Question for those who support Voter ID laws in the US

[Derec]

The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip.

11%? I call BS on that.

In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.

At least in Georgia "people of color" tend to be concentrated in urban areas. The rural areas are overwhelmingly white.
I fail to comprehend how the voter id problem can be most severe in rural areas and at the same time affect so-called "people of color" especially, given how most so-called "people of color" are concentrated in cities.

More than 1 million eligible voters in these states fall below the federal poverty line and live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. These voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars.

Yes, things cost money. But having proper id is essential to living in the modern world. Vast majority of adults have driver's licenses anyway, especially in suburban and rural areas with less or no public transit. For those who don't, you need id to open a bank account, cash a check, get healthcare, board a plane, buy booze and many other things.
If you're poor and living in a rural area you might have to find transportation to a government office in a different town, take time off from work on one of the few days it's

It's not so easy when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

Without id, what do you do with that paycheck?

- - - Updated - - -

Wondering aloud...how did voter photo ID work before the advent of photography?

Because I'm fairly certain we had democracy before the invention of cameras.

Well it was in the 19th century that the phrase "vote early and vote often" originated.

I think voting is more important than controlling who buys a beer or pseudo-ephedrine. Id is required for latter. Why not former?

 

[RVonse]

Given that ID is not free in the US, is not easy to get for everyone and these laws and purges strip the constitutional right to votes from tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of legal voters...

Do you people also feel it is okay to lock up men who might be at risk of being rapists until they can prove they aren’t rapists? Take away their civil rights if they can’t afford a good lawyer and days in court?

Put a couple hundred thousand in jail so we can catch one or two?

Seems like it would be right up your alley. Is it?

There is a HUGE difference between not getting to vote and being locked up in jail. Most people in the US don't even want to vote. How many people do you know that want to go to jail? So its a totally invalid comparison.

 

[laughing dog]

I fail to comprehend how the voter id problem can be most severe in rural areas and at the same time affect so-called "people of color" especially, given how most so-called "people of color" are concentrated in cities.

In rural areas, the access to gov't offices is more restricted - there are fewer of them and they are not necessarily open all of the time, so people may have to travel longer distances. Moreover, if you don't have a car, getting to these offices may be a problem. In urban areas, there are more offices and they tend to have regular hours and there are more options for getting to the offices.

I think voting is more important than controlling who buys a beer or pseudo-ephedrine. Id is required for latter. Why not former?

Apparently your view is not consistent with observed history. And if voting is so important, why make it more difficult than it already is in order to combat an undocumented problem?

 

[RVonse]

Lets look at that again. Your arguments apply reasonably well to a working person in an urban/suburban environment. However:

Can't open a bank account: I haven't opened a bank account this century.

I don't get it. Why can't you open a bank account? And what difference does it make whether you have opened one this century?

 

[bilby]

For every dollar used to investigate voter ID fraud, spend a dollar investigating voter disenfranchisement. See where the real election rigging is.

Or you could make voting compulsory. In Australia, we have a name for people like Trump. He's called Jacqui Lambie

In Queensland he's called Clive Palmer. Palmer even has billboards that just read 'Make Australia Great'. He's also a narcissist, and a failed businessman with lots of dodgy deals in his past.

He's not quite as racist as Trump, but that's probably because he doesn't want to tread on Pauline Hanson's toes - Though the one braincell party doesn't have a monopoly on racism, xenophobia as a political platform is becoming somewhat over subscribed. Practically half of the candidates on the last senate ballot here were either racists, religious nuts, or both.

 

[steve_bank]

But having a state or federal ID is not the issue. It is having one that will let you vote. That's why these laws are often designed to favor likely Republican voters and disfavor likely Democratic ones. So, for example, some states forbid students from out of state to use their student photo ID, even though students have a legal right to vote in those states. OTOH, a permit to carry a gun may be allowed in such states, because those who have such permits are more likely to be Republicans.



There is no "immigration mess" connected to voter registration and elections. That is simply a trumped up claim without any basis in fact. But you are correct that the push for photo IDs is obviously from the right. That is because such laws are intended to suppress the votes of people with a legal right to vote who happen to be likely Democratic voters. Hence, the partisan push for photo IDs. These laws are not aimed at people who have snuck into the US illegally and attempted to vote. They are aimed at legal voting citizens who happen to belong to a political party.

Reports have shown how easy it is to get a fake license and SS card in the southwest, there is a market for it and it is not all that expensive.

What reports? One can always find reports that confirm a bias, but they may not necessarily be reports that have a basis in fact.

