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Red light cameras: No safety improvement

I don't remember that 'increased safety' was the stated purpose of cameras installed at traffic intersections. I thought it was to increase the punishment of evildoers.
 
I don't remember that 'increased safety' was the stated purpose of cameras installed at traffic intersections. I thought it was to increase the punishment of evildoers.

You are closer to right. It was sold to cities as a revenue machine. The problem with these things is people slamming on their brakes to keep out of the frame of the camera. Too many of these tickets were so error ridden it became very easy to beat these tickets. I know a lot of people who got these tickets in L.A. and got them summarily forgiven. The city of L.A. dropped the cameras and put in instead parking meters that even take credit cards...jacking up the revenues from parking. That appears to have worked. I ride my bike around NoHo to avoid these revenue generators and parking cops.
 
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/47/4776.asp

If anything it increased the harm although not by a statistically significant amount.

Just because they are for a supposedly good purpose doesn't make them so. Quit defending them!

A competent driver has no reason to care whether or not red light cameras exist. An incompetent driver who nevertheless decides to drive deserves no sympathy; a fine is amongst the better outcomes such a person can expect.

Either learn to drive within the law, or don't drive.
 
The study is near meaningless since it only uses a sample size of 10 intersections with cameras, several of which had very low accident rates beforehand and thus no room for the camera to lower them further. Also, their dependent variable was simple raw number of accidents which is confounded with every growing number of vehicles going through the intersections in the ever more congested and populated Orange County. Had they used a proportion accidents per vehicle it would have shifted all the results toward fewer accidents (increasing the size of reductions, creating reductions were no change was observed, and reducing the size of accident increases).

Also, as with most rule changes, the effect of a inconsistent partial implementation reveals zero about the effect of full and consistent implementation. The effects can easily be the polar opposite for partial and full implementation. This is true drug laws, gun laws, and traffic laws. IF 99% of the intersections these drivers encounter have no camera, then that will determine how they drive toward and into the 1% with cameras. If 100% or even just a majority have cameras, then that completely alter how people would drive toward and into those with cameras. For example, 99% without cameras creates the expectation of no camera and thus drivers don't notice the ones with cameras until the last second and react quickly and with panic and surprise. IF most had cameras, then drivers would approach all with the expectation of a camera, but more cautious to begin with and not be panicked or surprised when they encounter one.

This kind of thing is why I increasingly believe that no one without college level training in stats, research methods, and behavioral science should be allowed to hold public office.

As to whether safety is relevant to having the cameras, the politicians most certainly sell them to voters based on safety and not revenue. People for these policies and for the candidates that support them based on such safety assumptions. That said, avoiding accidents is not the only reason for intersection cameras. "Box blocking" is a huge problem in some intersections (when people enter the intersection even though they cannot clear it before their light turns red). It prevents cross traffic from moving when they have a green light, which increases congestion, fuel wasting, pollution, etc.. It also causes many drivers to avoid problematic intersections via residential side-streets which is generally a bad thing since they are not designed for heavy through traffic. Blocking the Box is completely avoidable and done only by selfish assholes and dangerously oblivious drivers.
 
It was sold to cities as a revenue machine.

Whatever (your source for that?). That doesny mean that that was the reason they were installed.

I cannot give you a clear source for this. It was a news story on TV more than one one channel when they put them in. There was quite a sell that these cameras would bring in revenue and also but mentioned only as also safety. They were installed in dozens of high traffic intersections all over L.A. The maintenance and service of these cameras was by contract. The maintenance on the cameras and contract payments made them turn out to be revenue losers. There also was a slight increase in rear end accidents at these intersections. Where I live there were only a few nearby and I always avoided those intersections. They missed the boat on both the safety and the revenue issue. That is why they are gone...with the possible exception of a few located on the Orange busway in the Valley. That is a dedicated bus route that runs east west through the San Fernando Valley.
 
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/47/4776.asp

If anything it increased the harm although not by a statistically significant amount.

Just because they are for a supposedly good purpose doesn't make them so. Quit defending them!

A competent driver has no reason to care whether or not red light cameras exist. An incompetent driver who nevertheless decides to drive deserves no sympathy; a fine is amongst the better outcomes such a person can expect.

Either learn to drive within the law, or don't drive.

I figured you would defend them anyway.

article said:
The report recommended further engineering improvements that have shown demonstrable benefits. In January, the city increased the duration of yellow lights at each camera intersection by 0.5 seconds in compliance with new state regulations. The number of automated tickets issued citywide plunged 61 percent overnight.

