Rape victim ordered to pay her abuser child support

[laughing dog]

Actually Derec just says he believes the woman is lying about the abuse. Derec mentions that women lie all the time, including about rape. A jury didn't find that the woman lied, but Derec still thinks she lied. It's his schtick.

Derec thinking a woman lied about abuse does not mean he thinks "Perfectly legitimate to force a 15 year old to go down the hall to turn some tricks so you can get some more pot." It just doesn't. You can't get from A to B.

Sure. What I said is accurate. A is A.

Don't you see - you can't get to B when you are only going from staying at point A. And, you can't get from strawman A to straw man B or any other straw man.

 

[Derec]

Sure Derek. 15 year old forced into prostitution

How do you know she was forced? For the record (and because you love to misrepresent and slander my position on this) I do think minors should not be allowed to engage in sex work. But that does not mean all of them are forced to do it. Teenagers often do things of their own volition that they are legally too young to do.

eventually snaps

This is such a common excuse for female murderers of all stripes that there is even a show on one of those women's TV channels called "Snapped".

when she comes to after being raped yet again and...shoots her rapist.

That's what she says. I do not think we can even say for sure her victim knew her age. He is conveniently not alive to defend himself. Reminds me of the case of Cyntoia Brown who was originally convicted of murder, but was unfortunately released. She had a history of violence and manipulative behavior long before she pretended to be a sex worker. She robbed and murdered one of the guys who picked her up. Her sob story was the same, but it ignores her history (and future as she was violent after being detained for murder) violent and manipulative behavior. Eventually she managed to bamboozle Tennessee governor into releasing her well ahead of time she was supposed to serve for robbery and murder.

Nothing at all to see here. Perfectly legitimate to force a 15 year old to go down the hall to turn some tricks so you can get some more pot. Perfectly fine to force a 15 year old to drink to the point of passing out and then have rape her.

How do we know that actually happened the way she says it did? She has a vested interest to lie to avoid a murder conviction.
I am not even saying she is necessarily lying. Just that we should not take her word for it automatically just because she is female and of a politically correct race.

She female. She black. She guilty of..something.

Being female and black should not give one a license to kill.

At the very least of being black and female. I mean a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do.

On the contrary, you view her as automatically innocent because she is female and black.

You're right though: we did talk about the subject of trafficked teenagers killing their rapists. You were wrong before and you continue to be wrong.

You have been wrong in the case of that manipulative bitch Cyntoia Brown. You also supported other female murderers like Mary Winkler (murdered her husband in cold blood while he slept and only served 60 days) and Nikki Redmond (stalked and shot her boyfriend in the back and was acquitted). You were wrong in these cases too.

 

[Toni]

Sure Derek. 15 year old forced into prostitution

How do you know she was forced? For the record (and because you love to misrepresent and slander my position on this) I do think minors should not be allowed to engage in sex work. But that does not mean all of them are forced to do it. Teenagers often do things they are legally too young to do.

eventually snaps

This is such a common excuse for female murderers of all stripes that there is even a show on one of those women's TV channels called "Snapped".

when she comes to after being raped yet again and...shoots her rapist.

That's what she says. I do not think we can even say for sure her victim knew her age. He is conveniently not alive to defend himself. Reminds me of the case of Cyntoia Brown who was originally convicted of murder, but was unfortunately released. She had a history of violence and manipulative behavior long before she pretended to be a sex worker. She robbed and murdered one of the guys who picked her up. Her sob story was the same, but it ignores her history (and future as she was violent after being detained for murder) violent and manipulative behavior. Eventually she managed to bamboozle Tennessee governor into releasing her well ahead of time she was supposed to serve for robbery and murder.

Nothing at all to see here. Perfectly legitimate to force a 15 year old to go down the hall to turn some tricks so you can get some more pot. Perfectly fine to force a 15 year old to drink to the point of passing out and then have rape her.

How do we know that actually happened the way she says it did? She has a vested interest to lie to avoid a murder conviction.
I am not even saying she is necessarily lying. Just that we should not take her word for it automatically just because she is female and of a politically correct race.

