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Putin's new claims about missile defense systems. Is this the start of a new cold war?

southernhybrid

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/putin-claims-russia-has-nuclear-arsenal-capable-of-avoiding-missile-defenses/2018/03/01/d2dcf522-1d3b-11e8-b2d9-08e748f892c0_story.html?utm_term=.29858b565fa6


MOSCOW — Russia has developed nuclear weapons that can avoid missile-defense systems and plans to bolster its arsenal with nuclear-powered cruise missiles capable of hitting any point in the world, President Vladimir Putin claimed Thursday in his annual state of the nation address.

He warned that Moscow would mobilize an immediate response to any nuclear attack on it or its allies — adopting Cold War-style overtones that appeared to ramp up Russia’s posturing against the West.

Putin’s speech — which began with a rundown of domestic projects — was capped by a harsh rendering of East-West tensions and boasts about purported major advances in Russia’s arsenal, such as a nuclear-powered cruise missile that could strike anywhere.

Putin cast the plans as a response to U.S. development of missile-defense systems that, he claimed, were meant to challenge Russia’s nuclear arsenal.

His remarks appeared to be a message to Washington in the wake of the Trump administration’s recently announced plans to develop new nuclear arms and questions about the future of arms-control agreements between the United States and Russia.

Some think this is the beginning of a new cold war, or an attempt to keep Trump from attacking N. Korea. What are your thoughts?
 
Isn't a nuclear weapon that can avoid missile defense systems simply called a nuclear weapon? I understand that those systems aren't altogether effective.
 
It's also been reported by French media. One thing I remember among others: Putin said these systems are meant for defensive use.

I broadly accept the premise that deterrence works, bar any stupid mistake or the decision of an idiot, which will always remain a possibility. So, whatever the rhetoric, I don't think any of the leaders of current nuclear powers would use nukes offensively against each other's countries. Even India and Pakistan haven't done that yet.

Unless one of them could find how to get away with it. And even then, it seems unlikely to me.

I believe that the U.S. is also currently developing new systems and modernising old ones. I would expect it's something you need to do to ensure credible deterrence.

We're stuck in there, at least until we could find a political understanding to move away from the idea war as a solution. And we don't seem to be getting quite there yet.
EB
 
It's also been reported by French media. One thing I remember among others: Putin said these systems are meant for defensive use.

I broadly accept the premise that deterrence works, bar any stupid mistake or the decision of an idiot, which will always remain a possibility. So, whatever the rhetoric, I don't think any of the leaders of current nuclear powers would use nukes offensively against each other's countries. Even India and Pakistan haven't done that yet.

Unless one of them could find how to get away with it. And even then, it seems unlikely to me.

I believe that the U.S. is also currently developing new systems and modernising old ones. I would expect it's something you need to do to ensure credible deterrence.

We're stuck in there, at least until we could find a political understanding to move away from the idea war as a solution. And we don't seem to be getting quite there yet.
EB

Therein lies an interesting question. If everyone had nukes would our modern concepts of war become obsolete?
 
I would guess it's mainly for neighboring countries possessing or thinking of obtaining missile defense. Domestically, it's "ain't we bad".
 
W started this with the elimination of the ABM Treaty. I suppose the good news is Putin will stop whining about ballistic defense systems in Europe because of his super nuke. I kid, I kid.
 
Its the inevitable evolution of the deep state and defense industry making sure they remain viable at tax payer expense. Their middle east scam is starting to run its course... so it is time to re-start bad relations with Russia again.

And paradoxically, it is the democrats who used to be the party of love who are now the useful idiots ensuring this all becomes possible again. Flaming the fires with the Mueller Russia scandal and doing everything in their power to make sure Trump can not maintain a good relationship with Russia. The only good I can see from the democrats lately is that they do seem to have somewhat managed to break free from the chief defense contractor war monger scammer of them all...Hillary Clinton.
 
Therein lies an interesting question. If everyone had nukes would our modern concepts of war become obsolete?

That would seem to follow.

The more countries to have nukes, the more likely nukes will be used, if only through idiocy, incompetence or mistake.

There are already too many of them, in my view.

As I said, we're just stuck there. We would need a global political settlement.
EB
 
Look, people </channeling SHSanders, whose favorite word is "look">...