Right now it is up to the states. Reporters went undercover and bought fake IDs.

It is not about preventing citizens from voting. It is about creating fear in the illegal population, and pandering to anti immigration.

 

[Patooka]

For every dollar used to investigate voter ID fraud, spend a dollar investigating voter disenfranchisement. See where the real election rigging is.

Or you could make voting compulsory. In Australia, we have a name for people like Trump. He's called Jacqui Lambie

In Queensland he's called Clive Palmer. Palmer even has billboards that just read 'Make Australia Great'. He's also a narcissist, and a failed businessman with lots of dodgy deals in his past.

He's not quite as racist as Trump, but that's probably because he doesn't want to tread on Pauline Hanson's toes - Though the one braincell party doesn't have a monopoly on racism, xenophobia as a political platform is becoming somewhat over subscribed. Practically half of the candidates on the last senate ballot here were either racists, religious nuts, or both.

I was tempted to use Palmer as the analogy, but he is not as popular as Lambie with regards to arseholes wanting an opinion on talk back radio or Sky News. And yes, whenever I catch up with family in Queensland, I always bring a banjo and a copy of Deliverance, because I'm a bit of a dick. Queenslands only redeeming feature appears to be their prowess in Rugby League; this year notwithstanding of course.

 

[Copernicus]

But having a state or federal ID is not the issue. It is having one that will let you vote. That's why these laws are often designed to favor likely Republican voters and disfavor likely Democratic ones. So, for example, some states forbid students from out of state to use their student photo ID, even though students have a legal right to vote in those states. OTOH, a permit to carry a gun may be allowed in such states, because those who have such permits are more likely to be Republicans.



There is no "immigration mess" connected to voter registration and elections. That is simply a trumped up claim without any basis in fact. But you are correct that the push for photo IDs is obviously from the right. That is because such laws are intended to suppress the votes of people with a legal right to vote who happen to be likely Democratic voters. Hence, the partisan push for photo IDs. These laws are not aimed at people who have snuck into the US illegally and attempted to vote. They are aimed at legal voting citizens who happen to belong to a political party.

Reports have shown how easy it is to get a fake license and SS card in the southwest, there is a market for it and it is not all that expensive.

What reports? One can always find reports that confirm a bias, but they may not necessarily be reports that have a basis in fact.

Right now it is up to the states. Reporters went undercover and bought fake IDs.

So what? All that proves is that it is possible to buy fake IDs. Teenagers do that so they can buy alcohol. There is no evidence that these fake IDs are playing any significant role in any elections at all. That is the narrative that is being promoted by you and other conservatives. Show us some evidence that non-citizens who are here illegally are making an effort to influence elections. They want fake IDs for a lot of reasons, but voting is hardly something that would be a concern for them. They are trying to make an income and support family members. The vast majority of Americans are descended from people who came here for exactly the same reason. Being able to vote in an election doesn't strike me as high on the list of concerns for such individuals.

It is not about preventing citizens from voting. It is about creating fear in the illegal population, and pandering to anti immigration.

If that is so, then why is this such a partisan issue? Do you really believe that Democrats think votes by illegal immigrants make a difference in elections? It is the legal voters that are lodging all of the complaints about these laws.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am living in a rehab/assisted living facility. Many people on SS and Medicaid and with mobility problems. The state allows them $60 a month out of SS the rest going to rent. People in wheelchairs get on busses and go around Seattle. If they need to get somewhere not accessible they call on family and friends, use Seattle assisted transport, or use volunteer ride services. . They all have IDs. You can not open a bank account to deposit your monthly SS without an ID. You're drinking the pro illegal immigration kool aid.

I am not anti immigration, I am against open borders.

You're the one drinking the kool-aid. The problem of fraudulent voting at the polls is basically zero. A simple test: Any such measure that disenfranchises more Americans than it stops illegal votes is obviously harmful. Voter ID requirements fail this test by several orders of magnitude.

That is the pollyannaish progressive view. There has always been fraud. It is minimized today because of our aggressive media and technology, but it certainly occurs.

I do not know if photo ID will have any material affect on anything. What I disagree with is the argument against it in the OP.

You're missing the downside--disenfranchised voters. We have already seen that Republican voter suppression has resulted in a lot of that. By simple fairness, more disenfranchised than fraud prevented = wrong.

Furthermore, by saying you don't know if there will be any effect you're basically admitting you have no good motive for this, you just want the downside--the voter suppression.

In the general legal population I doubt there is any significant number of people who have no state or federal ID at all or are so isolated that an ID is difficult to get.

In some areas the vote suppression has reached 10%.

