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racial height differences poll

What is the primary cause of the average height difference between whites and Asians in the USA?

  • Genetic differences are the cause

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Environmental cause, i.e. Asians eat too much rice and it makes them short, or they study too much m

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • I have no idea. It is anyone's guess which race is taller than another on average. Maybe Asians are

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Other (explain).

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • Total voters
    10
OK I bolded it again. Just in case you can't see it is reads "The absence of modern human features in the region of the fifth finger ..."

Sheesh.

Your insistence on sustaining the idea the hand is a fixed, unchanged (unchangeable?), thing is amazing.


I also find your notion resisting genetic gradualism in favor of your apparent fixed punctuated evolution to be almost religious in its refusal accept what is printed in front of you. The hand has changed over the period of tool making. It is pretty hard to use a few bones to make points but archaeologists have been at this one for more than 150 years now and it is apparent changes in the structure and capabilities of the human hand have taken place over the last four million years.
 
OK I bolded it again. Just in case you can't see it is reads "The absence of modern human features in the region of the fifth finger ..."

Sheesh.

Your insistence on sustaining the idea the hand is a fixed, unchanged (unchangeable?), thing is amazing.


I also find your notion resisting genetic gradualism in favor of your apparent fixed punctuated evolution to be almost religious in its refusal accept what is printed in front of you. The hand has changed over the period of tool making. It is pretty hard to use a few bones to make points but archaeologists have been at this one for more than 150 years now and it is apparent changes in the structure and capabilities of the human hand have taken place over the last four million years.

The fifth finger? The fifth finger is the pinkie finger. Not used much at all for any activity.

Show me these differences.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.
 
When you learn to read, I'll consider showing you such as differences. Not missing a fifth finger but having morphological differences in the region of the fifth finger. Other articles I referenced concentrated on Neanderthal hand and the human thumb. Just because I provided a reference for the whole article and took pithy pieces for your pleasure doesn't mean you shouldn't read it.

If you want to talk about, human eyes, ears, touch, smell, brain, flexibility, endurance, etc. I also know something about those since my career was conducting research and designing and building stuff IAW human factors and ergonomics.

What I find so unusual about you is your Messianic approach to things.
 
When you learn to read, I'll consider showing you such as differences. Not missing a fifth finger but having morphological differences in the region of the fifth finger. Other articles I referenced concentrated on Neanderthal hand and the human thumb. Just because I provided a reference for the whole article and took pithy pieces for your pleasure doesn't mean you shouldn't read it.

If you want to talk about, human eyes, ears, touch, smell, brain, flexibility, endurance, etc. I also know something about those since my career was conducting research and designing and building stuff IAW human factors and ergonomics.

What I find so unusual about you is your Messianic approach to things.

Please tell me about these anatomical differences. You are the one making the claim.

Please be specific, I have a thorough knowledge of human anatomy.

Tell me about all these changes to the pinkie that have taken place in the last 2 million years.

And then tell me why you think this is significant change over such a long time span.

But to make one thing clear. You are saying the wrist bones and the first four fingers have not changed to any significant degree?

IN 2 MILLION YEARS!!
 
If you want to talk about, human eyes, ears, touch, smell, brain, flexibility, endurance, etc. I also know something about those since my career was conducting research and designing and building stuff IAW human factors and ergonomics.

The issue is about evolution.

Some have a very naive notion that evolution is about constant change.

When the clear facts show it is not true.

There is change of some things and preservation of other things.

And the things that change rapidly like height or skin color are meaningless. Humans can survive and reproduce at any height or with any skin color.

While the things that resist change like the hand or other functional systems are significant. Change these and the likelihood of reproduction usually declines.
 
If you want to talk about, human eyes, ears, touch, smell, brain, flexibility, endurance, etc. I also know something about those since my career was conducting research and designing and building stuff IAW human factors and ergonomics.

The issue is about evolution.

Some have a very naive notion that evolution is about constant change.

