Religious Joy: A Question for Atheists

[rousseau]

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot see such magic.

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot give such love.

I feel quiet pity for those who see no endeavor that is worthy of praise.

I feel quiet pity for those who have nobody for whom to give thanks.

I feel pity for them that need God to feel the joy I feel from existing alongside my neighbors.

Sounds reasonable, but doesn't this assume that your perspective is in some way superior to theirs? If someone can't see the magic you're seeing, but is seeing their own magic, and are living a fulfilling life, why pity? There may also be more to the magic they're experiencing that you're not privy to.

This hits on an important point: if we're trying to fix others this starts from the standpoint that there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. If someone is living a fulfilling life that includes religion, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Isn't pressuring them to conform to a more rational mindset mainly agenda-driven, under those circumstances?

For many of the members here it seems to come from a place of condescension: assuming the religious are too ignorant to know what they want.

 

[Angry Floof]

"Religious joy" is human joy, which can be had without religion and without losing anything, and even potentially gaining something without the step of artificially smashing human experience to fit into the ideological identity mold.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I feel pity for them that need God

So do I.

It is a mental defect.

Regards
DL

 

[Jarhyn]

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot see such magic.

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot give such love.

I feel quiet pity for those who see no endeavor that is worthy of praise.

I feel quiet pity for those who have nobody for whom to give thanks.

I feel pity for them that need God to feel the joy I feel from existing alongside my neighbors.

Sounds reasonable, but doesn't this assume that your perspective is in some way superior to theirs? If someone can't see the magic you're seeing, but is seeing their own magic, and are living a fulfilling life, why pity? There may also be more to the magic they're experiencing that you're not privy to.

This hits on an important point: if we're trying to fix others this starts from the standpoint that there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. If someone is living a fulfilling life that includes religion, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Isn't pressuring them to conform to a more rational mindset mainly agenda-driven, under those circumstances?

For many of the members here it seems to come from a place of condescension: assuming the religious are too ignorant to know what they want.

Yes. It assumes my perspective is superior. I held the previous perspective, I held my current perspective. I compared the two, and I walked away with the current rather than the previous.

According to the criterion of my selection it is superior, according to my principles.

The pity I feel is that for those around them, all of these streams of love and thanks are misdirected.

My pity is the same pity I feel for someone who "wants to get better at chess" and does not study opening book, nor even read the rules.

Religious people wish to be GOOD people. You are not being as good a person as you may wish if instead of thanking people who do work, you spend your time thanking the void

 

[rousseau]

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot see such magic.

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot give such love.

I feel quiet pity for those who see no endeavor that is worthy of praise.

I feel quiet pity for those who have nobody for whom to give thanks.

I feel pity for them that need God to feel the joy I feel from existing alongside my neighbors.

Sounds reasonable, but doesn't this assume that your perspective is in some way superior to theirs? If someone can't see the magic you're seeing, but is seeing their own magic, and are living a fulfilling life, why pity? There may also be more to the magic they're experiencing that you're not privy to.

This hits on an important point: if we're trying to fix others this starts from the standpoint that there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. If someone is living a fulfilling life that includes religion, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Isn't pressuring them to conform to a more rational mindset mainly agenda-driven, under those circumstances?

For many of the members here it seems to come from a place of condescension: assuming the religious are too ignorant to know what they want.

Yes. It assumes my perspective is superior. I held the previous perspective, I held my current perspective. I compared the two, and I walked away with the current rather than the previous.

According to the criterion of my selection it is superior, according to my principles.

The pity I feel is that for those around them, all of these streams of love and thanks are misdirected.

My pity is the same pity I feel for someone who "wants to get better at chess" and does not study opening book, nor even read the rules.

Religious people wish to be GOOD people. You are not being as good a person as you may wish if instead of thanking people who do work, you spend your time thanking the void

It is superior to you, not to them, so you're projecting your own perspective on what are their needs. There is no need to pity someone who, in their own mind, has no problem, which is largely what I'm driving at with this thread.

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

 

[Politesse]

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot see such magic.

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot give such love.

I feel quiet pity for those who see no endeavor that is worthy of praise.

I feel quiet pity for those who have nobody for whom to give thanks.

I feel pity for them that need God to feel the joy I feel from existing alongside my neighbors.

Sounds reasonable, but doesn't this assume that your perspective is in some way superior to theirs? If someone can't see the magic you're seeing, but is seeing their own magic, and are living a fulfilling life, why pity? There may also be more to the magic they're experiencing that you're not privy to.

