Question for those who support Voter ID laws in the US

[Rhea]

Given that ID is not free in the US, is not easy to get for everyone and these laws and purges strip the constitutional right to votes from tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of legal voters...

Do you people also feel it is okay to lock up men who might be at risk of being rapists until they can prove they aren’t rapists? Take away their civil rights if they can’t afford a good lawyer and days in court?

Put a couple hundred thousand in jail so we can catch one or two?

Seems like it would be right up your alley. Is it?

 

[steve_bank]

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

 

[Arctish]

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

The Challenge of Obtaining Voter Identification

The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip. In the 10 states with restrictive voter ID laws:
•Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
•More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
•1.2 million eligible black voters and 500,000 eligible Hispanic voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. People of color are more likely to be disenfranchised by these laws since they are less likely to have photo ID than the general population.
•Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays. In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.

More than 1 million eligible voters in these states fall below the federal poverty line and live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. These voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars.

If you're poor and living in a rural area you might have to find transportation to a government office in a different town, take time off from work on one of the few days it's open, and hope the clerk didn't call out sick that day. And you have to cover the cost of the documents needed to get the ID, and perhaps an additional cost for the ID itself. It's not so easy when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[steve_bank]

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

The Challenge of Obtaining Voter Identification

The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip. In the 10 states with restrictive voter ID laws:
•Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
•More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
•1.2 million eligible black voters and 500,000 eligible Hispanic voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. People of color are more likely to be disenfranchised by these laws since they are less likely to have photo ID than the general population.
•Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays. In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.

More than 1 million eligible voters in these states fall below the federal poverty line and live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. These voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars.

If you're poor and living in a rural area you might have to find transportation to a government office in a different town, take time off from work on one of the few days it's open, and hope the clerk didn't call out sick that day. And you have to cover the cost of the documents needed to get the ID, and perhaps an additional cost for the ID itself. It's not so easy when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

There is always ratioal by opposition why something should not be done. There are always exceptions.

A pack of cigarettes is what $10-20? What is rural? Are there a significant number of people who can not get a ride to a DMV office? People without a friend or relative?

The arguments do not hol up. It creates the image of large masses of poverty stricken people who are so miserable and isolated they can't can't get an ID. Please. Jews have a Yiddish tern smaltz. Excessive overblown sentiment.

If they are so poor they can't afford a stamp for a write in vote?

I am living in a rehab/assisted living facility. Many people on SS and Medicaid and with mobility problems. The state allows them $60 a month out of SS the rest going to rent. People in wheelchairs get on busses and go around Seattle. If they need to get somewhere not accessible they call on family and friends, use Seattle assisted transport, or use volunteer ride services. . They all have IDs. You can not open a bank account to deposit your monthly SS without an ID. You're drinking the pro illegal immigration kool aid.

I am not anti immigration, I am against open borders.

 

[Ford]

Wondering aloud...how did voter photo ID work before the advent of photography?

Because I'm fairly certain we had democracy before the invention of cameras.

 

[Arctish]

The Challenge of Obtaining Voter Identification



If you're poor and living in a rural area you might have to find transportation to a government office in a different town, take time off from work on one of the few days it's open, and hope the clerk didn't call out sick that day. And you have to cover the cost of the documents needed to get the ID, and perhaps an additional cost for the ID itself. It's not so easy when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

There is always ratioal by opposition why something should not be done. There are always exceptions.

A pack of cigarettes is what $10-20? What is rural? Are there a significant number of people who can not get a ride to a DMV office? People without a friend or relative?

The arguments do not hol up. It creates the image of large masses of poverty stricken people who are so miserable and isolated they can't can't get an ID. Please. Jews have a Yiddish tern smaltz. Excessive overblown sentiment.

If they are so poor they can't afford a stamp for a write in vote?

I am living in a rehab/assisted living facility. Many people on SS and Medicaid and with mobility problems. The state allows them $60 a month out of SS the rest going to rent. People in wheelchairs get on busses and go around Seattle. If they need to get somewhere not accessible they call on family and friends, use Seattle assisted transport, or use volunteer ride services. . They all have IDs. You can not open a bank account to deposit your monthly SS without an ID. You're drinking the pro illegal immigration kool aid.

I am not anti immigration, I am against open borders.

Did you read the link?

How easy would it be for you to get an ID from an office that's only open 4 days out of the entire year? Suppose the clerk called out sick on the same day you arranged to have off from work? If it costs you $35.00 to get an Uber ride to the office and $20.00 to get the documents you need, how much cash would you have left for buying groceries that week?

