Proselytizing

[bilby]

These missionary types are probably in a state of ecstasy. Something I realized back in the 90s talking to a Christian. It is not just about a simple belief. They are living the supernatural as a reality. God, demons, Satan, evil spirits are reality to them. They are living fantasy-adventure.

Proselytizing is part of the adventure and excitement.

Indeed. Every time I go through the SLC airport, there are large groups of mor(m)ons either having a big send off, or welcome home. I wonder if there are statistics on how often they run afoul of local laws, especially in foreign countries.

I wonder how they rationalize the continued failure of pretty much everyone outside Utah to convert to Moronism.

I mean, most people would decide after a few decades of abject failure that their sales pitch wasn't working.

 

[Politesse]

These missionary types are probably in a state of ecstasy. Something I realized back in the 90s talking to a Christian. It is not just about a simple belief. They are living the supernatural as a reality. God, demons, Satan, evil spirits are reality to them. They are living fantasy-adventure.

Proselytizing is part of the adventure and excitement.

Indeed. Every time I go through the SLC airport, there are large groups of mor(m)ons either having a big send off, or welcome home. I wonder if there are statistics on how often they run afoul of local laws, especially in foreign countries.

I wonder how they rationalize the continued failure of pretty much everyone outside Utah to convert to Moronism.

I mean, most people would decide after a few decades of abject failure that their sales pitch wasn't working.

There are more than 15 million Mormons, and about half of that number live outside the US... It's not doing too shabby, for a newcomer to the religious sphere, especially one that has never been sponsored by an imperial government.

 

[bilby]

I wonder how they rationalize the continued failure of pretty much everyone outside Utah to convert to Moronism.

I mean, most people would decide after a few decades of abject failure that their sales pitch wasn't working.

There are more than 15 million Mormons, and about half of that number live outside the US... It's not doing too shabby, for a newcomer to the religious sphere, especially one that has never been sponsored by an imperial government.

Sure, that's pretty good by the standards of other religions. But 0.2% of the world population is a pretty shithouse result by the standards of of a fact about reality.

Once the idea that the atom was actually able to be split was posited, and the evidence for this fact was made available world wide, it didn't take long to get 90%+ acceptance of this as a fact about reality.

If any religion were actually the true religion that they all claim to be, I would expect to see that religion dominate the entire world in short order. Because true propositions can be demonstrated with evidence. If an army really has got God on its side, this would become rapidly apparent from the fact that they never lost a single battle, nor had a single casualty in combat. If a missionary really was telling people about a real god, and that god wanted the listeners to accept the truth, then they should expect a 100% conversion rate.

If god wants me to be a Mormon, why does he keep sending me guys who are so woefully unconvincing?

 

[fta]

I mean, most people would decide after a few decades of abject failure that their sales pitch wasn't working.

To quote the Westboro Baptist Church lunatics:

Our job is simply to preach, and by the foolishness of our preaching, we hope that people will be saved. However, Jesus is the Savior, not us. No man can come unto Him unless the Father in heaven draws him, and He will call His sheep. Remember, Noah preached for 120 years and convinced nobody, and by that righteous preaching, he condemned the world.

Every time I go through the SLC airport, there are large groups of mor(m)ons either having a big send off, or welcome home. I wonder if there are statistics on how often they run afoul of local laws, especially in foreign countries.

Don't know about statistics, but just Google "missionary deported" or "missionary arrested".

 

[crazyfingers]

If any religion were actually the true religion that they all claim to be, I would expect to see that religion dominate the entire world in short order. Because true propositions can be demonstrated with evidence. If an army really has got God on its side, this would become rapidly apparent from the fact that they never lost a single battle, nor had a single casualty in combat. If a missionary really was telling people about a real god, and that god wanted the listeners to accept the truth, then they should expect a 100% conversion rate.

If true, why do so few people accept the facts of human impact on climate change or evolution? Something else needs to be at play here. Seeing as how religion is very geographically influenced, peer and parent influences appear to halt the flow of ideas.

 

[Rhea]

To quote the Westboro Baptist Church lunatics:

Noah? A Jew? Proselytized for 120 years? Say it ain't so!

- - - Updated - - -

If true, why do so few people accept the facts of human impact on climate change or evolution?

