• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Remember guys, it's not about racism

How about we start acknowledging that the majority of the recipients of food stamps are white?

And children.
Indeed. Which makes the accusations of racism seem particularly groundless.

It occurs to me that many who see racism in the quote in the OP are instinctively racist themselves, although with enough awareness to realise that these feelings are wrong. Otherwise there seems little reason to form the analogy between animals and certain races on welfare, rather than taking the surface meaning of simply an analogy between animals and everyone on welfare.
Except: query random people about their image of someone on food stamps and you are very likely to hear anything except white or child.

Doubly true if your random person is Republican.
 
How about we start acknowledging that the majority of the recipients of food stamps are white?

And children.
Indeed. Which makes the accusations of racism seem particularly groundless.

It occurs to me that many who see racism in the quote in the OP are instinctively racist themselves, although with enough awareness to realise that these feelings are wrong. Otherwise there seems little reason to form the analogy between animals and certain races on welfare, rather than taking the surface meaning of simply an analogy between animals and everyone on welfare.

I noticed this too. The OP title and article seems to be jumping to the conclusion that welfare kings/queens = black & brown people, even though its not obvious at all from the context. Isn't stereotyping minorities in such a negative way considered racist? There are tons of flat out racist jokes with punchlines relating to blacks/hispanics being on welfare, working as janitors, etc. Is this really any different?
 
While they pull a lot of racist crap this isn't an example of it. It's not even about animals, but about dependence on handouts.
 
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/07/14/3680185/food-stamp-oklahoma-gop/

oklahoma-gop.jpg


NOW thus endeth today's lesson.

So it is your position that those who receive foodstamps are minorities, so ending foodstamps is code for being anti-minority?

Isn't there a racial connotation to you saying that foodstamp receivers are minorities?
 
While they pull a lot of racist crap this isn't an example of it. It's not even about animals, but about dependence on handouts.

I disagree: it is an extremely cynical play to the racism of the party and the perception that welfare and food stamp recipients are minority welfare queens and drug a users.

It is based on the widespread misperception about who receives SNAP as well as how long most recipients are on the program. Noticeably absent is any discussion or even recognition of the extent to which Big Business suckles on the public teat.
 
While they pull a lot of racist crap this isn't an example of it. It's not even about animals, but about dependence on handouts.

I disagree: it is an extremely cynical play to the racism of the party and the perception that welfare and food stamp recipients are minority welfare queens and drug a users.

It is based on the widespread misperception about who receives SNAP as well as how long most recipients are on the program. Noticeably absent is any discussion or even recognition of the extent to which Big Business suckles on the public teat.
Again you make an excellent point as to why the quote isn't racist. Just imagine replacing the welfare part of it with talk about business subsidies. The analogy is just as apt in this case as in the original one - And it isn't at all prejudiced against anyone in this latter case. Making this point (or the original one) is suggesting that all people are likely to behave like other animals in this regard.
 
While they pull a lot of racist crap this isn't an example of it. It's not even about animals, but about dependence on handouts.

I disagree: it is an extremely cynical play to the racism of the party and the perception that welfare and food stamp recipients are minority welfare queens and drug a users.

It is based on the widespread misperception about who receives SNAP as well as how long most recipients are on the program. Noticeably absent is any discussion or even recognition of the extent to which Big Business suckles on the public teat.

The policy referred to the signs is a legitimate one--don't feed the animals because feeding them leads to dependence. They are comparing this to feeding the welfare cases--pointing out that it leads to dependence. What they are missing is that not feeding them is worse--it leads to starvation.

(On the other hand, a better answer is aid that doesn't make it so hard to climb up.)
 

That supposed quote from the the National Park Service sounds...suspicious. Contains a lot of right-wing code words like "handouts". And there seems to be no source for it.

Hmmm...

Googling "national park service do not feed the animals", I find this http://www.nps.gov/maca/learn/news/do-not-feed-wildlife.htm, from the NPS website for Mammoth Cave National Park, in Kentucky.

Why is there a law that prohibits disturbing or feeding wildlife?

· Nutritionally, it is bad for the animals. Human food can make wildlife sick.