I'm not opposed to having citizens present ID at the polling station. I'm against burdensome requirements for getting the needed documents. I'm against denying old people the right to vote because birth certificates weren't routinely issued when/where they were born. I'm against purging voter lists without triple checking in order to ensure that no one is mistakenly/maliciously removed from the rolls. I'm against forcing people to pay a fee in order to exercise a Constitutional right.

If a state wants to require citizens to show ID at the polling booth, it should make damn sure that every citizen receives one for free. They can pay for the program out of the same funds they use for voting machines and ballots.

 

[Toni]

A different situation, but difficulties can occur in urban settings as well. We were living in a major metropolitan area when we got married in a county court house. We did not live in the major city: too expensive by far. But we lived in an 'inner circle' suburb, less than 10 miles to the center of the large city--and still an hour commute for me. In order to get the license, my soon to be husband took off from work and had to go to the county seat of the county in which we resided. Not so bad but we didn't have a car and the county seat was on a bus route (I think there were a couple of transfers involved) and it took him the better part of a day to accomplish this. When we got married, we rather foolishly did not ask friends to come with as witnesses--and took the lengthy bus ride involving transfers, etc. I had to take a partial day off work to get married, which was a big deal. In fact, we did not get married on a Monday or a Friday because my boss had gone on a rampage against people taking off on Mondays and Fridays. After we were married, we both went to our respective places of work by way of our home, although I think I just went straight to the bus stop for my job from the bus stop from the court house trip.

We were young and fit and healthy and were able to scrounge up the bus fare, although it did put a rather big dent in our weekly budget. We were poor, of course.

Not everyone is as young and fit and healthy or has access to public transportation or any reliable transportation. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to easily vote.

 

[jonatha]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States

I note that steve_bank lives in a state that does not, in fact, strictly require a voter to present identification prior to voting.

 

[steve_bank]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States

I note that steve_bank lives in a state that does not, in fact, strictly require a voter to present identification prior to voting.

Did not say it did, what is your point?

 

[steve_bank]

The Challenge of Obtaining Voter Identification



If you're poor and living in a rural area you might have to find transportation to a government office in a different town, take time off from work on one of the few days it's open, and hope the clerk didn't call out sick that day. And you have to cover the cost of the documents needed to get the ID, and perhaps an additional cost for the ID itself. It's not so easy when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

There is always ratioal by opposition why something should not be done. There are always exceptions.

A pack of cigarettes is what $10-20? What is rural? Are there a significant number of people who can not get a ride to a DMV office? People without a friend or relative?

The arguments do not hol up. It creates the image of large masses of poverty stricken people who are so miserable and isolated they can't can't get an ID. Please. Jews have a Yiddish tern smaltz. Excessive overblown sentiment.

If they are so poor they can't afford a stamp for a write in vote?

I am living in a rehab/assisted living facility. Many people on SS and Medicaid and with mobility problems. The state allows them $60 a month out of SS the rest going to rent. People in wheelchairs get on busses and go around Seattle. If they need to get somewhere not accessible they call on family and friends, use Seattle assisted transport, or use volunteer ride services. . They all have IDs. You can not open a bank account to deposit your monthly SS without an ID. You're drinking the pro illegal immigration kool aid.

I am not anti immigration, I am against open borders.

Did you read the link?

How easy would it be for you to get an ID from an office that's only open 4 days out of the entire year? Suppose the clerk called out sick on the same day you arranged to have off from work? If it costs you $35.00 to get an Uber ride to the office and $20.00 to get the documents you need, how much cash would you have left for buying groceries that week?

I'm not opposed to having citizens present ID at the polling station. I'm against burdensome requirements for getting the needed documents. I'm against denying old people the right to vote because birth certificates weren't routinely issued when/where they were born. I'm against purging voter lists without triple checking in order to ensure that no one is mistakenly/maliciously removed from the rolls. I'm against forcing people to pay a fee in order to exercise a Constitutional right.

If a state wants to require citizens to show ID at the polling booth, it should make damn sure that every citizen receives one for free. They can pay for the program out of the same funds they use for voting machines and ballots.

In Wa you only have to make the trip every six years. Because some may be inconvenience is not an argument against it. If that were true we would not implement anything.

 

[steve_bank]

Wondering aloud...how did voter photo ID work before the advent of photography?

Because I'm fairly certain we had democracy before the invention of cameras.

From what I read in the 19th century a local official would go around personal checking people against a list.

Historically voter fraud has been an issue.

JFK's father probably swung the election. In Chicago there were places where there were more votes than actual residents. A lot of dead people resurrected themselves for the election.

I would expect there are non citizens who manged to vote, the question is how many.

