Rape girls and murder their male protectors: today in unhinged masculism

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yeah, let's discuss this. Please define what you mean by patriarchy, to start, because you seem to think that we must assume this as some sort of axiom.

That's a good question. I guess offhand without putting too much thought into it, I'd have to keep a definition fairly flexible and high level such as the following...

Patriarchy - a social system whereby males dominate subsystems of control.

I don't believe such term should be used as a way to exclude other -archies or -cracies necessarily. So for example some Middle Eastern countries might be classified as theocracies or oligarchies and patriarchies.

If we use that definition then much of what has been discussed here is excluded. People seemed to be suggesting that patriarchy equals gender roles, regardless of what they are or how they are enforced by society. Your definition also has the problem of generalizing it to "males", so it may exclude a lot of power plays by men that are made to the expense of other men. Men being sent off to war, dong dangerous jobs, etc may be excluded from "patriarchy".

Masculism does not require patriarchy.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Masculism does not require patriarchy.

So how do you define "masculanism" then? Is it the male gender equivalent of "Feminism" as it sounds? Is it just another word for gender roles?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Also you have yet to explain or defend your prejudice from when you started the thread off by asking why Men's Rights Advocates don't spend more time and energy and focus against "men" (generalized), since "men" are the biggest threat to them. I ask you yet again, are the right wing pundits right to ask why BLM isn't focussed against "blacks" because "blacks" are the biggest threat of violence against them?

I still say no, because the are advocacy groups against prejudice and double standards against their gender/race, and it would make no sense for them to encourage more of the same.

 

[Toni]

Also you have yet to explain or defend your prejudice from when you started the thread off by asking why Men's Rights Advocates don't spend more time and energy and focus against "men" (generalized), since "men" are the biggest threat to them. I ask you yet again, are the right wing pundits right to ask why BLM isn't focussed against "blacks" because "blacks" are the biggest threat of violence against them?

I still say no, because the are advocacy groups against prejudice and double standards against their gender/race, and it would make no sense for them to encourage more of the same.

I think that Don's post made some very good points: Why isn't male violence towards other males talked about as a male issue? Why isn't male violence talked about explicitly, as a male issue?

I think it's a tough subject and a really important one.

Why do you see this as 'prejudice?' Why do you want to deflect to what BLM does and does not address? Why don't you want to talk about this issue?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Also you have yet to explain or defend your prejudice from when you started the thread off by asking why Men's Rights Advocates don't spend more time and energy and focus against "men" (generalized), since "men" are the biggest threat to them. I ask you yet again, are the right wing pundits right to ask why BLM isn't focussed against "blacks" because "blacks" are the biggest threat of violence against them?

I still say no, because the are advocacy groups against prejudice and double standards against their gender/race, and it would make no sense for them to encourage more of the same.

This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that comes from the conservatives and I even referenced it in the op. So, if it's fair to say, then so is talking about male on male violence.

I will add that the way society has institutionalized racism so blacks most often live in overpopulated pockets with poverty and in communities with black market jobs is an impact to how we measure black on black violence. We cannot say the same about external factors impacting measurements of man on man violence. It stands on its own. So, it is even more fair to talk about.

But you're not...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I still say no, because the are advocacy groups against prudice and double standards against their gender/race, and it would make no sense for them to encourage more of the same.

I think that Don's post made some very good points: Why isn't male violence towards other males talked about as a male issue? Why isn't male violence talked about explicitly, as a male issue?

I think it's a tough subject and a really important one.

Why do you see this as 'prejudice?' Why do you want to deflect to what BLM does and does not address? Why don't you want to talk about this issue?

Violence against men and why society excuses it more readily than violence against women is definitely an issue, but people focussed on ways in which a gender, race, etc is treated unequally or unfairly aren't going to take to "you are your problem". It both generalizes people of that group and treats them unfairly. Exactly what they set out to oppose. The BLM comparison was an analogy.

Would you smile at BLM being told black people are their big problem that they should focus on? I would hope not. For starters "black people" in general does not equate to the black people who are violent thugs in the inner city. That's called prejudice. A black mide class guy driving through a mostly white neighborhood, assaulted by police and mistreated because he is black doesn't gain anything from a conservative pundit telling him "black people are the problem". This does that change when you switch black out with "white", "women", "men",etc.