· It interferes with an animal's ability to forage for its own food. Animals can become dependent on humans.

· Wildlife fed by humans can become nuisance animals, breaking into tents, cars and homes. Rangers trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance animals.

· It makes an animal an easy target for poachers. The deer that linger near the park roads this summer may be killed by poachers in the fall. (Hunting is not allowed in the park.)

· Animals that expect to receive food from humans can become a safety hazard. Some animals carry diseases that are very harmful to humans, like Lyme disease and hanta virus.

Human food making SNAP recipients sick seems unlikely.

GOP voters might be concerned by the prospect of SNAP recipients breaking into tents, cars and homes; fortunately police officers can trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance poor people.

SNAP recipients are rarely preyed upon by poachers, even if they linger on the roads.

SNAP recipients also seem unlikely to be vectors for Lyme disease or Hanta virus, except in the paranoid delusions of GOP voters.

SNAP recipients are unlikely to have their foraging ability impaired, but the rules do say "...can become dependent [on humans]", so I guess that's half a point out of five.
 
OK, I'll bite. What does this have to do about race? Do I need to read between the lines, or are there secret racist GOP code words in the text that I'm not aware of?

Didn't you notice a Republican said it? In the post racial era of Obama's racial healing if a Republican speaks it's racism.

Though in this case I find myself wondering why ksen thinks people on food stamps = racial minorities.
 
Though in this case I find myself wondering why ksen thinks people on food stamps = racial minorities.

Hmm, I find myself wondering why you think ksen thinks people on food stamps = racial minorities.
 
OK, I'll bite. What does this have to do about race? Do I need to read between the lines, or are there secret racist GOP code words in the text that I'm not aware of?

Didn't you notice a Republican said it? In the post racial era of Obama's racial healing if a Republican speaks it's racism.

Though in this case I find myself wondering why ksen thinks people on food stamps = racial minorities.

Oh I don't know. Pretty much all my life when I have heard individuals complaining about "welfare cheats" they were referring to people who moved here from the Southside of Chicago, or complaining about "boat people", or those "damn illegals", "drunken Indians who get casino cash" and anyone who just happened to be not white. -- It may not be explicitly written, but maybe you live in a part of the country that you've never heard such talk on a routine basis. I find this hard to believe, but maybe you are just very naive to such matters.
 
I disagree: it is an extremely cynical play to the racism of the party and the perception that welfare and food stamp recipients are minority welfare queens and drug a users.

It is based on the widespread misperception about who receives SNAP as well as how long most recipients are on the program. Noticeably absent is any discussion or even recognition of the extent to which Big Business suckles on the public teat.

The policy referred to the signs is a legitimate one--don't feed the animals because feeding them leads to dependence. They are comparing this to feeding the welfare cases--pointing out that it leads to dependence. What they are missing is that not feeding them is worse--it leads to starvation.

(On the other hand, a better answer is aid that doesn't make it so hard to climb up.)

Very few recipients of SNAP or other assistance become 'dependent' on such aid. The overwhelming majority receive assistance for very short term.

An exception would be big business.

I feel pretty certain you actually know this but it doesn't suit your political bent to acknowledge it.
 
The policy referred to the signs is a legitimate one--don't feed the animals because feeding them leads to dependence. They are comparing this to feeding the welfare cases--pointing out that it leads to dependence. What they are missing is that not feeding them is worse--it leads to starvation.

(On the other hand, a better answer is aid that doesn't make it so hard to climb up.)

Very few recipients of SNAP or other assistance become 'dependent' on such aid. The overwhelming majority receive assistance for very short term.

An exception would be big business.

I feel pretty certain you actually know this but it doesn't suit your political bent to acknowledge it.

Simply looking at continuous time spent on welfare doesn't address the question. Most current recipients were already on it previously 1 or more times and after they leave it this time, most will return to it quickly. About half of current recipients have been on-off welfare previously for a total of over 60 months.
60 percent of people on it now who leave it wind up returning to it within 2 years.

Also, the people who are most likely to show dependency are precisely those predicted to become dependent by basic theories of learning. They are the people who either started on welfare before ever learning the habit of working (it must be learned), or people that have not worked recently and thus unlearned the habit.