She female. She black. She guilty of..something.

Being female and black should not give one a license to kill.

At the very least of being black and female. I mean a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do.

On the contrary, you view her as automatically innocent because she is female and black.

You're right though: we did talk about the subject of trafficked teenagers killing their rapists. You were wrong before and you continue to be wrong.

You have been wrong in the case of that manipulative bitch Cyntoia Brown. You also supported other female murderers like Mary Winkler (murdered her husband in cold blood while he slept and only served 60 days) and Nikki Redmond (stalked and shot her boyfriend in the back and was acquitted). You were wrong in these cases too.

You’re misrepresenting me and you’re misrepresenting each of these cases.

We are all reading about these cases after the fact and most often after investigations and trials and verdicts. We were not in the courtroom and did not hear the testimony of any witnesses. We only hear what is reported and I think all of us know that the media often gets some things wrong.

But I do thank you for chiming in and proving my point.

 

[Derec]

Actually Derec just says he believes the woman is lying about the abuse.

I am not even saying that. I am saying that we should not take her word for it, because she has a vested interest in lying about it because she just killed a man and claiming "abuse" is her ticket to avoid a murder conviction.

Derec mentions that women lie all the time, including about rape.

And they do. Plenty of cases. Many of whom have been supported by feminists, and in case of black false accusers by race warriors like Al "Them Greek Homos" Sharpton and Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson at the time. Remember all the clusterfuck of jumping to conclusions over Duke Lacrosse? Or the "Rape on Campus" article about a completely made up "rape"?

A jury didn't find that the woman lied, but Derec still thinks she lied. It's his schtick.

Juries are highly fallible and susceptible to emotional appeals. If you are innocent, seek a bench trial. If you are guilty, you have a better chance to bamboozle the jury.

 

[Derec]

Derec also seems unimpressed by the fact that legally, a person under 18 cannot engage in prostitution: it is considered rape of a minor.

I agree that a person under 18 should not engage in sex work. But I do not think it is necessarily rape. The criminal justice system should be just, first and foremost. If a 16 or 17 year old pretends to be 18 or 19 on an escort site and has sex for money of her own accord, it would be extremely unjust to charge her client with rape. No matter how much you want to see men who hire sex workers punished, Toni.

On the other hand, I believe any person who forces another person into sex work should in prison for a very long time.

Derec does not seem to consider being abused by a domestic partner or sex partner as just cause to respond with violence.

It is certainly no excuse for murder. Self-defense is one thing, (revenge) murder quite another. And just because a woman makes self-serving claims of domestic abuse does not mean that those claims are true. Take the case of Mary Winkler, a cold-blooded murderer whom you support. She murdered her husband in cold blood, and pretty much got away with it because she made unsubstantiated claims of abuse.

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died.

That's Nikki Redmond. However you slice it, she fired the gun from behind him and killed him. That's murder. If it was a man who followed a woman to her new lover's house and shot her in the back, you would be outraged if he was acquitted. But since it's a female murderer who got away with killing a man, you are happy with the verdict.

I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence.

No, that one was acquitted. Mary Winkler, who murdered her husband in his sleep, was convicted of manslaughter but only served 60 days.
She should have been convicted of murder one and served life without parole at the very least. We all know a man who did the same would likely get the death penalty, and you would not have supported his actions.

I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case. In another, a woman killed her abusive husband while he slept. Amazingly, the jury did not find her guilty of murder but of some form of manslaughter (I think--again, I'm not going to look up that case) and she received an extremely light sentence--which she publicly has said she thought she deserved harsher punishment.

She claimed abuse, but anybody can make self-serving claims like that. There was no corroborating evidence.
Of course you automatically believe her, but would not believe a man making similar claims about a woman he shot in her sleep (and then cut phone lines so she could not call for help in case she survived).

Derec is very silent about men who get away with murder, or murder of an intimate partner or of a prostitute. Unless the victim is a (white) male and the shooter is black.

