces are determined by many factors, including people's attitudes and biases.

A CEO might have biases, but his biggest bias is profit and staying in business.

 

[Elixir]

Derec has to be right about this.

Lulz. Any time you start thing that, it’s probably time to review the path that led you to such an unlikely conclusion.

 

[bilby]

It is a statement of humanity and rational thinking.

No, it isn't.

Humans always do what is in their own interest

No, they absolutely do not. Where have you been? Do you not have eyes or ears??

, the same as the rest of the animal kingdom.

The rest of the animal kingdom don't act in their own interest either.

A business hires the most it can for the least that it can pay in order to compete with others and not go out of business.

Which is why CEOs drive compact cars.

If women were such a great deal for a CEO they would be in even higher demand than the people hired under H1A visas.

They are. There are FAR more women working in the US than there are H1A visa holders.

The fact that they aren't tells us everything we need to know.

The fact that you can't see what is in front of your face tells us everything we need to know.

 

[Elixir]

"Humans always do what is in their own interest"

... says the guy who just voted for Trump.

 

[jonatha]

Humans always do what is in their own interest,

The late election is a counterexample

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I can’t believe the people who made these laws intended them to apply to things like “Ladies’ Night” promotions.

I think the progressives that wrote those laws intended to have them only apply to things where women are disadvantaged, not where women are advantaged. That is the essence of fauxgressive/feminist politics after all.

The problem with this is that it's not actually a matter of discrimination against men.

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept on the internet that if you're not paying you're the product. Ladies night is a version of this.

 

[ZiprHead]

A business hires the most it can for the least that it can pay in order to compete with others and not go out of business.

Which is why CEOs drive compact cars.

Yeah, this is Calvinism at it's finest. Those poorly paid people deserve what they get.

Does he really think that there's is no one that could do the 50 million dollar CEO job just as well but would accept just 25 million?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Women are paid less than men.

A wikipedia article that itself cites an opinion piece by Janet Yellen from 2020 that does not source her claims. And even so, she uses weasel-words like "similar occupations", i.e. not same, and "appear nearly identical in background and experience". No sources, no explanation how similar occupations and backgrounds/experience are considered.
That's because Janet Yellen, just like you, is pushing a political, feminist point of view.

Just look at the various claims--a wide range of percentages based on who is making the claim and how much they controlled for. If there was good data we would have seen it by now. The better the controls the less "discrimination" we find.