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Protests and destruction in Kazakhstan

bilby said:
As a crude rule of thumb, if a government asks for help to protect it against the actions of its citizens, it probably doesn't deserve it; While if citizens ask for help to protect them against the actions of their government, they probably do.
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.. like how local government asked for federal help while the US citizens attempted to overthrow the US federal capitol building on January 6th? Those citizens were "probably right"?
 
barbos said:
bilby said:
As a crude rule of thumb, if a government asks for help to protect it against the actions of its citizens, it probably doesn't deserve it; While if citizens ask for help to protect them against the actions of their government, they probably do.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying. Kazakhstan Government is incompetent but it does
not mean that these rioters anything more than a bunch of low-life criminals who saw the opportunity.
And you should also apply that logic to Jan 6 in US. The government clearly failed too.
If US can't do anything with hordes of its own degenerates then nobody really can.
Click to expand...
When a government can't deal with internal disorder on it's own that almost certainly either means that the government is hopeless, or that the government is sufficiently bad that their own forces are likely to take the side of the protesters. (Or that it's a sham government being propped up by outside forces for the purpose of inviting those outside forces in.)
 
Loren Pechtel said:
barbos said:
bilby said:
As a crude rule of thumb, if a government asks for help to protect it against the actions of its citizens, it probably doesn't deserve it; While if citizens ask for help to protect them against the actions of their government, they probably do.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying. Kazakhstan Government is incompetent but it does
not mean that these rioters anything more than a bunch of low-life criminals who saw the opportunity.
And you should also apply that logic to Jan 6 in US. The government clearly failed too.
If US can't do anything with hordes of its own degenerates then nobody really can.
Click to expand...
When a government can't deal with internal disorder on it's own that almost certainly either means that the government is hopeless, or that the government is sufficiently bad that their own forces are likely to take the side of the protesters. (Or that it's a sham government being propped up by outside forces for the purpose of inviting those outside forces in.)
Click to expand...
You just repeated what bilby said, why?
 
barbos said:
Loren Pechtel said:
barbos said:
bilby said:
As a crude rule of thumb, if a government asks for help to protect it against the actions of its citizens, it probably doesn't deserve it; While if citizens ask for help to protect them against the actions of their government, they probably do.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying. Kazakhstan Government is incompetent but it does
not mean that these rioters anything more than a bunch of low-life criminals who saw the opportunity.
And you should also apply that logic to Jan 6 in US. The government clearly failed too.
If US can't do anything with hordes of its own degenerates then nobody really can.
Click to expand...
When a government can't deal with internal disorder on it's own that almost certainly either means that the government is hopeless, or that the government is sufficiently bad that their own forces are likely to take the side of the protesters. (Or that it's a sham government being propped up by outside forces for the purpose of inviting those outside forces in.)
Click to expand...
You just repeated what bilby said, why?
Click to expand...
Perhaps he agrees with me.

People do occasionally do that.
 
The thread title is misleading. It should read "People of Kazakhstan Openly rebel against Corruption and Russian Influence." I mean, that's basically the same thing that happened in Russia about a century ago.
 
Well, you all know me and my schtick by now about talking about how things are a spectrum...and in that context, I am looking at words like "protest" and wondering just how much that really pinpoints what is happening versus say other words to describe what is going on such as uprising, rebellion, rioting, insurrection, etc. I mean, on a continuum from protest to coup d'etat where is this? Or do we just not know? The usage of the word "protest" is interesting, though, not sure if that is a media/national bias or if it is just to capture a possible fact of not knowing for sure how to classify it.

Here are some additional details. Some news is calling these protests "anti-government" protests and speaking about how the targets are govt buildings, military, etc. The forces have allegedly tried to take control of govt buildings, example: police stations, but perhaps that is not the full scope of it. Up above in another post, someone mentions military is switching sides which at least makes it sound like there is an organizational side to switch to, perhaps, rather than declaring themselves anarchists... There is some vagueness about people being arrested for treason...and there is a specific person, former intelligence chief, mentioned explicitly as arrested for treason. Lastly, the protesters have been calling for the government's resignation and most recently have suspected links to a power struggle within the top tiers.
 
You said "Russian Influence". Was that automatic response?
Not even your State Department are saying that.
Not everything is run by Russia. Some countries are capable to have shitty government on their own. Most (actually all) of Central Asia have shitty governments.
Ironically, Kazakhstan was the least shitiest of them all.
 
barbos said:
Some countries are capable to have shitty government on their own
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Yeah but Kazakstan isn’t one of them.
That Country is just one small available component of Putin’s refried Soviet “Union”.
 
I bet you knew that I knew you’d say that, too.
Yahoo for you.
Doesn’t take a genius when you put the truth up on a tee for someone to point out.
 
There’s probably some truth to it when every country is blaming another country for its hordes of degenerates. Unfortunately recognizing that fact does little to address the problem. Power is concentrated in the hands of the few all across the globe, and every horde of degenerates is an asset in the pursuit of some power broker’s ambitions.
There was an informal mechanism for mitigating that effect in the US, but Trump dismantled it rather effectively.
 
barbos said:
Loren Pechtel said:
barbos said:
bilby said:
As a crude rule of thumb, if a government asks for help to protect it against the actions of its citizens, it probably doesn't deserve it; While if citizens ask for help to protect them against the actions of their government, they probably do.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying. Kazakhstan Government is incompetent but it does
not mean that these rioters anything more than a bunch of low-life criminals who saw the opportunity.
And you should also apply that logic to Jan 6 in US. The government clearly failed too.
If US can't do anything with hordes of its own degenerates then nobody really can.
Click to expand...
When a government can't deal with internal disorder on it's own that almost certainly either means that the government is hopeless, or that the government is sufficiently bad that their own forces are likely to take the side of the protesters. (Or that it's a sham government being propped up by outside forces for the purpose of inviting those outside forces in.)
Click to expand...
You just repeated what bilby said, why?
Click to expand...

Not quite--he said "doesn't deserve", I'm including the case where it's simply too weak.
 
TV and credit cards said:
Is A Battle For Power Raging Within Kazakhstan's Government?

Interesting read on what may be going on within the Kazakh government, why things unfolded as they did so far and why Toqaev was so quick to call in the Russians under the guise of the CSTO.
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Seems to be fair assessment of the situation which is rare among western media.
Central Asian governments are all basically the same shit - bunch of clans, corruption and nepotism. That has been that way since the start of the recorded history. During soviets there were some half-hearted attempts to break it with outside people but it was largely unsuccessful. After USSR dissolution they all reverted to old ways of doing governing.
The reason why police and security forces were so impotent in the beginning is because their higher management did not know which clan was behind it and whether or not they were winning/losing.
 
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