Care to give some examples? I do not think any murderers, regardless of gender or race, should get away with it.
As a counterexample, I do not think Adnan Syed (who murdered his ex girlfriend Hae Min Lee ) should have been released and not retried. Shame on Marilyn Mosby!

 

[ZiprHead]

Actually Derec just says he believes the woman is lying about the abuse. Derec mentions that women lie all the time, including about rape. A jury didn't find that the woman lied, but Derec still thinks she lied. It's his schtick.

Derec thinking a woman lied about abuse does not mean he thinks "Perfectly legitimate to force a 15 year old to go down the hall to turn some tricks so you can get some more pot." It just doesn't. You can't get from A to B.

Sure. What I said is accurate. A is A.

Apparently Metaphor doesn't get hyperbole. Strange, considering his handle.

 

[Derec]

Coercion of a minor into prostitution is illegal and considered abuse in and of itself.

I agree with that actually.

 

[Derec]

You’re misrepresenting me and you’re misrepresenting each of these cases.

In what way have I misrepresented either you or the cases? Please be specific?
Speaking of misrepresentation - you are misrepresenting my positions.

We are all reading about these cases after the fact and most often after investigations and trials and verdicts. We were not in the courtroom and did not hear the testimony of any witnesses.

That is classic argument from authority. We can come to conclusions based on what is publicly available about these cases. We may not be in the courtrooms, but we do know a lot of the facts.
Also, you do not show such deference for juries in cases where you disagree with the outcome - like Z and Ritt being acquitted because of self-defense.

We only hear what is reported and I think all of us know that the media often gets some things wrong.

Appeal to ignorance.
You cannot assume that the jury must have been right because they must have had some facts that the news outlets must have reported on wrongly.

But I do thank you for chiming in and proving my point.

I did no such thing.

 

[Derec]

My reasoning is not faulty. You, however, seem to be engaging in one of your delightful word games where you get to decide to interpret things literally in a way that helps you make whatever point you wish to make. You can play with yourself. I'm not interested.

Your reasoning is faulty. It does not follow from what I said that I also think what you falsely ascribe to me.

 

[Toni]

Derec also seems unimpressed by the fact that legally, a person under 18 cannot engage in prostitution: it is considered rape of a minor.

I agree that a person under 18 should not engage in sex work. But I do not think it is necessarily rape. The criminal justice system should be just, first and foremost. If a 16 or 17 year old pretends to be 18 or 19 on an escort site and has sex for money of her own accord, it would be extremely unjust to charge her client with rape. No matter how much you want to see men who hire sex workers punished, Toni.

On the other hand, I believe any person who forces another person into sex work should in prison for a very long time.

Derec does not seem to consider being abused by a domestic partner or sex partner as just cause to respond with violence.

It is certainly no excuse for murder. Self-defense is one thing, (revenge) murder quite another. And just because a woman makes self-serving claims of domestic abuse does not mean that those claims are true. Take the case of Mary Winkler, a cold-blooded murderer whom you support. She murdered her husband in cold blood, and pretty much got away with it because she made unsubstantiated claims of abuse.

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died.

That's Nikki Redmond. However you slice it, she fired the gun from behind him and killed him. That's murder. If it was a man who followed a woman to her new lover's house and shot her in the back, you would be outraged if he was acquitted. But since it's a female murderer who got away with killing a man, you are happy with the verdict.

I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence.

No, that one was acquitted. Mary Winkler, who murdered her husband in his sleep, was convicted of manslaughter but only served 60 days.
She should have been convicted of murder one and served life without parole at the very least. We all know a man who did the same would likely get the death penalty, and you would not have supported his actions.

I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case. In another, a woman killed her abusive husband while he slept. Amazingly, the jury did not find her guilty of murder but of some form of manslaughter (I think--again, I'm not going to look up that case) and she received an extremely light sentence--which she publicly has said she thought she deserved harsher punishment.

She claimed abuse, but anybody can make self-serving claims like that. There was no corroborating evidence.
Of course you automatically believe her, but would not believe a man making similar claims about a woman he shot in her sleep (and then cut phone lines so she could not call for help in case she survived).

