Religious arguments and analogies that really bother you

[Keith&Co.]

I did say it would be difficult as there has to be 'more' than just you with this loving ethic taking on all suffering.

So, if it's some difficulty for humans, and you're comparing it to a tri-Omni being...how does that compare?

WHY do you compare the two?

 

[Learner]

Any species main rival is always members of it's own species. They occupy the same niche. So all the killing and destruction makes perfect sense. What is harder to explain is all the peaceful co-existence. Yes, humanity has plenty of that. How about giving us a little credit for that?

So it makes perfect sense, there really isn't any problem and therefore it would seem 'God has it right' by this example of yours. (probably not what you really mean't)

If this is the best an omnipotent ruler can do, he's not a very good ruler. But for a bunch of naked apes trying to scrape by, I'm very impressed.

I am also amazed with what our species have accomplished and I believe God is delighted , when we get it right.

 

[bigfield]

It's a stupid comparison because humans are not in a position to prevent all suffering whereas an omnipotent god would be.

What great force is needed to be equal amongst others and loving your neihbour, mutual compassion to share? It is difficult isn't it, Im sure you agree?

Come on--you're smarter than this, so stop with the lame sophistry.

The task of ending all suffering is not even slightly difficult for an all-powerful being. The difficult faced by humans irrelevant because we are not omnipotent beings.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So it makes perfect sense, there really isn't any problem and therefore it would seem 'God has it right' by this example of yours. (probably not what you really mean't)

My example is just reality. This is what happens when nobody is in control. If somebody was in control, they we could apply standards.

If no God = good job.

If God (the exact same result) = bad job

We just expect more from an omnipoent, intelligent and omniscient entity than this. There's always the possiblity that God is an idiot. There's many variables we can play around with.

If this is the best an omnipotent ruler can do, he's not a very good ruler. But for a bunch of naked apes trying to scrape by, I'm very impressed.

I am also amazed with what our species have accomplished and I believe God is delighted , when we get it right.

You're a masochist. If I'm told what to do by such a ruler, I'd do my best not to obey, and I certainly wouldn't be delighted. When force is applied then it stops being benevolent. We all reject communism for their secret police and thought policing. But the Christian God is the same thing, only many times worse.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I am a Trekker from way back. But I began to notice that when they had certain conflicts, the only reason the drama lasted for a full hour was because they spent 40% of the episode explaining why the transporter or some other technology couldn't resolve the plot in five seconds.
And, okay, the tech has technobabble limitations. I can accept that. 'The transporter won't work on unicorns,' say. The problem comes when in another plot, they use the transporter to transport a unicorn and nobody says a fucking word about something changing in the tech. Or maybe these are different unicorns or a different form of solid rock or someone changed the polarity of the ion storm....

All in all, it's just a silly little fiction story, but you'd think they could try harder for some continuity.

The Faithful are fond of a limitless being of perfect knowledge, infinite reach and unending resources. And for every story where they ascribe all goodness to God's direct actions, they spend 40% of their time explaining why He stays his hand.

Self-Mutation used to brag that God sent him a miracle tow truck to save him from having to walk through a bad neighborhood. But he also maintained that God won't save the starving children in Africa because He stopped performing miracles after we crucified the Christ.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

9 million kids dying every year for millennia. If this is, according to you/atheists a world without God, then what does it make us as a species? We have our talents even though negatively inclusive of destruction , warring , killing and so on. What has man been doing for millenia to intervene , not forgetting halting the situations of young girls being in situations where abortions become the norm? It seems under our own steam it really is a world of "natural selection" .

From a Christian perspective ;Jesus was the "last straw" after the multitudes of broken covenants between man and Creator and from then on God stopped intervening directly apart from going through strong believers.(I wish I was myself tbh)

Any species main rival is always members of it's own species. They occupy the same niche. So all the killing and destruction makes perfect sense. What is harder to explain is all the peaceful co-existence. Yes, humanity has plenty of that. How about giving us a little credit for that?

If this is the best an omnipotent ruler can do, he's not a very good ruler. But for a bunch of naked apes trying to scrape by, I'm very impressed.

I'm glad you mentioned that because I certainly do my part. Some would have me believe that my actions are attributable to the magic spaceman so they give the spaceman a nod, and blame me for what the spaceman should but doesn't do. That's hooey of course.