 

[Toni]

I still say no, because the are advocacy groups against prudice and double standards against their gender/race, and it would make no sense for them to encourage more of the same.

I think that Don's post made some very good points: Why isn't male violence towards other males talked about as a male issue? Why isn't male violence talked about explicitly, as a male issue?

I think it's a tough subject and a really important one.

Why do you see this as 'prejudice?' Why do you want to deflect to what BLM does and does not address? Why don't you want to talk about this issue?

Violence against men and why society excuses it more readily than violence against women is definitely an issue, but people focussed on ways in which a gender, race, etc is treated unequally or unfairly aren't going to take to "you are your problem". It both generalizes people of that group and treats them unfairly. Exactly what they set out to oppose. The BLM comparison was an analogy. Would you smile at BLM being told black people are their big problem that they should focus on? I would hope not. For starters "black people" in general does not equate to the black people who are violent thugs in the inner city. That's called prejudice. A black mide class guy driving through a mostly white neighborhood, assaulted by police and mistreated because he is black doesn't gain anything from a conservative pundit telling him "black people are the problem". This does that change when you switch black out with "white", "women", "men",etc.

But I'm not talking about BLM. I'm talking about the OP.

It seems as though talking about violence against women or against blacks or about BLM is a distraction from this important conversation.

Why don't we--or men (leaving me out of this) talk more about men's violence towards other men? Or men's violence in general?

Are men violent towards women for different reasons than they are against men?

Are men violent towards men of different racial/ethnicity for different reasons than they are against men in their own race/ethnicity?

Why or why not?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that comes from the conservatives and I even referenced it in the op. So, if it's fair to say, then so is talking about male on male violence.

"People who I dont like do this, so I should too" is not a good argument for anything.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But I'm not talking about BLM. I'm talking about the OP.

It seems as though talking about violence against women or against blacks or about BLM is a distraction from this important conversation.

It's an analogy. An attempt to get you to recognize or acknowledge a point you either don't see or refuse to acknowledge, not about black people or BLM, but about men and MRAs.

Why don't we--or men (leaving me out of this) talk more about men's violence towards other men? Or men's violence in general?

That's a good question, but not the topic Don stated. It isn't the question he asked. He asked specifically about MRA groups and declared "men" (generalized) to be the greatest threat to men.

As to your question, of why men rarely talk (or complain) about being the victims of violence at the hands of other men, it probably has a lot to do with gender roles and men being expected, by both men and women, to be tough. Same reason men often feel embarassed to be seen crying etc.

Are men violent towards women for different reasons than they are against men?

Other than sexual assault, men are far more often violent against other men than against women, though I think the motivation behind the violence is pretty much the same. It's not cool to "hit a girl" even if she engages in the same behavior makes some guys think it's ok to hit another guy.

Are men violent towards men of different racial/ethnicity for different reasons than they are against men in their own race/ethnicity?

Racism is a thing. Other than that, no. I don't think so. My experience may cloud that though, being a male visible minority myself, but in a pretty highly multicultural area.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that comes from the conservatives and I even referenced it in the op. So, if it's fair to say, then so is talking about male on male violence.

"People who I dont like do this, so I should too" is not a good argument for anything.

Then why did you make that argument?

Also, you snipped the justification for the argument.

And you still haven't addressed anything.

 

[Toni]

It's an analogy. An attempt to get you to recognize or acknowledge a point you either don't see or refuse to acknowledge, not about black people or BLM, but about men and MRAs.

I'm actually not taking any position. There's no 'point that I don't see or refuse to acknowledge' here.

I'm asking directly about men--all men, not a subset of men.

That's a good question, but not the topic Don stated. It isn't the question he asked. He asked specifically about MRA groups and declared "men" (generalized) to be the greatest threat to men.

No, it's exactly on topic. Don is bringing forth a topic: the fact, supported by any data you'd care reference, that men are more likely to be victims of violence (something I believe that you've mentioned yourself) at the hands of: men. This seems to be the elephant in the room that MRA's do not discuss. Why are men doing violence to other men? Why are men victims of violence? Why are they most often the perpetrators?