When the clear facts show it is not true.

There is change of some things and preservation of other things.

And the things that change rapidly like height or skin color are meaningless. Humans can survive and reproduce at any height or with any skin color.

While the things that resist change like the hand or other functional systems are significant. Change these and the likelihood of reproduction usually declines.

There is no resistance, no sentience, no destiny, no inherent means, just mutation that leaves things as they are or changes things. If tool making leads to good consequences mutations related to aspects of tool making that increase that advantage are preferred.

Mutation is the result of chance and physics which tends to a norm, thus continuous mutation hypothesis.

Disasters happen randomly opening up niches through which mutations or unfavorably positioned competing genes may become the most fit. The hand is one of those things that have demonstrably changed with the advent of tool making. Thus the punctuated hypothesis.

Whether the first instance of tool making advantage resulted from mutation or disaster is an open, unanswerable, question.

Besides the fineness required to resolve such an issue is beyond the magnification of the tools we have at hand and the material available for us to evaluate.

Personally, given the state of genetic analysis art, change in preferences for competing genes rather than mutation background seems to be the most likely mechanism driving new niche availability for species or appearance punctuate new dominant attributes.
 
untermensche:

Only a very stupid individual would draw that conclusion.

The point is: systems are not end traits and they do not change in the same manner that end traits change.

A point you are clearly incapable of even addressing.
I don't see any point in reading further. It is pretty clear that you are ineducable, and certainly your posts are only convincing me of your arrogance and lack of knowledge and understanding of evolutionary biology. I think I have made such points as I wished to. Bye.

Peez
 
untermensche:

Only a very stupid individual would draw that conclusion.

The point is: systems are not end traits and they do not change in the same manner that end traits change.

A point you are clearly incapable of even addressing.
I don't see any point in reading further. It is pretty clear that you are ineducable, and certainly your posts are only convincing me of your arrogance and lack of knowledge and understanding of evolutionary biology. I think I have made such points as I wished to. Bye.

Peez

Since you've added nothing but the lowest form of childish insults and clearly have little knowledge of evolution (the concept of biological system seems to be news to you) this is no big matter.

Why you think you need to tell anyone you've come to the end of your understanding and are running away is perplexing.
 
The issue is about evolution.

Some have a very naive notion that evolution is about constant change.

When the clear facts show it is not true.

There is change of some things and preservation of other things.

And the things that change rapidly like height or skin color are meaningless. Humans can survive and reproduce at any height or with any skin color.

While the things that resist change like the hand or other functional systems are significant. Change these and the likelihood of reproduction usually declines.

There is no resistance...

No resistance to change in the skeletal structure of the hand?

You simply won't believe your eyes because the picture is in conflict with your preconceptions and misunderstandings of evolution.

Gould is right about the resistance to change within species. And the fossil record backs him up. We don't see gradual change in the human skeletal structure. We do see punctuated changes to the skull which reflect changes to the brain which seem to occur but they occur instantaneously in terms of the fossil record. We see no intermediaries.

And possibly it took the last great leap into the modern human brain to have the capacity for the language system. Which is the core of the cognitive system. Which integrated with what was probably already an elaborate system of animal communication (not language).

no sentience

The sentience of reproductive success. That which grants success must remain for the success to remain.

The sentience of sexual selection. Those visible or auditory or possibly tactile traits most appealing will have a greater likelihood of sexual success and therefore likely reproductive success.

no destiny

Oh no! Say it isn't so!!!

no inherent means

The inherent means of reproductive success. You act as if reproductive success is nothing. As if it is meaningless. It isn't everything but it is something.

just mutation that leaves things as they are or changes things

No. There are other things that can happen. There is replication of the same genes. This of course can lead to segmentation.

1440063932_anatomy-human-anatomy-human-body-spine-back-bones.jpg

And segmentation is what makes us possible. Mutation is necessary in combination with the initial replications.

If tool making leads to good consequences mutations related to aspects of tool making that increase that advantage are preferred

Evidence disproves this.