There's a weird, destructive, juvenile psychology working in Christian type religions: human are evil and spaceman good. I think that's how Syed would put it. So hooray for spaceman and booooo for human. In the end everything else is just entertaining, comforting filler for people who buy into this pablum.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I am a Trekker from way back. But I began to notice that when they had certain conflicts, the only reason the drama lasted for a full hour was because they spent 40% of the episode explaining why the transporter or some other technology couldn't resolve the plot in five seconds.
And, okay, the tech has technobabble limitations. I can accept that. 'The transporter won't work on unicorns,' say. The problem comes when in another plot, they use the transporter to transport a unicorn and nobody says a fucking word about something changing in the tech. Or maybe these are different unicorns or a different form of solid rock or someone changed the polarity of the ion storm....

All in all, it's just a silly little fiction story, but you'd think they could try harder for some continuity.

The Faithful are fond of a limitless being of perfect knowledge, infinite reach and unending resources. And for every story where they ascribe all goodness to God's direct actions, they spend 40% of their time explaining why He stays his hand.

Self-Mutation used to brag that God sent him a miracle tow truck to save him from having to walk through a bad neighborhood. But he also maintained that God won't save the starving children in Africa because He stopped performing miracles after we crucified the Christ.

I saw an interview with Michael Okuda, in this very serious science discussion. And the topic of the tricorder came up. "What exactly does the tricorder do?" "It does whatever it needs to do to move the plot forward". That cracked me up. I love Star Trek, but it's only impressive on the accuracy when compared to what else is out there. That's not saying much

 

[Learner]

So, if it's some difficulty for humans, and you're comparing it to a tri-Omni being...how does that compare?

WHY do you compare the two?

Comparing the implications of uncaring and evil and doing nothing from the two suggested scenarios.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, if it's some difficulty for humans, and you're comparing it to a tri-Omni being...how does that compare?

WHY do you compare the two?

Comparing the implications of uncaring and evil and doing nothing from the two suggested scenarios.

What two suggested scenarios?
GOD allows millions to die.
GOD even kills by his own hand.
Why would GOD be upset about abortion when he's got so much blood on his hands?
Then you bring up humans and compassion and neighbors.

seems a non sequitur.

 

[Learner]

Come on--you're smarter than this, so stop with the lame sophistry.

The task of ending all suffering is not even slightly difficult for an all-powerful being. The difficult faced by humans irrelevant because we are not omnipotent beings.

People believe - regardless the belief of God - there can be such a thing as a so called peace and harmony , at least in theory this is thought plausible and is promoted around the world. Nothing to do with not having or needing the powers of God to achieve it but by mans own doing (credit to man for the thought). God of the bible believed man capable with his guidance.

The task of ending all suffering according to scripture this will happen.
What if the ending all suffering now means erasing/destroying the world and everything in it? An angry evil god similar to pagan gods would have done so already because man keeps turning his back on this powerful entity, perhaps creating and destroying worlds till he was happy I should think. This is to Christians the reason for Jesus who is the negotiator because God loves his creation.

 

[Keith&Co.]

"What exactly does the tricorder do?" "It does whatever it needs to do to move the plot forward".

Exactly.
The transporter exists to solve the problem of the show's budget. Stand still, cheap special effects, new setting, no shuttle flight scenes.
But that has consequences on plots when you look close.

God is the repository of all good things, power and authority, and is perfect love. But the perfect father figure who can do all things does fuck all for faithbabble reasons.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Come on--you're smarter than this, so stop with the lame sophistry.

The task of ending all suffering is not even slightly difficult for an all-powerful being. The difficult faced by humans irrelevant because we are not omnipotent beings.

People believe - regardless the belief of God - there can be such a thing as a so called peace and harmony , at least in theory this is thought plausible and is promoted around the world. Nothing to do with not having or needing the powers of God to achieve it but by mans own doing (credit to man for the thought).

The task of ending all suffering according to scripture this will happen.
What if the ending all suffering now means erasing the world and everything in it? An angry evil god similar to pagan gods would have done so already because man keeps turning his back on this powerful entiry, I should think. This is to Christians the reason for Jesus who is the negotiator.

Nothing so comforting as Christian kool-aid to a Christian and seeing religious history through a happy lens. Someone needs to actually learn something about the history of religion and gods before making such sweeping statements.

Go Team Christian!

Too bad there are no referees in religion.

 

[Learner]

What two suggested scenarios?
GOD allows millions to die.
GOD even kills by his own hand.
Why would GOD be upset about abortion when he's got so much blood on his hands?
Then you bring up humans and compassion and neighbors.

seems a non sequitur.