Why isn't this something that MRAs are willing to discuss.

As to your question, of why men rarely talk (or complain) about being the victims of violence at the hands of other men, it probably has a lot to do with gender roles and men being expected, by both men and women, to be tough. Same reason men often feel embarassed to be seen crying etc.

It is pretty obvious that it is very difficult to talk about. But here, we're not talking about men showing a supposed weakness by crying. We're talking about men being violent towards other men. And men being the victims of male violence.

Are men violent towards women for different reasons than they are against men?

Other than sexual assault, men are far more often violent against other men than against women, though I think the motivation behind the violence is pretty much the same. It's not cool to "hit a girl" even if she engages in the same behavior makes some guys think it's ok to hit another guy.

But what is that motivation? Are you saying that men rape women for the same reasons they might shoot or beat a man?

Are men violent towards men of different racial/ethnicity for different reasons than they are against men in their own race/ethnicity?

Racism is a thing. Other than that, no. I don't think so. My experience may cloud that though, being a male visible minority myself, but in a pretty highly multicultural area.

So, in your opinion and experience, racism sometimes motivates violence. But what motivates other violence? For instance, most people are victims of violence at the hands of people they know who are more likely to be of the same race/ethnicity as the victim. If it isn't racism, what are some other reasons? Why do men become physically violent?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There's no 'point that I don't see or refuse to acknowledge' here.

Yes there is. And you exemplify it again below.

Why isn't this something that MRAs are willing to discuss.

MRA groups tend not to speak of "men attacking men" and declare "men" as the problem or as their main point for the exact same reason BLM doesn't tend to speak of "black people attacking black people" as the problem they seek to address or their main point. Answer the question about BLM and you have the answer about MRAs. Its the point you are missing as noted above.

It is pretty obvious that it is very difficult to talk about. But here, we're not talking about men showing a supposed weakness by crying. We're talking about men being violent towards other men. And men being the victims of male violence.

Do you want to talk about violence against men, or do you want to talk about the taboo or reluctance about that topic? These are two different things.

But what is that motivation? Are you saying that men rape women for the same reasons they might shoot or beat a man?

Why did you skip over what I wrote? I specifically wrote that sexual assault is different, or at least in heterosexual men it is different. They will target women more often for that, obvously, and for very different reasons than they will shoot another man. But why do thy shoot other men? Many reasons, and not reasons exclusive or particular to the attacker or victim being male. Men often have more capacity for physical violence because they are bigger and stronger on average, and women do get more of a pass from this aggression from men (but not from women!), but only because of the increased and unequal taboo around violence by men against women.

So, in your opinion and experience, racism sometimes motivates violence.

Yes. Of course.

But what motivates other violence? For instance, most people are victims of violence at the hands of people they know who are more likely to be of the same race/ethnicity as the victim. If it isn't racism, what are some other reasons? Why do men become physically violent?

People become violent for many reasons. Usually it as at the hands of people the same race/ethnicity as themselves because that's who they deal with day to day.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that comes from the conservatives and I even referenced it in the op. So, if it's fair to say, then so is talking about male on male violence.

"People who I dont like do this, so I should too" is not a good argument for anything.

Then why did you make that argument?

I raised it as something NOT to do. I presumed you opposed those right wing pundits on that point regarding black people. You don't? I'm consistent in saying its pretty meaningless against BLM as it is against MRAs.

And you still haven't addressed anything.

You still haven't defined your terms.

 

[Toni]

Yes there is. And you exemplify it again below.



MRA groups tend not to speak of "men attacking men" and declare "men" as the problem or as their main point for the exact same reason BLM doesn't tend to speak of "black people attacking black people" as the problem they seek to address or their main point. Answer the question about BLM and you have the answer about MRAs. Its the point you are missing as noted above.

So, your argument is: they do it too?

That's not a reason.

It is pretty obvious that it is very difficult to talk about. But here, we're not talking about men showing a supposed weakness by crying. We're talking about men being violent towards other men. And men being the victims of male violence.

Do you want to talk about violence against men, or do you want to talk about the taboo or reluctance about that topic? These are two different things.

