Religion is still the biggest obstacle to progress in the U.S.

[unapologetic]

if unapologetic gets his wish and all religion dies out, that includes communism dying out.

Communism is not a religion.
It is authoritarianism. And sometimes cultish. But doesn't need to be cultish. We could kill off religion and communist countrys would not notice.

On the other hand, 'god' is the ultimate authoritarian.

 

[bilby]

if unapologetic gets his wish and all religion dies out, that includes communism dying out.

Communism is not a religion.
It is authoritarianism. And sometimes cultish. But doesn't need to be cultish. We could kill off religion and communist countrys would not notice.

On the other hand, 'god' is the ultimate authoritarian.

I would agree that communism isn't a religion; But the reason communist countries wouldn't notice if communism disappeared is that there are no communist countries.

Stalinism and Leninism were religions; Maoism too. All of the supposedly "communist countries" were, by the admission of their leaders, not at any time communist, but were (allegedly) working towards communism as an ideal end state.

The belief that communism could be attained by a sustained program of authoritarian decrees was surely a religion.

The belief that communism can be attained at all might also be a religion.

But communism isn't a religion, any more than heaven is a religion. And for the exact same reasons.

 

[Swammerdami]

The obvious difference between Trump supporters and others is religion. It dominates US politics. I think it prevents us from seriously debating the issues. If you have god in your side, you can’t be wrong and debate is cut off. We can’t have universal healthcare because god doesn’t approve. Same with taxes on billionaires.

It’s why I argue that Christianity is fundamentally an evil religion hell bent on domination and control of us and the ultimate destruction of our liberties. After all they have god on their side.

I'd say this is kind of just throwing everything out with the water, including the tub. "Evangelical Christianity" has proven to be nothing more than the uglier sides of organized religion. But all of Christianity? Come on, that is an absurd broad brush.

Thank you, Jimmy. I noticed this thread just now and browsed all the way to your #14 before finding a single sentence I could endorse.
Until #14 the posts that came closest to being reasonable were by TSwizzle -- -- of all people: "This is silly."

I see us at an inflection point in history.

Let me retract my "single sentence" exaggeration. We ARE at an inflection point, perhaps the most major inflection that humanity has encountered. Or rather TEN inflection points all converging real soon.

But Christianity does not make that List of Ten Inflections.

Christians voted about 60 - 40 for Trump. White Voters 57 - 42 for Trump. If we are going to toss Christians out, probably need to through the whites out with the water too?

60-40? 60-40? That's the statistic that has the anti-Christian panties all tied up in a knot? If you zoom out, 60-40 isn't so far from 50-50.

The Red-vs-Blue divide in USA is more closely correlated with Rural-vs-City. And in fact this whole thread reminds me of Pol "everything in the cities is corrupt" Pot (or rather its vice versa).

Life is short: I stopped reading after #14 and missed the hilarities in the next 100 posts.

 

[unapologetic]

and missed the hilarities in the next 100 50 posts.

FIFY
We are only up to #64.

 

[Elixir]

I think some harsh authoritarian type regime will be more like it.

So … no change then.

 

[Bomb#20]

if unapologetic gets his wish and all religion dies out, that includes communism dying out.

Communism is not a religion.
It is authoritarianism. And sometimes cultish. But doesn't need to be cultish. We could kill off religion and communist countrys would not notice.

On the other hand, 'god' is the ultimate authoritarian.

I would agree that communism isn't a religion; But the reason communist countries wouldn't notice if communism disappeared is that there are no communist countries.

Stalinism and Leninism were religions; Maoism too. All of the supposedly "communist countries" were, by the admission of their leaders, not at any time communist, but were (allegedly) working towards communism as an ideal end state.

The belief that communism could be attained by a sustained program of authoritarian decrees was surely a religion.

The belief that communism can be attained at all might also be a religion.

But communism isn't a religion, any more than heaven is a religion. And for the exact same reasons.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. According to OED, it's

a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
​

According to Merriam-Webster, it's

1 a: a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism
Note: This doctrine was the official ideology of the Soviet Union.
b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production
c: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably
d: communist systems collectively

2 a: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
b: a theory advocating elimination of private property​

I was talking about the political theory and doctrine, as in the OED definition and the M-W 1a and 2b definitions. You're talking about the M-W 1c definition. Definition-1c communism isn't a religion, any more than heaven is a religion, for the exact same reasons, true; but that's no reason to think the doctrine and theory of communism aren't a religion.

