racial height differences poll

[ApostateAbe]

What is the primary cause of the average height difference between whites and Asians in the USA?

 

[DBT]

Probably a combination of environment and genes. Likely it's more a case of environment (traditional diet) than genes. New generations of Asians appear to be getting taller.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Probably a combination of environment and genes. Likely it's more a case of environment (traditional diet) than genes. New generations of Asians appear to be getting taller.

What is it about their diets? Is it the rice? MSG? Ramen?

 

[DBT]

Probably a combination of environment and genes. Likely it's more a case of environment (traditional diet) than genes. New generations of Asians appear to be getting taller.

What is it about their diets? Is it the rice? MSG? Ramen?

Probably not any single factor. Overall calorie intake, eating patterns, perhaps smaller meals...

 

[ApostateAbe]

What is it about their diets? Is it the rice? MSG? Ramen?

Probably not any single factor. Overall calorie intake, eating patterns, perhaps smaller meals...

I expect there is a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever discovers this combination of bad diet choices. Would you predict that Asians adopted by white parents are as tall as whites on average?

 

[Bronzeage]

Probably not any single factor. Overall calorie intake, eating patterns, perhaps smaller meals...

I expect there is a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever discovers this combination of bad diet choices. Would you predict that Asians adopted by white parents are as tall as whites on average?

The average height of a Roman Legionnaire was five feet and six inches which is an inch shorter than the contemporary Japanese man. What is the reason for this?

 

[ApostateAbe]

I expect there is a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever discovers this combination of bad diet choices. Would you predict that Asians adopted by white parents are as tall as whites on average?

The average height of a Roman Legionnaire was five feet and six inches which is an inch shorter than the contemporary Japanese man. What is the reason for this?

All races have seen secular increases in height. My hypothesis is epigenetic shifts triggered by the shift to a highly industrialized society. Other highly-heritable polygenic traits have also seen secular increases: intelligence, head size at birth, myopia, and obesity.

 

[Bronzeage]

The average height of a Roman Legionnaire was five feet and six inches which is an inch shorter than the contemporary Japanese man. What is the reason for this?

All races have seen secular increases in height. My hypothesis is epigenetic shifts triggered by the shift to a highly industrialized society. Other highly-heritable polygenic traits have also seen secular increases: intelligence, head size at birth, myopia, and obesity.

It was only 2000 years ago, and at that time, the people of the Italian peninsula were probably the best fed and healthiest of any in the world. Many decades of grain surpluses meant everyone, from slaves to Senators, everyone ate well.

At the same time, they were fighting Germanic tribes who averaged 6 feet tall. How would we determine if the Romans were more intelligent than the Germans?

 

[ApostateAbe]

All races have seen secular increases in height. My hypothesis is epigenetic shifts triggered by the shift to a highly industrialized society. Other highly-heritable polygenic traits have also seen secular increases: intelligence, head size at birth, myopia, and obesity.

It was only 2000 years ago, and at that time, the people of the Italian peninsula were probably the best fed and healthiest of any in the world. Many decades of grain surpluses meant everyone, from slaves to Senators, everyone ate well.

At the same time, they were fighting Germanic tribes who averaged 6 feet tall. How would we determine if the Romans were more intelligent than the Germans?

"...Germanic tribes who averaged 6 feet tall."

Seems like an incredible claim, and I would love to learn the evidence for that.

"How would we determine if the Romans were more intelligent than the Germans?"

I expect cranial capacity would be such a method, but best leave that conversation for another thread.

 

[Bronzeage]

It was only 2000 years ago, and at that time, the people of the Italian peninsula were probably the best fed and healthiest of any in the world. Many decades of grain surpluses meant everyone, from slaves to Senators, everyone ate well.

At the same time, they were fighting Germanic tribes who averaged 6 feet tall. How would we determine if the Romans were more intelligent than the Germans?

"...Germanic tribes who averaged 6 feet tall."

Seems like an incredible claim, and I would love to learn the evidence for that.

"How would we determine if the Romans were more intelligent than the Germans?"

I expect cranial capacity would be such a method, but best leave that conversation for another thread.

It's well documented that the Germanic Tribes were taller than the Romans. Some Roman commanders thought this was an advantage and tried to form Legions of men all over 5'10. The Roman diet of bread, fruit, vegetables and olive oil produced bodies that were compact and strong. The northern Europeans depended more upon meat and this produced tall lean bodies. One would be hard pressed to find a great genetic difference between a Roman and a German.

There has long been a racial stereotype of Asia women which portrays them to have slender hips and small breasts. However, once the immigrate to the United States, their granddaughters grow up to be as well endowed as any blue eyed cheerleader. Even though their parentage is all Chinese(or other Asian nation), by the 2nd generation, they have assimilated enough American culture to grow up on an American diet, high in sugar, fat, and meat protein.

This points to the downfall of observational genetic analysis. People who happen to look similar to everyone else, also happen to eat what everyone else eats and live in the same environment as everyone else. It's easy to mistake environmental effects for genetics.

As for intelligence and brain size, that's a hard sell, since no one has yet to devise an intelligence test which is not dependent on cultural bias. The idea of determining intelligence of people long dead is silly.

 

[ApostateAbe]

"...Germanic tribes who averaged 6 feet tall."

Seems like an incredible claim, and I would love to learn the evidence for that.

"How would we determine if the Romans were more intelligent than the Germans?"

I expect cranial capacity would be such a method, but best leave that conversation for another thread.