Reports have shown how easy it is to get a fake license and SS card in the southwest, there is a market for it and it is not all that expensive.

Which shows that voter ID won't help much anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But having a state or federal ID is not the issue. It is having one that will let you vote. That's why these laws are often designed to favor likely Republican voters and disfavor likely Democratic ones. So, for example, some states forbid students from out of state to use their student photo ID, even though students have a legal right to vote in those states. OTOH, a permit to carry a gun may be allowed in such states, because those who have such permits are more likely to be Republicans.

This is deception by the left. The laws call for government-issued photo ID and CCW permits are government issued and have your address and your picture. There's no evil intent in allowing them.

Student IDs, however, are issued by the school, not by the government. Hence they don't qualify.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lets look at that again. Your arguments apply reasonably well to a working person in an urban/suburban environment. However:

Can't open a bank account: I haven't opened a bank account this century.

I don't get it. Why can't you open a bank account? And what difference does it make whether you have opened one this century?

He was listing it as something you need ID to do.

I'm pointing out that for someone established it's not something you do much at all.

 

[Copernicus]

But having a state or federal ID is not the issue. It is having one that will let you vote. That's why these laws are often designed to favor likely Republican voters and disfavor likely Democratic ones. So, for example, some states forbid students from out of state to use their student photo ID, even though students have a legal right to vote in those states. OTOH, a permit to carry a gun may be allowed in such states, because those who have such permits are more likely to be Republicans.

This is deception by the left. The laws call for government-issued photo ID and CCW permits are government issued and have your address and your picture. There's no evil intent in allowing them.

Student IDs, however, are issued by the school, not by the government. Hence they don't qualify.

Actually, the Supreme Court (Symm vs the United States) already decided this in 1979 in favor of using student IDs for voter registration. The only reason to bar such IDs at the polls is to suppress votes by college students, who happen to vote in larger numbers for Democratic candidates. That is the sole reason for denying students their right to use university picture IDs. By requiring the voter ID at the poll booth to be "government issued" (and not even allow IDs from state and local government-run colleges), the legislators deliberately chose to ignore settled law. Loren, you are pretty good at acknowledging the unfairness of these voter ID laws and their purpose--to skew voting patterns. Let's not try to excuse the need for laws that place voting barriers up for no good reason. There is no evidence that any of these laws are driven by a need to remedy voter fraud. If fraud is being committed on any significant scale, it is probably with ballots that are mailed in, not ballots cast by people who show up in person.

 

[Rhea]

Okay, so, got it.

It’s perfectly fine with several of you for tens of thousands of innocent people to lose their civil rights for the purpose of stopping one or two bad eggs. No problems, no guilt. No concern for the innocents who are put through the wringer by the tens of thousands; totally worth it to catch the one or two bad guys. We can even pretend it’s not even a big deal for them, because staying out of jail is so easy for us. No worries, guys! You should just live like us and it wouldn’t even happen. But if it does, it’s worth it and we don’t really care about what you have to go through to get back your civil rights.

Thanks for your candid answers.

 

[fast]

I'm working 1099--no ID needed.

Correct me if I'm in error; I may very well be, but is the 1099, no ID needed connection a gaping loophole that's purposefully designed by Democrats to provide financial sanctuary to illegal immigrants so that they can thrive amongst us? I'm not saying that the many many people who utilize 1099 are immigrants, let alone illegal immigrants. I'm saying that keeping it no ID required is intentionally blatant so that those who have not taken the proper channnels to even legally reside in the US can hide amongst us and work.

ETA: suggesting intent isn't my style, but it happens so much around here, I thought I'd give it a go.

 

[fast]

Okay, so, got it.

It’s perfectly fine with several of you for tens of thousands of innocent people to lose their civil rights for the purpose of stopping one or two bad eggs. No problems, no guilt. No concern for the innocents who are put through the wringer by the tens of thousands; totally worth it to catch the one or two bad guys. We can even pretend it’s not even a big deal for them, because staying out of jail is so easy for us. No worries, guys! You should just live like us and it wouldn’t even happen. But if it does, it’s worth it and we don’t really care about what you have to go through to get back your civil rights.

Thanks for your candid answers.

I'm looking for a polite way to ask "what are you talking about?"

At first read, I completely missed the immigration angle. After the second read, it was like you were saying, if you're the kind of bad person that supports harsh voter ID laws, are you also harshly willing to jail illegal border crossers? I've wondered if you're talking about the notion that elicits the old saying, "it's better that ten guilty go free than to jail one innocent." Now I'm wondering if you're talking about how people convicted of a crime are not allowed to vote. Could you dumb it down a lil, especially without words like "so that" that invoke motive. Just trying to get a good bead on what's actually on your mind.