 

[Bomb#20]

if unapologetic gets his wish and all religion dies out, that includes communism dying out.

Communism is not a religion.
It is authoritarianism. And sometimes cultish. But doesn't need to be cultish. We could kill off religion and communist countrys would not notice.

On the other hand, 'god' is the ultimate authoritarian.

You really think if communist countries shut up about all the evidence-free Marxist drivel they currently preach and started allowing their subjects to import and publish explanations of why allowing private ownership would be a good idea, the people there wouldn't notice?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I was talking about the political theory and doctrine, as in the OED definition and the M-W 1a and 2b definitions. You're talking about the M-W 1c definition. Definition-1c communism isn't a religion, any more than heaven is a religion, for the exact same reasons, true; but that's no reason to think the doctrine and theory of communism aren't a religion.

A doctrine is simply a belief or set of beliefs. Belief or set of beliefs does not equal religion. Try again.

 

[TSwizzle]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

Whichever alternative you have in mind, you're taking for granted it isn't a religion too.

Well it depends what you mean by religion. In my opinion, the word religion can be applied to almost any structure of thought/ideology. If you say religion only applies to deist type set ups I’m fine with that. What are your thoughts on what the replacement could be. Another deist religion of sorts? I was thinking more along the lines of some form of secular horror like communism but what ever it is, I don’t think it will be pleasant.

Yeah, that's what I figured you had in mind. My point was that communism is a religion too -- if unapologetic gets his wish and all religion dies out, that includes communism dying out.

There will be disagreement about whether communism etc falls under the definition of religion or not. Can Scientology really be considered a religion?

So if all religions are off the table, it all depends on what sort of alternative remains. I'd like to think the replacement would be people all becoming rational and no longer believing without evidence -- that sounds pretty pleasant to me.

Sounds pleasant to me. But we appear to be a long way off from that. Seems like there are ever more crazy beliefs popping up e.g men can become women etc.

But you're right that it might be a secular horror instead, just not one of the religious ones like communism. For instance, it might be the Idiocracy scenario, or it might be everybody en masse no longer giving a damn about what happens to strangers and to future generations.

That is a bleak thought.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Christians voted about 60 - 40 for Trump. White Voters 57 - 42 for Trump. If we are going to toss Christians out, probably need to through the whites out with the water too?

60-40? 60-40? That's the statistic that has the anti-Christian panties all tied up in a knot? If you zoom out, 60-40 isn't so far from 50-50.

In the US, 60-40 is a blow out. It means 50 percent more people support A than B, math be funny like that. It is only 10 pts more, but generally 60-40 is considered a thorough bashing. No candidate has won 60+% in the US in the popular vote category since Nixon in '72.

The Red-vs-Blue divide in USA is more closely correlated with Rural-vs-City.

Elections are generally won in the suburbs and lost in turnout.

One thing you are not appreciating the late 90s and then the ensuing George W. Bush run for office. These evangelicals had done nothing but whine about President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. George W. Bush comes in, born again bullshit. He'll bring honor back to the White House. Had to endure 8 years of that idiot who at least didn't fuck around with women, but got a lot of people killed (domestically and abroad). Then for these exact same supporters to back Trump, especially after his "grabbing them by the pussy" thing. It just stung of being worse than hypocrisy.

Again, this is about the Evangelicals, not as much Christians in general. Plenty of Christians look at Trump and can fathom him as a politician. But the Evangelicals, we learned that the word meant that they cared a lot less about religion than they made out when they were 5 in 6 for that asshole.

 

[Bomb#20]

There will be disagreement about whether communism etc falls under the definition of religion or not. Can Scientology really be considered a religion?

Scientology sure looks like one to me. YMMV.

I was talking about the political theory and doctrine, as in the OED definition and the M-W 1a and 2b definitions. You're talking about the M-W 1c definition. Definition-1c communism isn't a religion, any more than heaven is a religion, for the exact same reasons, true; but that's no reason to think the doctrine and theory of communism aren't a religion.

A doctrine is simply a belief or set of beliefs. Belief or set of beliefs does not equal religion. Try again.

Meh. Religion is an "essentially contested concept" -- people aren't ever going to see eye-to-eye about what else it takes on top of a set of beliefs to make a religion. But it seems to me for purposes of the thread topic the relevant extra ingredient is the one SLD brought up: "He who can be made to believe in absurdities can be made to commit atrocities.". Communists pass that test with flying colors.