R.I.P. Yevgeny Prigozhin

[Jimmy Higgins]

There are good arguments the plane was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile. The situation of the entire leadership being aboard one plane made this an opportunity too good for Putin to miss.

All we know is that there was likely a plane that crashed. We don't know who was in the plane, we don't know why the plane crashed. All we know is that Russia was real quick to announce that guy was on the passenger list. And we know that Russia nearly immediately announced a "special" investigation. So that tells us that Russia was/is/will continue to lie about the former boss of Wagner Group.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

There are good arguments the plane was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile. The situation of the entire leadership being aboard one plane made this an opportunity too good for Putin to miss.

All we know is that there was likely a plane that crashed. We don't know who was in the plane, we don't know why the plane crashed. All we know is that Russia was real quick to announce that guy was on the passenger list. And we know that Russia nearly immediately announced a "special" investigation. So that tells us that Russia was/is/will continue to lie about the former boss of Wagner Group.

We know exactly who was on the plane. Videos show the tail section and a wing were blown off the plane. There is no sort of accident that could account for that. Wreckage of the plane on videos was full of holes. AA missile warheads utilize shrapnel to destroy a target. The plane was too high for a manpad. So the missile had to be a military medium range missile. Such as an S-400. That close to Moscow, only a Russian military missile could have done it. Within 15 minutes, official government news sources were broadcasting the news and details. Strongly suggesting that this crash was anticipated by the government.

 

[TV and credit cards]

 

[TomC]

There are good arguments the plane was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile. The situation of the entire leadership being aboard one plane made this an opportunity too good for Putin to miss.

All we know is that there was likely a plane that crashed. We don't know who was in the plane, we don't know why the plane crashed. All we know is that Russia was real quick to announce that guy was on the passenger list. And we know that Russia nearly immediately announced a "special" investigation. So that tells us that Russia was/is/will continue to lie about the former boss of Wagner Group.

We know exactly who was on the plane. Videos show the tail section and a wing were blown off the plane. There is no sort of accident that could account for that. Wreckage of the plane on videos was full of holes. AA missile warheads utilize shrapnel to destroy a target. The plane was too high for a manpad. So the missile had to be a military medium range missile. Such as an S-400. That close to Moscow, only a Russian military missile could have done it. Within 15 minutes, official government news sources were broadcasting the news and details. Strongly suggesting that this crash was anticipated by the government.

You have a ton more trust in the media coming out of that situation than I do.
"We know exactly who was on the plane."
Seriously?
Tom

 

[TomC]

One of the things about this situation is the Machiavellian nature of such an oligarchy losing a war.
Putin isn't the only person with a vested interest in Prigozhin. Prigozhin may not even have been the target, but more like a bonus kill. Or even an unfortunate mishap.

Who knows what is going on. Certainly not me. And I don't put much stock in outsiders claiming that they do.
Tom

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Apparently, there was a passenger list at the Moscow airport. The Russian government quickly released a list of the dead.

 

[TomC]

Apparently, there was a passenger list at the Moscow airport. The Russian government quickly released a list of the dead.

So, now we're not even talking about the credibility of the media.

It's the credibility of the Russian government concerning Prigozhin, his whereabouts, cause of death, and responsibility.
Sorry, I'm not buying.
Tom

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The Wagnerites on board were not sneaking around clandestinely. I am sure that the list of passengers aboard this flight was immediately given to Pootie's thugs.

.....
Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a plane that crashed in Russia's Tver region on Wednesday, according to the press service of Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency. He is presumed dead.

Ten people were killed in the crash near the town of Kuzhenkino, including Prigozhin.

"An investigation has been launched into the crash of the Embraer aircraft, which occurred tonight in the Tver region. According to the list of passengers, among them is the name and surname of Yevgeny Prigozhin," the department said in a statement.
......

Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead in plane crash in Russia

Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin is presumed dead following a plane crash in Russia's Tver region on Wednesday.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

An investigation? Videos of the downed aircraft site, the black box recivered never to be seen again, and bottles of celebratory vodka ordered.

 

[bilby]

Even on commercial flights, passenger lists aren't 100% reliable. It's not unheard of for people to fly under someone else's name, or even using someone else's passport.

And of course it's trivially easy for anyone who has access to the list to make changes to it before, during, or after a flight. Getting that access might be tricky for most people, but the Russian government isn't "most people".

I wouldn't trust a passenger list published by the Russian authorities as far as I could throw a brick chimney by its smoke.