In other words, they were racking up the tickets because the yellows were too short.

Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not. The accident rate from doing this simply doesn't show up (thus it's obviously safe) yet most red light tickets go to such behavior.

Thus a competent driver does care about the cameras.
 
A competent driver has no reason to care whether or not red light cameras exist. An incompetent driver who nevertheless decides to drive deserves no sympathy; a fine is amongst the better outcomes such a person can expect.

Either learn to drive within the law, or don't drive.

I figured you would defend them anyway.

article said:
The report recommended further engineering improvements that have shown demonstrable benefits. In January, the city increased the duration of yellow lights at each camera intersection by 0.5 seconds in compliance with new state regulations. The number of automated tickets issued citywide plunged 61 percent overnight.

In other words, they were racking up the tickets because the yellows were too short.
The timing of the yellow is usually set according to the speed limit and road conditions. In the event that you believe a yellow is too short, report it. But still don't run the red light. Because running red lights is both dangerous and illegal - and shows you to be less than competent as a driver.
Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not. The accident rate from doing this simply doesn't show up (thus it's obviously safe) yet most red light tickets go to such behavior.
A competent driver doesn't break the law, (even if it is safe to do so); and doesn't do things that are unsafe (even if they are legal).



Thus a competent driver does care about the cameras.

A competent driver doesn't need to care about cameras, because he is driving within the law.

Really.

Most drivers believe that they are competent; most are wrong. One good measure of competence is whether they get tickets (competent drivers get tickets less than once every few years) and whether they admit fault when they do (competent drivers are aware when they have broken the law, and admit fault). I know you don't believe it, because to do so you would have to admit your own failings; but it's true nonetheless. If you got an 'unfair' ticket, then there is a 99% chance that the 'unfairness' is your own denial; if you regularly get tickets, NO MATTER HOW UNFAIR YOU THINK THEY ARE, then you are simply an incompetent driver.

I have been a licensed driver for three decades; For a sizable fraction of that time I drove for a living - 40+ hours a week, mostly urban driving. I have had a grand total of two tickets in those thirty years. Both for speeding; both my fault.
 
Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not.

Im not quite sure I understand. Its red light, the driver creeps over the stopline to see... what? He's not supposed to go.
 
Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not.

Im not quite sure I understand. Its red light, the driver creeps over the stopline to see... what? He's not supposed to go.

Over here we have 'Left turn on red permitted after stopping'; presumably this is the same thing (only we drive on the left). The important thing is AFTER STOPPING. You are supposed to stop at the line, and then move forward (if it is safe to do so and will not cause vehicles on the cross street to change their course or speed), and make the turn.

Loren apparently is not capable of sufficiently precise control of his vehicle to STOP at the marked line as required by law; and instead is forced by his lack of driving ability to continue moving (at low speed) across the line, in contravention of the law. This, apparently, is not his fault, because reasons.
 
Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not.

Im not quite sure I understand. Its red light, the driver creeps over the stopline to see... what? He's not supposed to go.

It is okay and legal to make a right turn on a red light if the traffic allows it. These cameras sometimes caught right turners. Just another problem with them.
 
I don't remember that 'increased safety' was the stated purpose of cameras installed at traffic intersections. I thought it was to increase the punishment of evildoers.

This was their sole justification here since "law enforcement for revenue generation" is illegal here.
 
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/47/4776.asp

If anything it increased the harm although not by a statistically significant amount.

Just because they are for a supposedly good purpose doesn't make them so. Quit defending them!

A competent driver has no reason to care whether or not red light cameras exist. An incompetent driver who nevertheless decides to drive deserves no sympathy; a fine is amongst the better outcomes such a person can expect.

Either learn to drive within the law, or don't drive.

With the exception that the intersections they were at in my city were chosen because the traffic signals were hidden and the yellows shortened.
 
A competent driver doesn't need to care about cameras, because he is driving within the law.

In our state we have 55 mph signs. We have a law that prohibits police from issuing speeding tickets under 65 mph on these roads. In practice you do not get a ticket until you are over 75.
 
A competent driver has no reason to care whether or not red light cameras exist. An incompetent driver who nevertheless decides to drive deserves no sympathy; a fine is amongst the better outcomes such a person can expect.

Either learn to drive within the law, or don't drive.

With the exception that the intersections they were at in my city were chosen because the traffic signals were hidden and the yellows shortened.