Man allows millions to die.
Man kills by his own hand.
Man is not upset with abortions.

I brought up 'humans and compassion and neighbors' as this is what God through Jesus of the bible advocates. The way for humans to BEHAVE against such suffering contrary to the notion that God allows this and that to happen. He told us so and there will be consequences.( by Christianity)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Man allows millions to die.

But no one claims Man is perfect. As a defense, that's not applicable to God, though.

Man kills by his own hand..

No one claims Man is perfect. as a defense, that's not applicable to God.

Man is not upset with abortions..

Some are. But they lack the power to enforce their will. Not applicable to God.

I brought up 'humans and compassion and neighbors' as this is what God through Jesus of the bible advocates. The way for humans to BEHAVE against such suffering contrary to the notion that God allows this and that to happen. He told us so and there will be consequences.

Okay, see, as the father of three, if my kids are doing something against my rules, I stop it.
I do not tell one of the kids that he's responsible for stopping the other kids from fucking up.
I also don't watch the kid fuck up and make a note that when the kid grows up, I'll punish him once for every crime he committed throughout his childhood.

My great-grandfather, now, HE doesn't do a damned thing when my kids fuck up. And it's not because he chooses not to punish them, or discipline them, or even get their attention. It's because he no longer exists. It's a much clearer comparison. People that don't exist don't do a fucking thing to stop crimes.

So, really, your comparison has absolutely nothing to do with explaining why God stands by and does fuck-all to stop things you guys say He disapproves of.

Just like Star Trek, you have to work harder to explain God's inaction than you would if you just accepted that he doesn't fucking exist.

 

[Learner]

But no one claims Man is perfect. As a defense, that's not applicable to God, though.

Man kills by his own hand..

No one claims Man is perfect. as a defense, that's not applicable to God.

Man is not upset with abortions..

Some are. But they lack the power to enforce their will. Not applicable to God.

Of course not but he/man would be in better stance amongst his kind if he were under Gods guidance which is applicable (to believers you'd say).

Okay, see, as the father of three, if my kids are doing something against my rules, I stop it.
I do not tell one of the kids that he's responsible for stopping the other kids from fucking up.
I also don't watch the kid fuck up and make a note that when the kid grows up, I'll punish him once for every crime he committed throughout his childhood.

Well as I see it with God ,me not knowing everything, he always has children, generations upon generations coming in going out coming in again. Teaching one generation good ethics should pass on as intended hence forth commandments (evident as yourself teaching your young ones by similar example).

My great-grandfather, now, HE doesn't do a damned thing when my kids fuck up. And it's not because he chooses not to punish them, or discipline them, or even get their attention. It's because he no longer exists. It's a much clearer comparison. People that don't exist don't do a fucking thing to stop crimes.

He existed and he passed on to you certain knowledge and traditions (Do No Crimes ). An oral tradition you could say.

So, really, your comparison has absolutely nothing to do with explaining why God stands by and does fuck-all to stop things you guys say He disapproves of.

Well we're not going to agree on explanations. "He has given us the know how".

Just like Star Trek, you have to work harder to explain God's inaction than you would if you just accepted that he doesn't fucking exist.

Well I'm no longer a trekkie myself as for God you know my position.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Of course not but he/man would be in better stance amongst his kind if he were under Gods guidance which is applicable (to believers you'd say).

How could we NOT be under God's guidance, if he's real and has omnipotent power?
How could we disappoint him?

Well as I see it with God ,me not knowing everything, he always has children, generations upon generations coming in going out coming in again. Teaching one generation good ethics should pass on as intended (evident as yourself teaching by similar example).

No, not similar. I do not stand idly by and watch while two of my kids tell the third kid two completely different stories about what daddy wants.
I have the power to appear to each child and teach each one individually what my desires are.
God has the reputation of having this power, but allows all sorts of interpretation and invention and flat-out-lies told in His name.
So, no, not at all comparable to a father. Or, rather, if we fathered our kids the way your god seems to, we'd be considered absent fathers at the very least, if not abusers.

He existed and he passed on to you certain knowledge and traditions. (Do No Crimes )

Well, yes. OF course, some of what he passed on was why we shouldn't trust the mud races... He'd be less than thrilled that I have no moral qualms about marrying a member of such.

But the point is, there is a very good reason why he's not in my face at this moment, telling me what's wrong with my kids.

So, really, your comparison has absolutely nothing to do with explaining why God stands by and does fuck-all to stop things you guys say He disapproves of.