Is it "so few," though?

 

[bilby]

If any religion were actually the true religion that they all claim to be, I would expect to see that religion dominate the entire world in short order. Because true propositions can be demonstrated with evidence. If an army really has got God on its side, this would become rapidly apparent from the fact that they never lost a single battle, nor had a single casualty in combat. If a missionary really was telling people about a real god, and that god wanted the listeners to accept the truth, then they should expect a 100% conversion rate.

If true, why do so few people accept the facts of human impact on climate change or evolution? Something else needs to be at play here. Seeing as how religion is very geographically influenced, peer and parent influences appear to halt the flow of ideas.

Most people (outside the USA) do accept the facts of human impact on climate change, and on evolution. That you happen to live in a small enclave of idiots is not evidence that everyone is an idiot.

Even most Christians worldwide accept climate change and evolution as facts.

 

[crazyfingers]

If any religion were actually the true religion that they all claim to be, I would expect to see that religion dominate the entire world in short order. Because true propositions can be demonstrated with evidence. If an army really has got God on its side, this would become rapidly apparent from the fact that they never lost a single battle, nor had a single casualty in combat. If a missionary really was telling people about a real god, and that god wanted the listeners to accept the truth, then they should expect a 100% conversion rate.

If true, why do so few people accept the facts of human impact on climate change or evolution? Something else needs to be at play here. Seeing as how religion is very geographically influenced, peer and parent influences appear to halt the flow of ideas.

Most people (outside the USA) do accept the facts of human impact on climate change, and on evolution. That you happen to live in a small enclave of idiots is not evidence that everyone is an idiot.

Even most Christians worldwide accept climate change and evolution as facts.

Well then what is at play in the US? It's hard to accept that Homosapians in the US have less innate intelligence than those in the rest of the world. Is Rupert Murdoch to blame? It can't be genetics.

 

[bilby]

Most people (outside the USA) do accept the facts of human impact on climate change, and on evolution. That you happen to live in a small enclave of idiots is not evidence that everyone is an idiot.

Even most Christians worldwide accept climate change and evolution as facts.

Well then what is at play in the US? It's hard to accept that Homosapians in the US have less innate intelligence than those in the rest of the world. Is Rupert Murdoch to blame? It can't be genetics.

The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

- Newsweek: “A Cult of Ignorance” by Isaac Asimov, January 21, 1980, p. 19

The USA is "the Land of the Free". For all too many of its inhabitants, this implies freedom from any criticism of their counterfactual ideas.

The rest of the world is more accepting of the fundamental idea that someone else might be genuinely better than they are, and that it's actually a good idea to heed one's betters.

 

[crazyfingers]

To quote the Westboro Baptist Church lunatics:

Noah? A Jew? Proselytized for 120 years? Say it ain't so!

- - - Updated - - -

If true, why do so few people accept the facts of human impact on climate change or evolution?

Is it "so few," though?

It's been a while but last data i saw suggested i believe that fewer than 50% of Americans accept that evolution is true.

 

[crazyfingers]

The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

- Newsweek: “A Cult of Ignorance” by Isaac Asimov, January 21, 1980, p. 19

The USA is "the Land of the Free". For all too many of its inhabitants, this implies freedom from any criticism of their counterfactual ideas.

The rest of the world is more accepting of the fundamental idea that someone else might be genuinely better than they are, and that it's actually a good idea to heed one's betters.

But why?

 

[bilby]

The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

- Newsweek: “A Cult of Ignorance” by Isaac Asimov, January 21, 1980, p. 19

The USA is "the Land of the Free". For all too many of its inhabitants, this implies freedom from any criticism of their counterfactual ideas.

The rest of the world is more accepting of the fundamental idea that someone else might be genuinely better than they are, and that it's actually a good idea to heed one's betters.

But why?

I don't understand the question. Are you wondering why Americans have a culture that prioritizes individual freedom over respect for authority? The roots of that are in the very founding history of your nation.

Or are you wondering why non-Americans are respectful of authority? That has far deeper roots - Monarchy was the dominant political system for at least several thousand years, and prior to that, tribes typically had chiefs and elders who dictated to the rest of the people what they would do.