Then your city is governed by crooks or incompetents. Which is a problem, but is not a reason to get pissy about red light cameras. They are, in such a case, just being pressed into the service of a nefarious objective - but absent the cameras, the crooks and incompetents remain, so getting rid of the cameras is a distraction from, rather than a solution to, the problem.
 
With the exception that the intersections they were at in my city were chosen because the traffic signals were hidden and the yellows shortened.

Then your city is governed by crooks or incompetents. Which is a problem, but is not a reason to get pissy about red light cameras. They are, in such a case, just being pressed into the service of a nefarious objective - but absent the cameras, the crooks and incompetents remain, so getting rid of the cameras is a distraction from, rather than a solution to, the problem.

We got rid of the problem by making the city obey the law. In our land the driver is the responsible party, not the owner of the vehicle. When they were forced to identify the driver, they decided it cost too much and shut the cameras down.
 
I don't remember that 'increased safety' was the stated purpose of cameras installed at traffic intersections. I thought it was to increase the punishment of evildoers.

If it was effective at doing this wouldn't the result be less evildoing?
 
Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not.

Im not quite sure I understand. Its red light, the driver creeps over the stopline to see... what? He's not supposed to go.

In most places in the US, a driver is allowed to treat a red light as a stop sign, before a right turn. Some intersections will be marked as "No turn on red," if it is unsafe(poor visibility, multiple turn lanes, etc).

The idea that traffic cameras cause accidents because drivers stop quickly and get hit from behind, is still pretty funny. Any city where people don't brake because they expect the person in front of them to run the red light, needs some kind of enhanced enforcement to get these maniac drivers off the street.

What kind of idiot disregards a red light, but slams on the brakes when he sees a camera?
 
I figured you would defend them anyway.

article said:
The report recommended further engineering improvements that have shown demonstrable benefits. In January, the city increased the duration of yellow lights at each camera intersection by 0.5 seconds in compliance with new state regulations. The number of automated tickets issued citywide plunged 61 percent overnight.

In other words, they were racking up the tickets because the yellows were too short.
The timing of the yellow is usually set according to the speed limit and road conditions. In the event that you believe a yellow is too short, report it. But still don't run the red light. Because running red lights is both dangerous and illegal - and shows you to be less than competent as a driver.

I sure hope you have scuba gear as you certainly are deep in de nile.

If adding half a second to the yellow makes a big difference in red light running that's very clear evidence the yellow was too short. People weren't choosing to run them, they were being caught without enough time to either make it or stop.

Furthermore, you never addressed the fact that most right-on-red tickets are issued because drivers crept across the stop line pulling up to the point where they could see whether to go or not. The accident rate from doing this simply doesn't show up (thus it's obviously safe) yet most red light tickets go to such behavior.
A competent driver doesn't break the law, (even if it is safe to do so); and doesn't do things that are unsafe (even if they are legal).



Thus a competent driver does care about the cameras.

A competent driver doesn't need to care about cameras, because he is driving within the law.

Really.

You are assuming the law is 100% correct. The case of right on red is an example of where it's wrong. A cop can clearly see that the behavior is safe and won't take action, the camera racks up the tickets anyway. Nothing is done about it because it's a revenue source.

Most drivers believe that they are competent; most are wrong. One good measure of competence is whether they get tickets (competent drivers get tickets less than once every few years) and whether they admit fault when they do (competent drivers are aware when they have broken the law, and admit fault). I know you don't believe it, because to do so you would have to admit your own failings; but it's true nonetheless. If you got an 'unfair' ticket, then there is a 99% chance that the 'unfairness' is your own denial; if you regularly get tickets, NO MATTER HOW UNFAIR YOU THINK THEY ARE, then you are simply an incompetent driver.

I don't regularly get tickets. I've never gotten what I would consider an honest ticket. Cops exploit situations where the law disagrees with common sense, the light timing is too short or sometimes they simply force matters (crosswalk ticket--a "pedestrian" {cop} steps out when I'm right at the minimum stopping distance, perhaps even within it. At best I might have been able to panic-stop but that would probably have gotten me rear-ended. Continuing was safe, though, he couldn't reach my lane by the time I got there.)

I have been a licensed driver for three decades; For a sizable fraction of that time I drove for a living - 40+ hours a week, mostly urban driving. I have had a grand total of two tickets in those thirty years. Both for speeding; both my fault.

It sounds like your cops are more honest than ours.
 
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