As human culture developed humans became better and better at tool making but the hand did not change at all.

What made human culture possible was language. Humans had a hand a long time before they had culture. Most likely meaning language arose very recently (within 50,000 to 100,00 years ago) and it arose very quickly.

Mutation is the result of chance and physics which tends to a norm, thus continuous mutation hypothesis.

That's not in dispute.

Most of the mutations do nothing. Those that do something most likely do something negative.

The very rare mutations that actually do something positive MIGHT get passed on and spread to offspring. They might not.

Geniuses do not pass their genius to their offspring.

All these factors about mutations create a stability within the genome.

Disasters happen randomly opening up niches through which mutations or unfavorably positioned competing genes may become the most fit.

Yes, it with the occasional catastrophic events that great changes take place.

This is part of the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium.

But in general species resist change. The fossil record is clear on this.

The hand is one of those things that have demonstrably changed with the advent of tool making. Thus the punctuated hypothesis.

The relation of the hand to tool making is pure speculation.

And there are still questions when the modern human structure arrived.

Earliest modern human-like hand bone from a new >1.84-million-year-old site at Olduvai in Tanzania

The discovery of OH 86 suggests that a hominin with a more MHL postcranium co-existed with Paranthropus boisei and Homo habilis at Olduvai during Bed I times.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8987
 
No resistance to change in the skeletal structure of the hand?

Yeah, you hang in there... human hands haven't changed since god created us. :lol:

That's as incoherent and shows as little understanding of what is being said as possible.

How is no significant change in 2 million years or possibly only > 1.87 million years not resistance to change?

What is the magic number where we say we see resistance to change?

10 million years? A billion?

What is your estimate?

I say if you see resistance greater than a million years you are seeing something significant. It's arbitrary, but hard to argue with.

But I'm assuming you can even form a argument beyond "In my irrationality I equate resistance to change to some notion of god. How I make the connection is a miracle".
 
What is the magic number where we say we see resistance to change?
:hysterical:

Where the hell did you get the idea that there is a "magic number" or "a resistance to change"?

You need to learn a little something about how evolution works if you want to discuss it... that is unless your intent is to look like a blithering idiot.
 
What is the magic number where we say we see resistance to change?
:hysterical:

Where the hell did you get the idea that there is a "magic number" or "a resistance to change"?

You need to learn a little something about how evolution works if you want to discuss it... that is unless your intent is to look like a blithering idiot.

If you see no change to the bones of the hand in >1.87 million years (see study above) how is this not described as resistance to change?

How long must something remain the same before you can see resistance to change?

I suspect both these questions are beyond your capacities to even comprehend.

But others can laugh at your blindness.
 
:hysterical:

Where the hell did you get the idea that there is a "magic number" or "a resistance to change"?

You need to learn a little something about how evolution works if you want to discuss it... that is unless your intent is to look like a blithering idiot.

If you see no change to the bones of the hand in >1.87 million years (see study above) how is this not described as resistance to change?

How long must something remain the same before you can see resistance to change?

I suspect both these questions are beyond your capacities to even comprehend.

But others can laugh at your blindness.

You seem stuck on the creationist notion of irreducible complexity. Just because an anatomical feature or biological function changes little over time doesn't mean it's "resistant to change." It just means that there hasn't been significant selective pressure on that anatomy or function. But where there is, natural selection can be quick, e.g., lactose tolerance, sickle-cell trait.

Intense natural selection caused a rapid morphological transition in a living marine snail

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC386617/
 
:hysterical:

Where the hell did you get the idea that there is a "magic number" or "a resistance to change"?

You need to learn a little something about how evolution works if you want to discuss it... that is unless your intent is to look like a blithering idiot.

How long must something remain the same before you can see resistance to change?
:hysterical: Thanks... I really enjoy a good laugh.