Derec is very silent about men who get away with murder, or murder of an intimate partner or of a prostitute. Unless the victim is a (white) male and the shooter is black.

Care to give some examples? I do not think any murderers, regardless of gender or race, should get away with it.
As a counterexample, I do not think Adnan Syed (who murdered his ex girlfriend Hae Min Lee ) should have been released and not retried. Shame on Marylin Mosby!

Again, neither of us heard testimony and evidence presented at those trials.

I think you are misremembering my opinion in the Mary Winkler case. I found the verdict and sentence to be extremely stunning. I would have bet good money on her conviction and a long sentence. But she was of voluntary manslaughter and given a very light sentence in her small community where her husband was well known. What I speculate is that her husband was known to be abusive to his wife in h to he community. You’d be surprised how often that is true—small town people know a lot more about their fellow townspeople than in large cities. It’s the only way that I can make sense of the verdict and sentence. Everyone knew he was a dishonest abusive creep and they felt sorry for her and the kids.

Cyntonia Brown was convicted of 3 very serious charges, sentenced, used her time to gain an education and to try to do some good. Her case received a lot of attention from some very famous people. She got lucky for once in her life and her sentence was commuted although she was given 10 years probation. Apparently a lot of people believed her. In her case, it seems that prison gave her a chance to become a better person and she made the most of it. This is a good thing. Personally, I have an extremely difficult time with the practice of charging minors as adults or of giving minors life sentences.

I think that a number of times we’ve talked about how unfair it is that sex workers are not believed when they seek help if they are victimized. That’s one of the arguments for legalization. Unfortunately I don’t believe that legalization will make the police and prosecutors more willing to apply the law fairly and protect sex workers. Women are not well protected in cases of rape or domestic violence, no matter their age or profession.

Here’s an article ( should be free) about a man who confessed to killing 93 women, with st least 50 verified.

Samuel Little, Serial Killer Who Confessed to 93 Murders, Dies at 80 (Published 2020)

At least 50 of those murders were verified by law enforcement officers, according to the F.B.I., which declared Mr. Little the “most prolific” serial killer in U.S. history.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

 

[Toni]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Manslaughter. No intention to shoot or harm him.

 

[IIDB Staff]

Long derail about intent vs result and AAVE vs Yiddish has gone “up in flames”
This topic is about rape, its victims and its perpetrators.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Manslaughter. No intention to shoot or harm him.

But it was in the course of a felony, thus becomes felony murder.

 

[Toni]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Manslaughter. No intention to shoot or harm him.

But it was in the course of a felony, thus becomes felony murder.

Really? The legal system disagreed.

 

[laughing dog]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Too bad that standard doesn't seem to apply to police.

 

[Toni]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Too bad that standard doesn't seem to apply to police.

Or home owners. Or people walking around their neighborhood with loaded weapons terrorizing teenaged boys.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Too bad that standard doesn't seem to apply to police.

Where do you have examples of the police firing warning shots?

 

[laughing dog]

One of the cases he cites above, a woman fired a gun to scare her lover but the bullet ricocheted off of a car or motor cycle or something, and struck him in the buttocks. Normally not a fatal wound. But unfortunately, that bullet also nicked the femoral artery and the man died. I believe the woman was convicted of manslaughter, which Derec finds too light a sentence. I honestly don't have the time (or interest) to go back and look up that case.

Sorry, but that's murder. If you're in a position to be firing a warning shot you're almost certainly not a position where you can legally pull the trigger.

Too bad that standard doesn't seem to apply to police.

Where do you have examples of the police firing warning shots?

Read your underlined statement and you might see how irrelevant your question is.

 

[Derec]

Again, neither of us heard testimony and evidence presented at those trials.

Obviously. But that does not mean we do not have a lot of information about these cases.
You can't just assume that the jury had access to some unknown information that made their verdict just, just because the perp happens to be a woman.

I think you are misremembering my opinion in the Mary Winkler case. I found the verdict and sentence to be extremely stunning. I would have bet good money on her conviction and a long sentence.

You may have found it stunning and surprising, but you, and others, have defended it.