 

[Gospel]

I go to great lengths to avoid flying because I have an aversion to it. The idea of being confined in an aircraft with uncivilized passengers at altitudes of 9,000 to 12,000 meters above the sea discourages me. I certainly wouldn't consider boarding a flight anywhere in the vicinity of Russia, especially after releasing a diss track directed at Putin.

 

[TomC]

Putin praised Prigozhin for his “contributions to fighting Nazis in Ukraine”

Weird because Prigozhin’s right hand man, Dmitry Utkin, who died alongside him, is a known Neo-Nazi.

This kinda makes me wonder about something else.
Who in Wagner stood to benefit from both of them biting the bullet? Together, and very publicly? While the blame would obviously go to Putin.

No doubt there were several people in Wagner alone that fit the description

Tom

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Putin is now demandingball Wagner soldiers takeca personal oath of loyalty to him. Don't worry, Putin will soon appoint some trusted flunkies to run Wagner in a more desirable manner.

 

[TomC]

Putin is now demandingball Wagner soldiers takeca personal oath of loyalty to him. Don't worry, Putin will soon appoint some trusted flunkies to run Wagner in a more desirable manner.

Would such an oath be worth the paper it's written on?

Which flunkies, once given the power of Wagner, could Putin trust?
Tom

 

[LoAmmo]

What the fuck is it with right-wing authoritarians and their stupid, performative, imaginary loyalty “oaths”?

 

[Elixir]

What the fuck is it with right-wing authoritarians and their stupid, performative, imaginary loyalty “oaths”?

Prolly fear of getting stabbed in the back?
If the oath is delivered without a certain threshold of enthusiasm, that one needs an eye on him, or elimination.

 

[TomC]

What the fuck is it with right-wing authoritarians and their stupid, performative, imaginary loyalty “oaths”?

Prolly fear of getting stabbed in the back?
If the oath is delivered without a certain threshold of enthusiasm, that one needs an eye on him, or elimination.

The best liars can look you straight in the eye and be totally sincere.
Because they really believe their own lie, at least as long as necessary.

Don't ask me how much I know about this. I'll prolly just lie to you.
Tom

 

[Gun Nut]

There are good arguments the plane was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile. The situation of the entire leadership being aboard one plane made this an opportunity too good for Putin to miss.

All we know is that there was likely a plane that crashed. We don't know who was in the plane, we don't know why the plane crashed. All we know is that Russia was real quick to announce that guy was on the passenger list. And we know that Russia nearly immediately announced a "special" investigation. So that tells us that Russia was/is/will continue to lie about the former boss of Wagner Group.

We know exactly who was on the plane. Videos show the tail section and a wing were blown off the plane. There is no sort of accident that could account for that. Wreckage of the plane on videos was full of holes. AA missile warheads utilize shrapnel to destroy a target. The plane was too high for a manpad. So the missile had to be a military medium range missile. Such as an S-400. That close to Moscow, only a Russian military missile could have done it. Within 15 minutes, official government news sources were broadcasting the news and details. Strongly suggesting that this crash was anticipated by the government.

I'm not trying to start a conspiracy, or stop one... but I just wanted to comment that if the tail section was lost in flight, then both vertical and horizontal stabilizers would be lost with it, and the violent roll and yaw that would immediately follow would assuredly rip the wings right off. IF this is what happened, then the tail, separated wing, and fuselage would be found a considerable distance from each other, depending on the altitude it was flying at the time. If it was engine failure (yeah, right) or some other non-structural failure, then the wreckage would contain all of the airframe components reasonably close to one another.
Just say'in.

 

[TV and credit cards]

So Yevgeny is gone.
No fanfare. Hardly a mention from Putin of his efforts in Ukraine or his Hero of Russia award. Low key funeral. I guess there was some bitching on line from the ultranationalists but nothing taken to the streets not even in Prigozhin's hometown of St. Petersburg. Gotta give it to Putin, he knows how to handle any threat to the state. I suppose it doesn't hurt that in Russia everybody hates everybody else so no way the ultranationalists were going to coalesce and rally to any purpose. And Wagnerian's allegiance will go to the best contract put before them.
Works for Vlad.

 

[TomC]

his Hero of Russia award.

I have no real idea what that means.

But it sounds like a fun motivation for some performance art.

Suppose some folks stage a "Prigozhin, Hero of Russia!" stage revue. Sponsored by TRUMP. Ex-President Donald J Trump is in no position to get all claimy about the word trump in all caps.

We'll have Randy Rainbow do the lyrics and music.
The possibilities are endless.
Tom