Rape and the virgin birth

[steve_bank]

God creates humans. God forbids fornication, no sex outside of marriage. God impregnates Mary a married woman. How is that not rape? Of course god toys with us at his pleasure.

 

[no-one-particular]

Sounds like rape to me

 

[Learner]

God creates humans. God forbids fornication, no sex outside of marriage. God impregnates Mary a married woman. How is that not rape? Of course god toys with us at his pleasure.

Is artificial insemination considered rape ? Or is it considered "fornication", when sperm used from an anomynous donor from a sperm bank to impregnate a female wanting a child? Not forgetting surrogate mothers.

Come on Steve and N.O.P. you know better than that... the virgin birth is neither fornication or rape.

 

[Juma]

God creates humans. God forbids fornication, no sex outside of marriage. God impregnates Mary a married woman. How is that not rape? Of course god toys with us at his pleasure.

Is artificial insemination considered rape ? Or is it considered "fornication", when sperm used from an anomynous donor from a sperm bank to impregnate a female wanting a child? Not forgetting surrogate mothers.

Come on Steve and N.O.P. you know better than that... the virgin birth is neither fornication or rape.

Insemination without consent isnt rape? Of course it is!

 

[Learner]

Insemination without consent isnt rape? Of course it is!

And the "case" without consent you are referring to?

 

[repoman]

Uh, I am not so sure about rape undertones to the "virgin birth". I think you may be overplaying your hand here.

But look at the Medusa myth. She got a very raw deal and an undeserved reputation.

In a late version of the Medusa myth, related by the Roman poet Ovid (Metamorphoses 4.770), Medusa was originally a ravishingly beautiful maiden, "the jealous aspiration of many suitors," but because Poseidon had raped her in Athena's temple, the enraged Athena transformed Medusa's beautiful hair to serpents and made her face so terrible to behold that the mere sight of it would turn onlookers to stone.[6] In Ovid's telling, Perseus describes Medusa's punishment by Minerva (Athena) as just and well earned.

 

[couch_sloth]

God creates humans. God forbids fornication, no sex outside of marriage. God impregnates Mary a married woman. How is that not rape? Of course god toys with us at his pleasure.

Is artificial insemination considered rape ? Or is it considered "fornication", when sperm used from an anomynous donor from a sperm bank to impregnate a female wanting a child? Not forgetting surrogate mothers.

Come on Steve and N.O.P. you know better than that... the virgin birth is neither fornication or rape.

So you're saying God has semen? Does He have DNA?

 

[southernhybrid]

God creates humans. God forbids fornication, no sex outside of marriage. God impregnates Mary a married woman. How is that not rape? Of course god toys with us at his pleasure.

Is artificial insemination considered rape ? Or is it considered "fornication", when sperm used from an anomynous donor from a sperm bank to impregnate a female wanting a child? Not forgetting surrogate mothers.

Come on Steve and N.O.P. you know better than that... the virgin birth is neither fornication or rape.

Your're right. The virgin birth is just made up bullshit. Good for Mary though, as she actually got a lot of people to believe her story. Some even worship her. Right on sister! You made a fool out of a lot of men.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is artificial insemination considered rape ?

If she doesn't find out about it until afterwards, it's at least going to be an assault charge. If she visited a doctor who, after the exam, mentioned that 'I know you and your fiancé want a baby, so I put one in there while you weren't looking.' Yeah, I could see a rape complaint being filed.

Or is it considered "fornication", when sperm used from an anomynous donor

Anonymous?
Hardly an important point for understanding the Virgin Birth...

to impregnate a female wanting a child?

without her consent, and before she consummates the marriage with her betrothed?

Not forgetting surrogate mothers.

Sure, let's use that as an analogy. A rich couple, say a politician who's very powerful in an area, finds a young woman, one of the volunteers for his campaign, a follower, and has her doctor impregnate her with the couple's kid. THEN they tell her that she's been selected as a surrogate, and she's already pregnant. Do you think she's going to he particularly happy about that? Again, no consent, people fiddling with her no-no place without even buying her dinner first, and presented as fait accompli when all's said and done.

Come on Steve and N.O.P. you know better than that... the virgin birth is neither fornication or rape.

Because.... you SAY so?
Because Mary's consent in the matter doesn't matter, God can do whatever because might makes right?

 

[steve_bank]

A god creates humans, god impregnates a human. Common in Greek mythology but bizarre in the Christian mythology. God creates human son to be tortured and executed, grotesque.