I'm not sure that these are that different. I think they are certainly interrelated.

But what is that motivation? Are you saying that men rape women for the same reasons they might shoot or beat a man?

Why did you skip over what I wrote? I specifically wrote that sexual assault is different, or at least in heterosexual men it is different.

Having stared into the eyes of someone who sexually assaulted me and on a separate occasion, tried to kill me, I would disagree that the motivations for sexual assault and other violence are different.

They will target women more often for that, obvously, and for very different reasons than they will shoot another man.

What are those reasons, in your opinion and observation?

But why do thy shoot other men? Many reasons, and not reasons exclusive or particular to the attacker or victim being male. Men often have more capacity for physical violence because they are bigger and stronger on average

Size and strength are not requisite for using firearms. Those are not reasons for shooting anyone.

and women do get more of a pass from this aggression from men (but not from women!), but only because of the increased and unequal taboo around violence by men against women.

You're still dancing around the reasons.

But what motivates other violence? For instance, most people are victims of violence at the hands of people they know who are more likely to be of the same race/ethnicity as the victim. If it isn't racism, what are some other reasons? Why do men become physically violent?

People become violent for many reasons. Usually it as at the hands of people the same race/ethnicity as themselves because that's who they deal with day to day.

Of course. But what I am trying to get at is what exactly are those reasons? Specifically, why do men become violent?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Then why did you make that argument?

I raised it as something NOT to do. I presumed you opposed those right wing pundits on that point regarding black people. You don't? I'm consistent in saying its pretty meaningless against BLM as it is against MRAs.

And you still haven't addressed anything.

You still haven't defined your terms.

The fuck I need to. You could use google or look at countless posts. Instead, I've defined patriarchy for you. Then you incorrectly challenged it. I didn't have to explain to you why but I did. I am not going through 3 rounds of defining and refining for you because you are too lazy to look things up.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So, your argument is: they do it too?

I honestly can't tell if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but no, that's not my argument. I won't bother restating it again. You can reread what I wrote above if you want.

Do you want to talk about violence against men, or do you want to talk about the taboo or reluctance about that topic? These are two different things.

I'm not sure that these are that different. I think they are certainly interrelated.

They are different. And the discussion of anything and reluctance to discuss it is always interrelated with that thing.

Having stared into the eyes of someone who sexually assaulted me and on a separate occasion, tried to kill me, I would disagree that the motivations for sexual assault and other violence are different.

You think the motivations for all violence is the same? Uh... ok then... do tell...

and women do get more of a pass from this aggression from men (but not from women!), but only because of the increased and unequal taboo around violence by men against women.

You're still dancing around the reasons.

I'm not dancing around anything. If your question is "why is there violence"..... I'm afraid I don't have the time to go through an entire year long listing of the many reasons. I'm sure you can think of a few of your own? People are violent for tons and tons of different reasons. Testosterone being increased is the big physiological difference between men and women regarding it. Anger, envy, greed, racism, hatred and hundred of other things play into the sociological reasons.

If you are actually looking for conversation, and not for trolling/accusations, why not give some of your own views too. I'm especially interested in how varied you think reasons for violence are, since you said sexual violence and other violence are motivated by the same things (?)

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The fuck I need to. You could use google or look at countless posts. Instead, I've defined patriarchy for you. Then you incorrectly challenged it. I didn't have to explain to you why but I did. I am not going through 3 rounds of defining and refining for you because you are too lazy to look things up.

The definition you gave of Patriarchy failed to apply to much of what had been discussed earlier in the thread, so that was worth pointing out. Its also YOUR definition. Its a term that has many different meaning to many different people, so asking yours makes sense. Clarifying it and pointing out what it doesn't apply to as stated makes even more sense. You trotting out a term like "masculinism" has the same issue. it could mean many different things, and does to different people. If you refuse to define it, lets not pretend you are making actual attempts to communicate then.

 

[Toni]

I honestly can't tell if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but no, that's not my argument. I won't bother restating it again. You can reread what I wrote above if you want.

I've read it a couple of times. You are using BLM as an analogy or an explanation. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm not at all interested in BLM. I'm interested in what men think about male violence and about the significance of the fact that so many of the victims of male violence are male.