This hits on an important point: if we're trying to fix others this starts from the standpoint that there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. If someone is living a fulfilling life that includes religion, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Isn't pressuring them to conform to a more rational mindset mainly agenda-driven, under those circumstances?

For many of the members here it seems to come from a place of condescension: assuming the religious are too ignorant to know what they want.

Yes. It assumes my perspective is superior. I held the previous perspective, I held my current perspective. I compared the two, and I walked away with the current rather than the previous.

According to the criterion of my selection it is superior, according to my principles.

The pity I feel is that for those around them, all of these streams of love and thanks are misdirected.

My pity is the same pity I feel for someone who "wants to get better at chess" and does not study opening book, nor even read the rules.

Religious people wish to be GOOD people. You are not being as good a person as you may wish if instead of thanking people who do work, you spend your time thanking the void

It is superior to you, not to them, so you're projecting your own perspective on what are their needs. There is no need to pity someone who, in their own mind, has no problem, which is largely what I'm driving at with this thread.

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

Echoes? It is very the same perspective. Atheism demands the death of all faiths, not just Christianity. Modernity alone must stand victorious over the nations. "Salvation" for all. There's no exemption for indigenous religions.

 

[abaddon]

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

Yeah there's often a heavy dose of decrying "heretics" in it.

Many atheists grossly over-generalize. They leap from "there are mistaken beliefs in religions" to "all religion is eeeeevilllll!!!" It's too bad they won't discuss the differing perspectives rather than pretend they're the ones who have the truly objective, definitive kind of knowledge that obviates all ways of life other than a wholly secular life.

The problem is the madness of feeling too-entirely-right.

But the problem is not that people argue. Discussing ideas, and making a strong case that your ideas are better than other ideas, is very important.

 

[Politesse]

But the problem is not that people argue. Discussing ideas, and making a strong case that your ideas are better than other ideas, is very important.

Open dialogue is critically important to the survival of any civil society. That doesn't make conceited worldviews wise, even if they are a necessary part of the whole.

 

[steve_bank]

All religious people have one foot in the Looney bin.

Is Gandy included in that statement?

Regards
DL

Of course. There's a ghost living in me that is part of a giant cosmic ghost? It's creepy, dangerous, psychotic woo. If you really care about people you don't need the woo. The woo is for yourself and just gets in the way, but if I honestly think the ghosty woo is real I'm a bit looney.

Get help.

Regards
DL

As should people who go around the net starting threds proclaiming truth. Saw a thread you started on another forum, same old rhetoric and no responses. You are an obsessive proselytizer. Your source of 'religious' joy. It gives purpose to an otherwise meaningless life?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

So you are equating atheism with religion? Do you think the world would be worse or better if we all still believed in Santa and Tooth Fairies?

 

[rousseau]

One thing I'd add is that this idea that materialism is in some way an objectively pure and worthwhile perspective is a bit pernicious.

In a lot of ways I'm likely more of a materialist than many people at this forum in terms of understanding, but I went down that path because I have an intrinsic desire to know. What I've discovered at the end of the road is that many people out there very much don't want to know. Religion shields them from the world, rather than obscures them from it.

Pure materialism isn't really all it's cracked up to be, and some people may not be able to handle it at all.

 

[Politesse]

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

So you are equating atheism with religion?

Bigotry and colonial exploitation have certainly been associated with religion often over the centuries, but they do not need religion.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Bigotry and colonial exploitation have certainly been associated with religion often over the centuries, but they do not need religion.

Bigotry and colonial exploitation have certainly been helped by religious ignorance and intolerance.

 

[Jarhyn]

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot see such magic.

I feel quiet pity for those who cannot give such love.

I feel quiet pity for those who see no endeavor that is worthy of praise.

I feel quiet pity for those who have nobody for whom to give thanks.

I feel pity for them that need God to feel the joy I feel from existing alongside my neighbors.

Sounds reasonable, but doesn't this assume that your perspective is in some way superior to theirs? If someone can't see the magic you're seeing, but is seeing their own magic, and are living a fulfilling life, why pity? There may also be more to the magic they're experiencing that you're not privy to.

This hits on an important point: if we're trying to fix others this starts from the standpoint that there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. If someone is living a fulfilling life that includes religion, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Isn't pressuring them to conform to a more rational mindset mainly agenda-driven, under those circumstances?

For many of the members here it seems to come from a place of condescension: assuming the religious are too ignorant to know what they want.

Yes. It assumes my perspective is superior. I held the previous perspective, I held my current perspective. I compared the two, and I walked away with the current rather than the previous.