 

[Rhea]

I wasn’t talking about immigrants at all. I never mentioned them.

I was talking about voter ID laws that disenfranchise legal Americans by way of requiring an ID that is, for many people, quite difficult to get.

As Arctish said, it’s not that the state requires an ID, it’s that the ID costs money and is hard ot get for many citizens. So, end result, voter ID laws are a poll tax that takes away the civil rights of tens of thousands in an effort to catch one or two.

I wondered if the folks who are so enthusiastically in favor of taking away civil rights for this are also in favor of other ways to take away civil rights, say from potential rapists or those who can’t prove they aren’t. Indeed, that they think it is better to jail 10,000 innocents than to let 1 guilty go free.

 

[steve_bank]

Suddenly everybody is up in arms. The root cause of the move for photo ID is illegal immigration. Photo ID is part of the anti immigration narrative, if you haven't been paying attention.

 

[bilby]

For every dollar used to investigate voter ID fraud, spend a dollar investigating voter disenfranchisement. See where the real election rigging is.

Or you could make voting compulsory. In Australia, we have a name for people like Trump. He's called Jacqui Lambie

In Queensland he's called Clive Palmer. Palmer even has billboards that just read 'Make Australia Great'. He's also a narcissist, and a failed businessman with lots of dodgy deals in his past.

He's not quite as racist as Trump, but that's probably because he doesn't want to tread on Pauline Hanson's toes - Though the one braincell party doesn't have a monopoly on racism, xenophobia as a political platform is becoming somewhat over subscribed. Practically half of the candidates on the last senate ballot here were either racists, religious nuts, or both.

I was tempted to use Palmer as the analogy, but he is not as popular as Lambie with regards to arseholes wanting an opinion on talk back radio or Sky News. And yes, whenever I catch up with family in Queensland, I always bring a banjo and a copy of Deliverance, because I'm a bit of a dick. Queenslands only redeeming feature appears to be their prowess in Rugby League; this year notwithstanding of course.

Well we have to let the Blues win the occasional series or they might get bored and stop playing.

 

[repoman]

random ideas

All ID should be 100% free, even including enhanced ID. CDLs are a different matter. Transportation to get the ID should be free as well even for end of life invalids. That or have mobile vans come out of and give IDs.

The real meat of the issue of voter fraud is are non citizens getting on voter rolls for the US Presidential elections? The state and local elections, do they have the legal right to allow residents and illegal aliens to vote in local elections? If so, how is those people kept from voting for president?

I would call non citizens registering to vote and succeeding "voting roll fraud" or "voting roll incompetence" by the local governments at best. At worst it would be voting roll padding fraud of illegals. The liars loans of the voting world.

What proof of citizenship or ID is needed to register to vote? the more important link in the chain compared to actually voting. Once registered to vote the cat is out of the bag.

What voter id at the voting booth would definitely stop is "voter impersonation fraud" of a living or dead person. This would need some old school "Chicago machine" politics to be effective.

Black Box voting is where attention should be instead.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/system-wont-register-to-vote-those-living-in-us-illegally/2018/03/01/a254fe82-1dc1-11e8-98f5-ceecfa8741b6_story.html?utm_term=.7ddc949cbb4b

What about having the person proactively affirm they are or are not a citizen? Just a greyed out box?

How does the system know the person is a citizen?

 

[RVonse]

Okay, so, got it.

It’s perfectly fine with several of you for tens of thousands of innocent people to lose their civil rights for the purpose of stopping one or two bad eggs. No problems, no guilt. No concern for the innocents who are put through the wringer by the tens of thousands; totally worth it to catch the one or two bad guys. We can even pretend it’s not even a big deal for them, because staying out of jail is so easy for us. No worries, guys! You should just live like us and it wouldn’t even happen. But if it does, it’s worth it and we don’t really care about what you have to go through to get back your civil rights.

Thanks for your candid answers.

I'm looking for a polite way to ask "what are you talking about?"

At first read, I completely missed the immigration angle. After the second read, it was like you were saying, if you're the kind of bad person that supports harsh voter ID laws, are you also harshly willing to jail illegal border crossers? I've wondered if you're talking about the notion that elicits the old saying, "it's better that ten guilty go free than to jail one innocent." Now I'm wondering if you're talking about how people convicted of a crime are not allowed to vote. Could you dumb it down a lil, especially without words like "so that" that invoke motive. Just trying to get a good bead on what's actually on your mind.

She blew right over my head too.