Putin is trying to destroy our country. Fostering divisiveness is one facet, and another is tying up our economy.
I sincerely doubt that he has invested in what he says they already have, or that he plans to develop all the toys he mentions. Rather, he is trying to goad his puppet into dedicating every every last cent that is left over after the Great Corporate&Billionaire Giveaway, to a purposeless, wasteful military spending project. He want it spent on shit that can't be used against him if he wants to invade Estonia, Ukraine etc.
Cheato will announce some massively-expensive-but-unspecified response soon. Bet on it.
 
It's always a battle between the missile and the anti-missile. Why that wouldn't apply to ballistic missiles makes no sense--the only question is when they would do it.
 
If one were a bit paranoid, one could think that maybe Putin is setting up his buddy, Trump to look good. He's playing good cop, bad cop.
 
Isn't a nuclear weapon that can avoid missile defense systems simply called a nuclear weapon? I understand that those systems aren't altogether effective.

Pretty much. Current ABM systems are (at best) in the order of 90% effective, so assigning ~10 warheads to your target gives you a good chance that one will get through. Russia is estimated to have approximately 4,300 warheads; So the question for anyone relying on ABM defense in a war with Russia is: Which 430 cities don't you need?

- - - Updated - - -

It's also been reported by French media. One thing I remember among others: Putin said these systems are meant for defensive use.

I broadly accept the premise that deterrence works, bar any stupid mistake or the decision of an idiot, which will always remain a possibility. So, whatever the rhetoric, I don't think any of the leaders of current nuclear powers would use nukes offensively against each other's countries. Even India and Pakistan haven't done that yet.

Unless one of them could find how to get away with it. And even then, it seems unlikely to me.

I believe that the U.S. is also currently developing new systems and modernising old ones. I would expect it's something you need to do to ensure credible deterrence.

We're stuck in there, at least until we could find a political understanding to move away from the idea war as a solution. And we don't seem to be getting quite there yet.
EB

Therein lies an interesting question. If everyone had nukes would our modern concepts of war become obsolete?

Yes. Just as everyone having chemical weapons made war obsolete after 1918.

Oh, wait.

Shit.
 
Pretty much. Current ABM systems are (at best) in the order of 90% effective, so assigning ~10 warheads to your target gives you a good chance that one will get through. Russia is estimated to have approximately 4,300 warheads; So the question for anyone relying on ABM defense in a war with Russia is: Which 430 cities don't you need?

- - - Updated - - -

Therein lies an interesting question. If everyone had nukes would our modern concepts of war become obsolete?

Yes. Just as everyone having chemical weapons made war obsolete after 1918.

Oh, wait.

Shit.

I think there's several orders of magnitude in difference between the two. Chemical weapons merely make war more miserable and terrible than it already was. Hardly a reason to stop if the rewards are good enough.

What reward is worth facing nuclear annihilation?
 
Pretty much. Current ABM systems are (at best) in the order of 90% effective, so assigning ~10 warheads to your target gives you a good chance that one will get through. Russia is estimated to have approximately 4,300 warheads; So the question for anyone relying on ABM defense in a war with Russia is: Which 430 cities don't you need?

- - - Updated - - -

Therein lies an interesting question. If everyone had nukes would our modern concepts of war become obsolete?

Yes. Just as everyone having chemical weapons made war obsolete after 1918.

Oh, wait.

Shit.

I think there's several orders of magnitude in difference between the two. Chemical weapons merely make war more miserable and terrible than it already was. Hardly a reason to stop if the rewards are good enough.

What reward is worth facing nuclear annihilation?

It was anticipated by both the British and Germans that chemical warfare against civilians would be used in WWII; Both sides had used it quite liberally against each other's military positions on the Western Front two decades earlier, and feared that its use against their cities would be devastating. Blister agents, such as mustard gas, would have been particularly difficult to defend against - the universal issuing of gas masks to the civilian population would have done little to protect against agents that can be absorbed through the skin, and are highly persistent. The results would have been devastating, and both sides knew it; As a result, neither side was prepared to be the first to use these weapons, lest they be subjected to retaliation in kind.

Of course, at the time, nuclear weapons didn't exist; These chemical weapons were the most frightening weapons of mass destruction that were available. Even Hitler resiled from their use - and given his readiness to use similar weapons against people who could not fight back, we can only assume that this was for fear of a retaliatory strike. Yet all of the horrors of war short of chemical weapons were unleashed by both sides, without apparent fear that a conventional attack might lead to a breakdown of deterrence with regard to chemical weapons.