 

[Patooka]

For every dollar used to investigate voter ID fraud, spend a dollar investigating voter disenfranchisement. See where the real election rigging is.

Or you could make voting compulsory. In Australia, we have a name for people like Trump. He's called Jacqui Lambie

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

Lets look at that again. Your arguments apply reasonably well to a working person in an urban/suburban environment. However:

Can't open a bank account: I haven't opened a bank account this century.
New job: Obviously only relevant to those who are employed. I'm working 1099--no ID needed. And what about someone who keeps working the same job?

In practice the times I use my ID are basically only for travel (airports & international borders) and for medical care. Likewise for my wife. As an established patient my wife has seen the doc more than once despite forgetting her ID.

And what you're missing about ID is that while the card itself usually isn't unreasonable it can become a nightmare if you're caught up in some paperwork issue. We have an occasional poster on here who is not realistically able to obtain ID, period. The RealID requirements are making things much worse, people caught up in situations where the records disagree on what their name is. It cost my wife a few hundred dollars to clear up such a snafu.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am living in a rehab/assisted living facility. Many people on SS and Medicaid and with mobility problems. The state allows them $60 a month out of SS the rest going to rent. People in wheelchairs get on busses and go around Seattle. If they need to get somewhere not accessible they call on family and friends, use Seattle assisted transport, or use volunteer ride services. . They all have IDs. You can not open a bank account to deposit your monthly SS without an ID. You're drinking the pro illegal immigration kool aid.

I am not anti immigration, I am against open borders.

You're the one drinking the kool-aid. The problem of fraudulent voting at the polls is basically zero. A simple test: Any such measure that disenfranchises more Americans than it stops illegal votes is obviously harmful. Voter ID requirements fail this test by several orders of magnitude.

 

[RavenSky]

You have to register to vote and have a voter ID card. You don't just walk in and vote. In Wa you get notification of where you go to vote.

Correct, however, this is NOT a "valid voter ID" under any of the Republican-promoted voter ID laws.

If the standard voter registration card were all anyone was talking about, there would be no issue at all for anyone.

Well, maybe a small issue... homeless people still have a right to vote but have difficulty registering to vote because they need a 'permanent address' to receive the registration.

It is almost impossible to get by without a state ID, driver license or state ID card, You can't open a bank account without it. State IDs can require SS cards and birth certificates. That creates fear in supporters of illegal immigration.

Whenever I started a new job picture ID and SS card were required. When I worked as a contractor at Boeing I had to provide a birth certificate.

not buy the argument that voter ID restricts ability to vote.

Here in Wa a 6 year ID card is $54 f0r 8 years.

All of which ignores two major facts in this debate:

1. No matter how easy/cheap YOU may think it is to obtain various forms of identification, the same is NOT true for everyone. Just look at what has recently happened to people seeking asylum. They were (wrongly) arrested, and their documents taken from them never to be returned. Now they are unable to replace those documents to prove their identities or apply for asylum. That example has nothing to do with voting, but a similar scenario plays out for people who are economically forced to move frequently, or are of an age where original birth certificates are not available, etc. Just because YOU are so privileged that ID is easy/cheap doesn't make it so for everyone.

2. Again, if ANY type of ID were acceptable as back-up to the voter registration, we would not be having this discussion.

The reality is that REPUBLICANS pass laws with highly restricted forms of acceptable IDs. They generally refuse to accept anything that a poor person, young person and/or liberal person would normally have or easily obtain.

They list things like concealed carry gun permits - a form of ID that your typical poor, black, or college-aged person is highly unlikely to have.

The issue is not "voter registration". The issue is the purposeful voter disenfranchisement via restrictively crafted "voter ID" laws by Republicans for the sole purpose of cheating the elections.

 

[RavenSky]

I'm not opposed to having citizens present ID at the polling station. I'm against burdensome requirements for getting the needed documents. I'm against denying old people the right to vote because birth certificates weren't routinely issued when/where they were born. I'm against purging voter lists without triple checking in order to ensure that no one is mistakenly/maliciously removed from the rolls. I'm against forcing people to pay a fee in order to exercise a Constitutional right.

If a state wants to require citizens to show ID at the polling booth, it should make damn sure that every citizen receives one for free. They can pay for the program out of the same funds they use for voting machines and ballots.

^^^ THIS!

 

[Copernicus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States

I note that steve_bank lives in a state that does not, in fact, strictly require a voter to present identification prior to voting.