And it's not just politics - American religion is a free-for-all. Most other countries had (until a few decades ago) one religion, and everyone belonged to it, or else. It's a far more authoritarian system - but it's brittle. Show an American a flaw in the dogma of his church, and he can just move to a church with a different take on that particular question of faith. Show a European that his church is flawed, and he has few other choices than to abandon the church altogether.

Being forced to learn religion in school, from teachers who really don't care about it, is another secularizing force. Europeans are irreligious for the same reason that Americans don't know geography - they had it rather incompetently forced on them in school, with no framework for understanding its importance in their lives, and so they forgot it all the instant the final exam was over - if they ever learned it at all.

 

[crazyfingers]

But why?

I don't understand the question. Are you wondering why Americans have a culture that prioritizes individual freedom over respect for authority? The roots of that are in the very founding history of your nation.

Or are you wondering why non-Americans are respectful of authority? That has far deeper roots - Monarchy was the dominant political system for at least several thousand years, and prior to that, tribes typically had chiefs and elders who dictated to the rest of the people what they would do.

I an wondering why American on average are far less willing to accept facts as facts.

 

[bilby]

But why?

I don't understand the question. Are you wondering why Americans have a culture that prioritizes individual freedom over respect for authority? The roots of that are in the very founding history of your nation.

Or are you wondering why non-Americans are respectful of authority? That has far deeper roots - Monarchy was the dominant political system for at least several thousand years, and prior to that, tribes typically had chiefs and elders who dictated to the rest of the people what they would do.

I an wondering why American on average are far less willing to accept facts as facts.

I thought I had made my hypothesis on the matter very clear.

...the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

..."the Land of the Free"... implies freedom from any criticism of their counterfactual ideas.

The rest of the world is more accepting of the fundamental idea that someone else might be genuinely better than they are, and that it's actually a good idea to heed one's betters.

If an American believes a falsehood, and is shown the facts by an expert, he feels justified in responding "Well, that's just your opinion". Non-americans are less likely to do this, and more likely to accept that an expert is an authority to be respected.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

These missionary types are probably in a state of ecstasy. Something I realized back in the 90s talking to a Christian. It is not just about a simple belief. They are living the supernatural as a reality. God, demons, Satan, evil spirits are reality to them. They are living fantasy-adventure.

Proselytizing is part of the adventure and excitement.

It's called bipolar mania.

 

[steve_bank]

These missionary types are probably in a state of ecstasy. Something I realized back in the 90s talking to a Christian. It is not just about a simple belief. They are living the supernatural as a reality. God, demons, Satan, evil spirits are reality to them. They are living fantasy-adventure.

Proselytizing is part of the adventure and excitement.

Indeed. Every time I go through the SLC airport, there are large groups of mor(m)ons either having a big send off, or welcome home. I wonder if there are statistics on how often they run afoul of local laws, especially in foreign countries.

I believe there are some places they are persona non grata.

 

[fta]

Missionaries on the Death of John Allen Chau:

It is a genuine concern to be aware of the potential of disease spreading, but I do think sharing the Gospel is worth the risk of the potential sharing of sickness as well.

— Michael Meyerdirk, 25, Bratislava, Slovakia. Lives in Slovakia and serves with a Christian nonprofit organization.

 

[crazyfingers]

Missionaries on the Death of John Allen Chau:

It is a genuine concern to be aware of the potential of disease spreading, but I do think sharing the Gospel is worth the risk of the potential sharing of sickness as well.

— Michael Meyerdirk, 25, Bratislava, Slovakia. Lives in Slovakia and serves with a Christian nonprofit organization.

Puke

 

[Grendel]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe.

Why start with the premise that gratitude is needed? Awe and joy are natural expressions, you don't owe anyone for them.

 

[Lion IRC]

There's already been a few posters expressing this same atheist POV

Why gratitude? For what? Grateful to Whom?

But if you hold that view in relation to some supposedly uncaused aspects of existence - sun, air, rain, etc - why not be consistent and assume that there's nothing to be grateful for full stop?

Your family and friends are no less a part of the uncaused, deterministic system than everything else. They didn't cause their own existence and their love/altruism is no more 'special' than gravity or electromagnetism.

Awe and joy. These are spiritual expressions.