As I mentioned, you really need to learn a little about evolution if you want to discuss it. But then you seem to have taken the other option of just entertaining us with absurdity which is fine since I do enjoy absurdity. I am a big Monty Python fan - the parrot's not dead... it is just resting.
 
How long must something remain the same before you can see resistance to change?
:hysterical: Thanks... I really enjoy a good laugh.

As I mentioned, you really need to learn a little about evolution if you want to discuss it. But then you seem to have taken the other option of just entertaining us with absurdity which is fine since I do enjoy absurdity. I am a big Monty Python fan.

You don't seem capable of addressing one thing.

I posted a study, you have to be able to read to understand it.

It concludes that the modern skeletal structure of the hand existed >1.87 million years ago.

How is this NOT resistance to change?

I'll take one more evasion as a sign you are merely harassing me.
 
If you see no change to the bones of the hand in >1.87 million years (see study above) how is this not described as resistance to change?

How long must something remain the same before you can see resistance to change?

I suspect both these questions are beyond your capacities to even comprehend.

But others can laugh at your blindness.

You seem stuck on the creationist notion of irreducible complexity. Just because an anatomical feature or biological function changes little over time doesn't mean it's "resistant to change." It just means that there hasn't been significant selective pressure on that anatomy or function. But where there is, natural selection can be quick, e.g., lactose tolerance, sickle-cell trait.

Intense natural selection caused a rapid morphological transition in a living marine snail

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC386617/

This displays a real inability to comprehend what I'm saying and what the evidence shows. Some things change and other things resist change for millions of years. That is evolution.

How has the skeletal structure of the hand changed in the last 1.8 million years?

Please be specific.
 
:hysterical: Thanks... I really enjoy a good laugh.

As I mentioned, you really need to learn a little about evolution if you want to discuss it. But then you seem to have taken the other option of just entertaining us with absurdity which is fine since I do enjoy absurdity. I am a big Monty Python fan.

You don't seem capable of addressing one thing.

I posted a study, you have to be able to read to understand it.

It concludes that the modern skeletal structure of the hand existed >1.87 million years ago.

How is this NOT resistance to change?

I'll take one more evasion as a sign you are merely harassing me.

I think the error is saying it's due to "resistance to change." That's not how evolution and natural selection. If there is selective pressure, or genetic drift, there'll be change.
 
You seem stuck on the creationist notion of irreducible complexity. Just because an anatomical feature or biological function changes little over time doesn't mean it's "resistant to change." It just means that there hasn't been significant selective pressure on that anatomy or function. But where there is, natural selection can be quick, e.g., lactose tolerance, sickle-cell trait.

Intense natural selection caused a rapid morphological transition in a living marine snail

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC386617/

This displays a real inability to comprehend what I'm saying and what the evidence shows. Some things change and other things resist change for millions of years. That is evolution.

How has the skeletal structure of the hand changed in the last 1.8 million years?

Please be specific.

What selective pressures have been applied to the hand in that time? If you can identify significant selective pressures, and no appreciable change due to those pressures, maybe you got something. Otherwise, you might feel more comfortable here: http://www.discovery.org/
 
You seem stuck on the creationist notion of irreducible complexity. Just because an anatomical feature or biological function changes little over time doesn't mean it's "resistant to change." It just means that there hasn't been significant selective pressure on that anatomy or function. But where there is, natural selection can be quick, e.g., lactose tolerance, sickle-cell trait.

Intense natural selection caused a rapid morphological transition in a living marine snail

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC386617/

This displays a real inability to comprehend what I'm saying and what the evidence shows. Some things change and other things resist change for millions of years. That is evolution.

How has the skeletal structure of the hand changed in the last 1.8 million years?

Please be specific.

What selective pressures have been applied to the hand in that time? If you can identify significant selective pressures, and no appreciable change due to those pressures, maybe you got something. Otherwise, you might feel more comfortable here: http://www.discovery.org/

This is hand waving.

Tell me about all the changes over the last 1.87 million years or admit that some things resist change.
 
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