God created it all, he should take responsibility for it not going to plan.

In the context of modern male misogyny in business and Hollywood, we call it abuse of power. We are god's playthings.

 

[repoman]

I assume you are an atheist like myself and that you are also are something like a methodological naturalist. If that is that case why are you attaching such a level of emotional anti-attachment to the story. It is just a story.

It probably was not created with a fixed concept of being a pro rape. I would bet that it may have been rewrite of a myth of a female goddess creating life through her own power or through being a willing mate to a male goddess.

Or on the other hand it could be like when Zeus seduces, tricks or straight out rapes female mortals.

I wonder if this has to do with patrilineal power combined with the anxiety about "mother's baby, father's maybe".



Starts at 16 minutes

 

[steve_bank]

Because it is a root cause of centuries of conflict and abuse by the religion based on the story.

On reflection it is an ugly story. The Abrahamic god was an ugly god, not a god promoting love.

And please spare me the philosophical mumbo jumbo.

 

[Tharmas]

On the virginity of the Virgin Mary and Johanna Southcott

WHATE’ER is done to her she cannot know,

And if you’ll ask her she will swear it so.

Whether ’tis good or evil none’s to blame:

No one can take the pride, no one the shame.

- William Blake (Notebook poems)


Johanna Southcott was a self-proclaimed prophetess who claimed to be pregnant by the holy spirit, but who failed to deliver, as they say.

 

[Politesse]

I don't see why you would insist on taking the "conceived of the holy spirit" part way too literally, but not the "virgin" part?

 

[steve_bank]

If JC was a bastard they would have to cover it.\\If the story uses virgin birth of a spirit, it makes sense as a representaion of being born to a life of religious spirit. Poetic license. That makes sense of the story.

 

[repoman]

I think that the worst part that even at the best case is that it usurped the power of creating life from women and (if that) men to basically a male figure of God dictating the creation of life.

Even if rape is not the interpretation of the immaculate conception, the loss of power to the female half of people is not good and has had some knock on effects.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If I were to defend God on the rape charge (assuming there weren't a slew of Me Too accusers) I think I could get him off (getting my fee, that's another story.) I would throw Mary's words back at her: "My spirit rejoices in God...the Mighty One has done great things for me..." (Lk. 1: 47, 49) I would repeat the phrase 'Mighty One' enough times that the jury would think it's another word for cock. I would slam a law book down on the prosecution's table and ask her at the top of my voice if that isn't sexy-talk and if, in fact, she hadn't played the seductress. Did she not know that God is a bigger icon than Dr. Huxtable?
Also, what was she wearing when the alleged incident took place? A robe? A thong?
In a dream trial, she'd bring a busted condom with her and I'd get the judge's OK to have God try on the condom in open court. Trust me, it wouldn't fit. So you must acquit.
In my summation, I'd tell the jury that if you troll a hundred dollar bill through an East Nazareth trailer park, you can get any number of women to claim God attacked them. C'mon. He made the Grand Canyon. He made the 15 spices that Colonel Sanders used to make Kentucky Fried Chicken. Priorities, people. Reasonable doubt (although that's potentially a deadly phrase when I've introduced scripture into evidence. Hopefully my smooth delivery steers us away from that thought.)
"We, the jury, in the case of God v. Mary, find..........."

 

[repoman]

So, maybe one aspect of the problem is that this myth came from a culture that was very patriarchal in a real sense not in a throwaway insult way as that term can be used now.

That patriarchy is fossilized in the myth itself.

So, what myth(s) carrying fossilized messages would you rather we had inherited instead?

Asherah myths?

 

[Learner]

So you're saying God has semen? Does He have DNA?

I'm saying you (plural) are confusing or over looking the ability of what a man can only do... and what God can do.

(even if you don't believe it at least get the concept of their respected natures right)

 

[Opoponax]

Meh.

It's a story about how a sky genie put himself on earth in order to walk among his creation, know what it is to be human, and personally spread his word. I haven't read the Bible in... 15-20 years, but didn't the Holy Spirit tell her this was gonna happen? I don't remember if she had a response, but I'm pretty sure she didn't say no. So calling it rape is hyperbole.

But as far as this particular god understanding what it is to be human, that's pretty silly. It's like going to see a slasher movie to learn what it's like to be murdered. And as far as spreading his message, he really should've waited until now, when almost the entire world is connected...

Oh fuck. Donald Trump is God.