Well, it's complicated. Washington now has universal vote-by-mail, but states with voter-ID laws do not require mail-in ballots to send a photo-ID along with the ballot. You just mail in your ballot, and they verify your identity by checking the signature against one that they have a record of--a casual visual examination by people who have little or no expertise in recognizing fraudulent signatures. You can vote by dropping the ballot in a collection box (which I have done in the past) or mailing the ballot in. Until this most recent election, voters had to supply their own postage. The state now supplies voters with postage-paid envelopes.

Now, to set the record straight on this, you can vote in person in the state of Washington, because there are a few designated centers with voting booths. They aren't convenient for most people, and I have no idea how well they are used (or, indeed, if they even are still in use). Before universal vote-by-mail, I did vote in person, and the state did require photo IDs. This was a total nuisance, because I had voted in the same precinct for years without such an ID until the Republican-sponsored photo-ID law was imposed. Of course, I could have voted by absentee ballot, which never required a photo ID. Republicans were more likely to vote by mail back then, so there was no perceived need for any restriction on that method of voting. These laws only exist to make it harder for likely Democratic voters to cast a successful ballot.

If you lack a proper ID in states with these nuisance laws, you can usually still cast a provisional ballot. That is fine with Republican sponsors of the law, because such ballots are seldom even counted.

As Steve has pointed out, you have to register in order to vote, and registration entails some kind of proof of residence. Registration to vote is stupid, since any process that requires proof of residence should qualify a person of legal age to vote. Some states automatically register citizens when they obtain a driver license or other from of ID, and that should be enough. There ought to be no separate process to qualify to vote in a state's elections.

 

[steve_bank]

I am living in a rehab/assisted living facility. Many people on SS and Medicaid and with mobility problems. The state allows them $60 a month out of SS the rest going to rent. People in wheelchairs get on busses and go around Seattle. If they need to get somewhere not accessible they call on family and friends, use Seattle assisted transport, or use volunteer ride services. . They all have IDs. You can not open a bank account to deposit your monthly SS without an ID. You're drinking the pro illegal immigration kool aid.

I am not anti immigration, I am against open borders.

You're the one drinking the kool-aid. The problem of fraudulent voting at the polls is basically zero. A simple test: Any such measure that disenfranchises more Americans than it stops illegal votes is obviously harmful. Voter ID requirements fail this test by several orders of magnitude.

That is the pollyannaish progressive view. There has always been fraud. It is minimized today because of our aggressive media and technology, but it certainly occurs.

I do not know if photo ID will have any material affect on anything. What I disagree with is the argument against it in the OP.

In the general legal population I doubt there is any significant number of people who have no state or federal ID at all or are so isolated that an ID is difficult to get.

The push for photo ID is obviously from the right partly posturing for the Trump base. The problem is that if it is made mandatory it does nothing to improve the abysmal immigration mess we are in that has developed over many decades.

Reports have shown how easy it is to get a fake license and SS card in the southwest, there is a market for it and it is not all that expensive.

 

[Copernicus]

...In the general legal population I doubt there is any significant number of people who have no state or federal ID at all or are so isolated that an ID is difficult to get.

But having a state or federal ID is not the issue. It is having one that will let you vote. That's why these laws are often designed to favor likely Republican voters and disfavor likely Democratic ones. So, for example, some states forbid students from out of state to use their student photo ID, even though students have a legal right to vote in those states. OTOH, a permit to carry a gun may be allowed in such states, because those who have such permits are more likely to be Republicans.

The push for photo ID is obviously from the right partly posturing for the Trump base. The problem is that if it is made mandatory it does nothing to improve the abysmal immigration mess we are in that has developed over many decades.

There is no "immigration mess" connected to voter registration and elections. That is simply a trumped up claim without any basis in fact. But you are correct that the push for photo IDs is obviously from the right. That is because such laws are intended to suppress the votes of people with a legal right to vote who happen to be likely Democratic voters. Hence, the partisan push for photo IDs. These laws are not aimed at people who have snuck into the US illegally and attempted to vote. They are aimed at legal voting citizens who happen to belong to a political party.

Reports have shown how easy it is to get a fake license and SS card in the southwest, there is a market for it and it is not all that expensive.

What reports? One can always find reports that confirm a bias, but they may not necessarily be reports that have a basis in fact.

 

[Derec]

Given that ID is not free in the US, is not easy to get for everyone and these laws and purges strip the constitutional right to votes from tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of legal voters...

An id is very easy to get, and where it's not free the costs are quite nominal.

Do you people also feel it is okay to lock up men who might be at risk of being rapists until they can prove they aren’t rapists? Take away their civil rights if they can’t afford a good lawyer and days in court?

Huh? What does this have to do with anything? Other than you indulging your radfem fantasies of locking up innocent men, of course.

Seems like it would be right up your alley. Is it?

No, it's just a radical feminist fantasy.