But she was of voluntary manslaughter and given a very light sentence in her small community where her husband was well known. What I speculate is that her husband was known to be abusive to his wife in h to he community. You’d be surprised how often that is true—small town people know a lot more about their fellow townspeople than in large cities.

That is pure speculation. And even if there were such rumors in their community, rumors are not a good reason to let a murderer off. And given that he was not killed in claimed self-defense situation but was a cold-blooded, malicious murder. So, even if the alleged rumors of alleged abuse (two degrees of "allegeds" by the way!) were true, it does not justify her shooting him in his sleep, and then cutting the phone lines to make sure he was not able to call for help in case he survived the shooting.

It’s the only way that I can make sense of the verdict and sentence. Everyone knew he was a dishonest abusive creep and they felt sorry for her and the kids.

There is another thing that can explain her light sentence - the woman bonus. Yes, the jurors felt sorry for her and her kids, but that does not require her victim being abusive. That is my gripe with the outdated jury system - the regular people who make up the jury are too easily swayed by emotional appeals, which is why lawyers on both sides love to make them.

Cyntonia Brown was convicted of 3 very serious charges, sentenced,

And rightly so! Only, she should have served her sentence, instead of manipulating her way out of prison.

used her time to gain an education and to try to do some good.

Some good for herself, first and foremost. I believe she is very smart, but also very manipulative and could even be a sociopath.
Yes, she had had a bad life, but that does not excuse her history which was sordid even before she robbed and murdered somebody.
Cyntoia Brown Laughed About Killing Man, Threatened to Shoot Nurse After Arrest

I shot that man in the back of the head, and bitch, I'm gonna shoot you three times in the back of the head and would love to see your blood splatter on the wall.

When we were first discussing the case, there was a lengthy article about her long history of criminal and violent behavior long before she pretended to be a sex worker in order to rob people. I can't find it now.

Her case received a lot of attention from some very famous people. She got lucky for once in her life and her sentence was commuted although she was given 10 years probation.

These chickenshit politicians need to stop listening to rappers!

Apparently a lot of people believed her. In her case, it seems that prison gave her a chance to become a better person and she made the most of it. This is a good thing. Personally, I have an extremely difficult time with the practice of charging minors as adults or of giving minors life sentences.

She was not 10. She was not 12. She was 16. Almost an adult. I definitely think 16 year olds should be tried as adults when they commit serious crimes such as robbery and murder.
Many minors, even younger than 16 commit violent crimes - robberies, carjackings, even murders.
They do not get sympathy by Kim K or Rihanna. Why should this robber and cold-blooded murderer?

I think that a number of times we’ve talked about how unfair it is that sex workers are not believed when they seek help if they are victimized. That’s one of the arguments for legalization.

Indeed. Legalizing it would protect everybody involved.
I do not see how that applies to robbers/murderers like Cyntoia Brown.

Unfortunately I don’t believe that legalization will make the police and prosecutors more willing to apply the law fairly and protect sex workers. Women are not well protected in cases of rape or domestic violence, no matter their age or profession.

What prosecutors and local politicians do or not with the freed resources is not the fault of legalization as a concept.
What should be clear to any right-minded person is that there is no value to society in arresting and prosecuting people for offering or seeking consensual sexual services, which is what you prohibitionists want.

As far as you claim that "women are not well protected in cases of rape or domestic violence, no matter their age or profession", I do not think that is true. The innocent Duke Lacrosse players were arrested, booked, charged, all without much evidence of their guilt. There was a frenzy of prejudice against them by both the media (Nancy Grace being especially Disgraceful) and their own university. They were assumed to be guilty simply because they were white males and the (as it turned out false) accuser was a black female. Oh, and she was a stripper and an escort, and that wasn't held against her in the rush to convict the men in the court of public opinion. Far from her being attacked for her profession, the guys were scolded for the "sexist" act of hiring a stripper for a party.

Here’s an article ( should be free) about a man who confessed to killing 93 women, with st least 50 verified.

What is your point? Nobody here thinks he should have his sentence commuted or that any history of hardship in his childhood excuses the murders he committed.