It's well documented that the Germanic Tribes were taller than the Romans. Some Roman commanders thought this was an advantage and tried to form Legions of men all over 5'10. The Roman diet of bread, fruit, vegetables and olive oil produced bodies that were compact and strong. The northern Europeans depended more upon meat and this produced tall lean bodies. One would be hard pressed to find a great genetic difference between a Roman and a German.

There has long been a racial stereotype of Asia women which portrays them to have slender hips and small breasts. However, once the immigrate to the United States, their granddaughters grow up to be as well endowed as any blue eyed cheerleader. Even though their parentage is all Chinese(or other Asian nation), by the 2nd generation, they have assimilated enough American culture to grow up on an American diet, high in sugar, fat, and meat protein.

This points to the downfall of observational genetic analysis. People who happen to look similar to everyone else, also happen to eat what everyone else eats and live in the same environment as everyone else. It's easy to mistake environmental effects for genetics.

As for intelligence and brain size, that's a hard sell, since no one has yet to devise an intelligence test which is not dependent on cultural bias. The idea of determining intelligence of people long dead is silly.

"It's well documented that the Germanic Tribes were taller than the Romans."

I accept that. I don't yet accept that they were on average six feet tall. In the ancient world, that would make them giants.

"One would be hard pressed to find a great genetic difference between a Roman and a German."

The diet explanation is plausible, but the genetic explanation is not out of the question, as there was and there remains differences in allele frequencies between the two groups, as between any groups of differing geography. Today, Germans have a two-inch height advantage over Italians. As within-group heritability of height is 0.9, the most probable explanation remains a genetic difference.

"There has long been a racial stereotype of Asia women which portrays them to have slender hips and small breasts. However, once the immigrate to the United States, their granddaughters grow up to be as well endowed as any blue eyed cheerleader. Even though their parentage is all Chinese(or other Asian nation), by the 2nd generation, they have assimilated enough American culture to grow up on an American diet, high in sugar, fat, and meat protein."

This is another extraordinary claim! Maybe it is based on your own personal observations, but they do not match my own. Maybe the boobs of third-generation Asians are bigger than first-generation, but almost certainly not as big as whites.

"...no one has yet to devise an intelligence test which is not dependent on cultural bias."

The myth of the cultural bias of intelligence tests is really just a myth, as cultural bias is measurable in many ways, it is roundly disconfirmed, and intelligence researchers on all sides of the race debate are on the same side when it comes to that popular myth. If you would like more details, I can write a new post on it. I can also write a new post on the correlation between intelligence and cranial capacity.

 

[DBT]

As for the Roman army, there is mention that the Marian reforms required recruits to be around 5'10.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I expect there is a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever discovers this combination of bad diet choices.

What makes you so sure they're bad diet choices?

Why is taller necessarily better?

 

[ApostateAbe]

I expect there is a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever discovers this combination of bad diet choices.

What makes you so sure they're bad diet choices?

Why is taller necessarily better?

Taller men are sexier.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Probably a combination of environment and genes. Likely it's more a case of environment (traditional diet) than genes. New generations of Asians appear to be getting taller.

What is it about their diets? Is it the rice? MSG? Ramen?

KFC, Chinese foods, high vegetable intake. Some Chinese in the North of China are as tall as Dutch people. In the South they get smaller. However this is changing.

https://ourworldindata.org/human-height/

World Heights overall have increased since 1820 to 1980 per the graph in the link

In 1860 the average height of Filipinos was 5ft 1inch (155cm) Now it is still short at 5ft 3in (162.5cm) but there are also some very tall ones around

The Average of French people has increased just over 12cm from 163.9 to 176cm The Netherlands has increase from 163.3 to 180cm since 1820.

Here is a study done several years ago.
The Effects of Immigration on Height Differences

In a pioneering study of Japanese immigrants to Hawaii published in 1939, Harry Shapiro found there to be a significant difference between the heights of Hawaiian-born Japanese and the Japanese immigrant population.6 Shapiro concluded that environmental factors, particularly diet and healthcare, play a significant role in determining height and other physical characteristics. The underlying idea here is that migration from poor countries to rich ones may lead to dramatic changes between generations. In a similar study, Marcus Goldstein (1943) found there to be differences in the heights and other characteristics of the children of Mexican immigrants and their parents, as well as with native born Mexican children
7.Goldstein MS (1943) Demographic and Bodily Changes in Descendants of Mexican Immigrants. Austin, TX: University of Texas Institute of Latin American Studies

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Shouldn't we want people to get smaller? Eat less food? Consume less resources over future generations as our numbers continue to skyrocket?

 

[iolo]

Different families and populations are different sizes, often to fit working conditions or food supplies, as many miners are short where seams are low, and people are slight where food is poor. There are no races since the Neanderthals ceased to be a separate group - we are all just human, and not only can but do interbreed at will. As with male peacocks' tails, there is a sexual selection towards height, which is propably pushing its practical limit in advanced countries.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

The cause must be intelligence.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What makes you so sure they're bad diet choices?

Why is taller necessarily better?

Taller men are sexier.

Well, that's a perfectly rational, and not at all subjective basis for such a distinction.

Of course, on the submarines I served on, the tallest men kept knocking themselves against light fixtures, pipes, the tops of hatches. Nothing sexy about bruises and concussions.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Taller men are sexier.

Well, that's a perfectly rational, and not at all subjective basis for such a distinction.

Of course, on the submarines I served on, the tallest men kept knocking themselves against light fixtures, pipes, the tops of hatches. Nothing sexy about bruises and concussions.

Speak plainly and tell me what you really believe. You believe that a man's height has nothing to do with what makes a man sexy. I take that back, you can't possibly believe that.