Well were not going to agree on explanations. "He has given us the know how".

I don't ask to agree, I'm taking issue with the very basis of your comparison. Your god doesn't get a pass as being unlike humans unless we can also judge him against the same standards.

 

[Kharakov]

Well I'm no longer a trekkie myself as for God you know by now my position.

That your brain's working consciousness that deals with every day life is subsumed by belief in a higher power, which (the higher power) is actually your brain's other consciousness that creates contingency plans?

Your brain selected the contingency plan "an all powerful God at battle with evil" to docilize the consciousness that deals with everyday issues (you) rather than the "self aware consciousness that knows what is going on and tries to improve the living situation for itself and other consciousnesses like it" plan, for whatever reason.

I don't know why your brain selected that plan, but it did. Perhaps this contingency plan makes you easier to control?

 

[bigfield]

Come on--you're smarter than this, so stop with the lame sophistry.

The task of ending all suffering is not even slightly difficult for an all-powerful being. The difficult faced by humans irrelevant because we are not omnipotent beings.

People believe - regardless the belief of God - there can be such a thing as a so called peace and harmony , at least in theory this is thought plausible and is promoted around the world. Nothing to do with not having or needing the powers of God to achieve it but by mans own doing (credit to man for the thought). God of the bible believed man capable with his guidance.

The task of ending all suffering according to scripture this will happen.
What if the ending all suffering now means erasing/destroying the world and everything in it? An angry evil god similar to pagan gods would have done so already because man keeps turning his back on this powerful entity, perhaps creating and destroying worlds till he was happy I should think. This is to Christians the reason for Jesus who is the negotiator because God loves his creation.

That is a classic example of an Ad Hoc Rescue.

Very often we desperately want to be right and hold on to certain beliefs, despite any evidence presented to the contrary. As a result, we begin to make up excuses as to why our belief could still be true, and is still true, despite the fact that we have no real evidence for what we are making up.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/8/Ad-Hoc-Rescue

What if the ending all suffering now means erasing/destroying the world and everything in it?

The problem you face when improvising arguments on the run is that you end up with logical contradictions. A god that is unable to end all suffering without destroying the Earth cannot be omnipotent, because an omnipotent god would not have that problem, by virtue of being all-powerful.

The Problem of Evil has been around for longer than Christianity. Every Christian apologist to ever opine on the subject has failed to offer anything but shitty sophistry in response, trying the defend a belief that is internally inconsistent.

 

[Learner]

That is a classic example of an Ad Hoc Rescue.

Thats the bible how ever way you phrase it.

Very often we desperately want to be right and hold on to certain beliefs, despite any evidence presented to the contrary. As a result, we begin to make up excuses as to why our belief could still be true, and is still true, despite the fact that we have no real evidence for what we are making up.

The logical fallacy here is you have confused a believer with one that sounds unsure of what he believes as you put it; "desperately wants to hold on to the belief and be right" whilst making excuses.

The problem you face when improvising arguments on the run is that you end up with logical contradictions. A god that is unable to end all suffering without destroying the Earth cannot be omnipotent, because an omnipotent god would not have that problem, by virtue of being all-powerful.

Only my suggested "what if" theory maybe wrong but thats to be expected in instant discussions. At least its not God of the bible thats in contradiction here.

The Problem of Evil has been around for longer than Christianity. Every Christian apologist to ever opine on the subject has failed to offer anything but shitty sophistry in response, trying the defend a belief that is internally inconsistent.

The problem with the "problem of evil" is; They have made such a biiiiiiiig useless philosophy about it and unecessary expanded beyond the mental vocabulary of sane beings to be seriously interesting. No wonder everyones confused. I say its easier to just say evil is simply an extreme end of selfish and self-gratification in intelligent beings.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What if the ending all suffering now means erasing/destroying the world and everything in it? An angry evil god similar to pagan gods would have done so already because man keeps turning his back on this powerful entity, perhaps creating and destroying worlds till he was happy I should think. This is to Christians the reason for Jesus who is the negotiator because God loves his creation.

This would be the God that destroyed the entire world with the Global Flood, right? Every man, woman, child, infant, fetus, blastocyst, except 8, for unspecified 'wickedness?' And two pair of every creature, except for the ones that were appropriate for blood sacrifices. They were saved by 7 pairs. Because he loves his creation, and he savors the smell of his creation being burnt on the altar...

Anyway, you seem comfortable with your worship of an angry, evil non-pagan god, huh?