The effectiveness of a nuclear deterrent rests on the understanding on both sides that the other side are willing to escalate to their use. The Soviets had good reason to believe that NATO would not hesitate from first use of nuclear weapons, in the event of a large scale conventional conflict in Europe; It was obviously less clear how NATO might respond to smaller scale conflicts, and such conflicts were commonplace during the Cold War, particularly outside the European theatre. The American (or Russian) people would not tolerate their leaders risking the very existence of their nations over some squabble in Africa or South East Asia, so both sides could act in those regions with little fear of precipitating a nuclear war.

Where no overwhelming justification for their use exists, it is hard to imagine any nation wanting to be the first to escalate to the use of WMD - but that makes these weapons ineffective at deterring conventional warfare.

Nuclear weapons also "merely make war more miserable and terrible than it already was" - unless you use a lot of them, and annihilate your opponent. If you believe that your ABM shield provides adequate defence to push the consequences from 'annihilation' to merely 'miserable and terrible', then why not go to war?

People may, perhaps, have less stomach for it today, but even before the nuclear age, the almost total loss of a city (or two, or three, or a dozen) was not sufficient to defeat anyone. Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo; All were destroyed just as completely as Hiroshima - the difference was that it took a bit longer, and a lot more aircraft and munitions, before the A-bomb became available.
 
If one were a bit paranoid, one could think that maybe Putin is setting up his buddy, Trump to look good. He's playing good cop, bad cop.

I have a different take (take it or leave it). Putin actually does have embarassing videos of Trump and is betting that Trump will be cowed into doing nothing in response. Something that is very obviously out of character and will cause his base support to lose faith in him. He's using Trump tactics but he's just much better at it due to his KGB training. Also adds to Putin's prestige in the upcoming Russian election by putting Trump "in his place". Not arguing that I want Trump to retaliate. Just saying that its what he normally does.
 
How does a cruise missle that can strike anywhere on Earth and can't be defended against change the balance of power? The US can do the same thing with current weaponry and I assume that Russia already could without this new (and probably much more costly) technology.
 
How does a cruise missle that can strike anywhere on Earth and can't be defended against change the balance of power? The US can do the same thing with current weaponry and I assume that Russia already could without this new (and probably much more costly) technology.

Onboard nuclear reactor.
 
How does a cruise missle that can strike anywhere on Earth and can't be defended against change the balance of power? The US can do the same thing with current weaponry and I assume that Russia already could without this new (and probably much more costly) technology.

Onboard nuclear reactor.

Meh. Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) has been a fact of life for decades, and Uncle Vlad's saber-rattling changes exactly nothing.
This seems like a puppeteer playing with his toy, trying to keep Trump mindful of what will happen if he balks at any orders. No, not nuclear war - that isn't in the cards. But it's obvious that Vlad is flaunting his ability to threaten virtually ANYTHING against the US, with no response from the Puppet Of The United States.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pentagon-looks-to-adjust-missile-defense-policy-to-include-threats-from-russia-china/2018/03/01/2358ae22-1be5-11e8-8a2c-1a6665f59e95_story.html?utm_term=.93b25db5def8


The Trump administration is working on an expanded U.S. missile defense policy that would address certain threats from Russia and China, departing from a previous strategy that focused nearly exclusively on rogue nations such as North Korea and Iran.

The new policy will still call for bolstered technology against rogue states, with a particular focus on weapons to intercept North Korean leader Kim Jong Un’s missiles. But people familiar with the review say it will also mention the need to consider missile threats from Russia and China, a change from previous doctrine.

The document remains in a draft form and could change before its tentative release in late March.

Deliberations on the policy at the Pentagon come as Russian President Vladi*mir Putin threatens the United States with new weaponry, including a nuclear-powered cruise missile that he touted publicly for the first time during a presidential address on Thursday.

Russia’s thousands of missiles easily could overwhelm existing U.S. missile defenses in the event of a full-scale war. Washington relies on the threat of its own vast nuclear arsenal to deter an attack from a global power.

Maybe Putin is just badgering Trump to use more resources on the wasteful military. And, can somebody update me on what threats China has made recently? I know they are an economic threat, but has China also been posturing about using nuclear weapons? Let's watch the deficit increase even more under the Republican regime because paranoid Republicans are always ready for more war.
 
How does a cruise missle that can strike anywhere on Earth and can't be defended against change the balance of power? The US can do the same thing with current weaponry and I assume that Russia already could without this new (and probably much more costly) technology.

Anywhere in the world means a nuclear-powered cruise missile. We abandoned those long ago.

I seriously question the "can't be defended against" part of it, though--cruise missiles can be shot down if you know they are coming. (Although you can make it hard on the shooters by making them salvage fuse.)
 
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