According to the criterion of my selection it is superior, according to my principles.

The pity I feel is that for those around them, all of these streams of love and thanks are misdirected.

My pity is the same pity I feel for someone who "wants to get better at chess" and does not study opening book, nor even read the rules.

Religious people wish to be GOOD people. You are not being as good a person as you may wish if instead of thanking people who do work, you spend your time thanking the void

It is superior to you, not to them, so you're projecting your own perspective on what are their needs. There is no need to pity someone who, in their own mind, has no problem, which is largely what I'm driving at with this thread.

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

Echoes? It is very the same perspective. Atheism demands the death of all faiths, not just Christianity. Modernity alone must stand victorious over the nations. "Salvation" for all. There's no exemption for indigenous religions.

Excepting that I'm not an atheist, I don't demand the death of faith (merely the doubt of it), and I don't want to stop telling and using old stories.

I don't want to tell people what old stories should or should not be told.

What I desire is people recognizing that these are not "facts and truth" but "old stories from which truth MAY be garnered".

My perspective is on the idea of whom it is best to show love to, and feel love from: the people around us. And for which it is right to feel love: to know that there are those among US who love unconditionally, and for whom the shape of that love is endlessly and tirelessly working to help them learn to be better people. And for whom to give praise. And so on.

It means making a point to love and praise and thank each other, first and foremost.

Because my 'god' to whom I give unconditional love is "all of my neighbors", and I can knowing I love so, know that there are neighbors among them who will love this way.

I'm not even a pure materialist. Just the other day I sent someone on a spirit quest.

You lot should all be careful what you think is implied by what I find superior.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not even a pure materialist. Just the other day I sent someone on a spirit quest.

You lot should all be careful what you think is implied by what I find superior.

I don't know who "my lot" is, but if you don't think my criticism applies to you, that's a good thing, especially if its true.

 

[rousseau]

In a lot of ways the assertion that people need to see the light of atheism echoes the same perspective that Christians had toward ~ Pagans, Africans, NA Indigenous etc.

So you are equating atheism with religion? Do you think the world would be worse or better if we all still believed in Santa and Tooth Fairies?

Again, you're invoking 'a better world' rather than addressing the perspective and experience of religious people. This is a giant can of worms, and not the topic of the thread.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm not even a pure materialist. Just the other day I sent someone on a spirit quest.

You lot should all be careful what you think is implied by what I find superior.

I don't know who "my lot" is, but if you don't think my criticism applies to you, that's a good thing, especially if its true.

I will fully accept that many take it too far what they think it means to not worship gods.

To not worship, for me, it is not to deny the possibility of there being some thing even that may wish for worship. But I will not worship any thing but my neighbors who give unconditional love, and praise to those among them whom support and grow our mutually compatible self actualization.

Sometimes, oftentimes, perhaps always, that actualization involves taking in ideas and models and stories and tropes of culture and layering them with the glue of our interest to build something unique and extraordinary.

One can look at, even participate in old stories, and not be religious about them.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Again, you're invoking 'a better world' rather than addressing the perspective and experience of religious people. This is a giant can of worms, and not the topic of the thread.

Then just answer the question from a personal perspective, which is all we're doing anyway. Answer it about yourself, your family and your closest friends and associates, your children and their friends and neighbors. If all those people including yourself still devoutly practiced santa belief and tooth fairy belief do you think you'd all be better or worse for the behavior? Leave "the world" out of it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Sometimes, oftentimes, perhaps always, that actualization involves taking in ideas and models and stories and tropes of culture and layering them with the glue of our interest to build something unique and extraordinary.

One can look at, even participate in old stories, and not be religious about them.

We can pretend and fantasize, go see movies, read novels, and it can be satisfying and fun. Being a materialist negates none of that enjoyment.

 

[rousseau]

Again, you're invoking 'a better world' rather than addressing the perspective and experience of religious people. This is a giant can of worms, and not the topic of the thread.

Then just answer the question from a personal perspective, which is all we're doing anyway. Answer it about yourself, your family and your closest friends and associates, your children and their friends and neighbors. If all those people including yourself still devoutly practiced santa belief and tooth fairy belief do you think you'd all be better or worse for the behavior? Leave "the world" out of it.

Again, not the topic of the thread. If you want to start a new discussion about how atheism and lack of religion makes the world a better place I'd be interested in participating, but that's not what we're discussing here (and this may be a much bigger issue than you realize).

This thread is about validating the experience of the religious, granting them personhood without expectation. Do you have thoughts on that?