I'm not sure that these are that different. I think they are certainly interrelated.

They are different. And the discussion of anything and reluctance to discuss it is always interrelated with that thing.

So, you're just reluctant to discuss this? And reluctant to talk about your reluctance?

Having stared into the eyes of someone who sexually assaulted me and on a separate occasion, tried to kill me, I would disagree that the motivations for sexual assault and other violence are different.

You think the motivations for all violence is the same? Uh... ok then... do tell...

Nope. Are you saying that you've raped women and the reasons you've raped women are different than the reasons you've been violent towards men? Or raped men?

I'm not dancing around anything. If your question is "why is there violence"..... I'm afraid I don't have the time to go through an entire year long listing of the many reasons. I'm sure you can think of a few of your own? People are violent for tons and tons of different reasons. Testosterone being increased is the big physiological difference between men and women regarding it. Anger, envy, greed, racism, hatred and hundred of other things play into the sociological reasons.

If you are actually looking for conversation, and not for trolling/accusations, why not give some of your own views too. I'm especially interested in how varied you think reasons for violence are, since you said sexual violence and other violence are motivated by the same things (?)

I'm actually asking for men's perspectives. I'm not a man and I think it would not be particularly useful for me to speculate what makes men violent or violent compared with women. I don't know the answer. I'm asking for the perspective of men about this issue.

I know that it's tough and it's complicated and there is no one thing that drives it. But I think it's an important conversation or rather, set of conversations to have.

I'm seriously not trolling but am seriously trying to understand.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Having stared into the eyes of someone who sexually assaulted me and on a separate occasion, tried to kill me, I would disagree that the motivations for sexual assault and other violence are different.

You think the motivations for all violence is the same? Uh... ok then... do tell...

Nope. Are you saying that you've raped women and the reasons you've raped women are different than the reasons you've been violent towards men? Or raped men?

I've done none of the above. I don't think I ever will. The same can be said of many many men.

But why did you write that you think the motivations aren't different if you're now saying you don't think they are the same? What's your position on this?

I'm actually asking for men's perspectives. I'm not a man and I think it would not be particularly useful for me to speculate what makes men violent or violent compared with women. I don't know the answer. I'm asking for the perspective of men about this issue.

There is no one male perspective. My best guess is that what makes men violent is the same as what makes women violent, except that men have more testosterone and are under more social pressure to "man up" and do something about their problems (whatever they see as their problems). That social pressure comes from men, women, even children engage in it.

I know that it's tough and it's complicated and there is no one thing that drives it. But I think it's an important conversation or rather, set of conversations to have.

I'm seriously not trolling but am seriously trying to understand.

I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but based on your posting history and dismissal of what I wrote regarding MRAs / BLM and people not taking to "you are your problem", I am a bit skeptical.

 

[Toni]

Nope. Are you saying that you've raped women and the reasons you've raped women are different than the reasons you've been violent towards men? Or raped men?

I've done none of the above. I don't think I ever will. The same can be said of many many men.

But why did you write that you think the motivations aren't different if you're now saying you don't think they are the same? What's your position on this?

I asked why you say they are different motivations.

I'm actually asking for men's perspectives. I'm not a man and I think it would not be particularly useful for me to speculate what makes men violent or violent compared with women. I don't know the answer. I'm asking for the perspective of men about this issue.

There is no one male perspective. My best guess is that what makes men violent is the same as what makes women violent, except that men have more testosterone and are under more social pressure to "man up" and do something about their problems (whatever they see as their problems). That social pressure comes from men, women, even children engage in it.

So, you think that women socially pressure men into raping?

I know that it's tough and it's complicated and there is no one thing that drives it. But I think it's an important conversation or rather, set of conversations to have.

I'm seriously not trolling but am seriously trying to understand.

I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but based on your posting history and dismissal of what I wrote regarding MRAs / BLM and people not taking to "you are your problem", I am a bit skeptical.

My posting history?

I am a bit skeptical of your skepticism.

Look, I know I put you on the spot a bit and that this is a touch subject or set of subjects. I apologize if I am pushing a conversation that makes you uncomfortable. I'm just honestly interested.