Yes, there are many people that do come and go from welfare rolls quickly before they develop a learned dependency, and they are less likely to return because they strive to avoid the behavior that lead to returning to it. Again, that is just what learned dependency theory predicts for all animals, humans included. However, in addition to learned work habits, part of what motivates these people to get off of it quickly is a sense of shame to be on it in the first place. Another factor is the rather minimal amount of support they get on it that is insufficient for a decent quality of life.

This means that levels of dependency would increase if non-contingent stipends were increased, if the cultural sense of shame was decreased. It also means that dependency and future return the roles can be decreased by pushing those on it to return to work as rapidly as possible before the unlearn work habits, and setting higher limits on benefits given to young people with minimal work experience, reducing benefits to those that return too quickly, etc.. IOW, a combination of rules that limit the number of people that either never worked, or worked only briefly before starting or returning to the welfare roles, and also strict requirements of evidence that one is seeking employment and/or getting training, plus required public service activities for anyone on it for extended periods in order to rebuild and maintain work habits.

Also, there is clear evidence of trans-generational learned dependency that is beyond actual effects of real need. The longer one's parents are on it, the more likely the kids wind up on it, independent of actual SES factors that would contribute to such a correlation. Again, the most basic and established facts of human learning and socialization predict this would be the case.

Bottom line is that the easier it is to get, stay, and return to welfare and the higher the level of the stipends, the less hard some people will strive to get off and stay off of it. Every valid behavioral theory and piece of empirical data support this. Welfare is not a fun grand 'ol time. But finding work, working, and maintaining a job are not fun either, so anything that makes welfare more appealing or just less unappealing in relative terms will reduce people's efforts to find and maintain work and thus stay off the welfare roles.
 
That supposed quote from the the National Park Service sounds...suspicious. Contains a lot of right-wing code words like "handouts". And there seems to be no source for it.

Hmmm...

Googling "national park service do not feed the animals", I find this http://www.nps.gov/maca/learn/news/do-not-feed-wildlife.htm, from the NPS website for Mammoth Cave National Park, in Kentucky.

Why is there a law that prohibits disturbing or feeding wildlife?

· Nutritionally, it is bad for the animals. Human food can make wildlife sick.

· It interferes with an animal's ability to forage for its own food. Animals can become dependent on humans.

· Wildlife fed by humans can become nuisance animals, breaking into tents, cars and homes. Rangers trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance animals.

· It makes an animal an easy target for poachers. The deer that linger near the park roads this summer may be killed by poachers in the fall. (Hunting is not allowed in the park.)

· Animals that expect to receive food from humans can become a safety hazard. Some animals carry diseases that are very harmful to humans, like Lyme disease and hanta virus.

Human food making SNAP recipients sick seems unlikely.

GOP voters might be concerned by the prospect of SNAP recipients breaking into tents, cars and homes; fortunately police officers can trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance poor people.

SNAP recipients are rarely preyed upon by poachers, even if they linger on the roads.

SNAP recipients also seem unlikely to be vectors for Lyme disease or Hanta virus, except in the paranoid delusions of GOP voters.

SNAP recipients are unlikely to have their foraging ability impaired, but the rules do say "...can become dependent [on humans]", so I guess that's half a point out of five.

Nice job of missing the point--you addressed everything except the reason behind it: Dependency.
 
While they pull a lot of racist crap this isn't an example of it. It's not even about animals, but about dependence on handouts.
Dependence or reliance?

There is no reliable difference between the use of those words. Many definitions of each simply use the other as the definition, and many sources that say they are synonymous.

So, those words aside, what exactly are two different concepts you are trying to get at? Is it the notion of being physically requiring something without possible actions that would allow survival without it, versus psychological "dependence" meaning a learned a habit of using it even though one could act differently and survive without it?

If that is the distinction, then welfare is used for both reasons, but is only a cause of the latter not the former. Except for people with real and actual disabilities that prevent working, few people who actually make reasonable efforts to work still require welfare for extended periods. Thus, those that truly need it tend to get off quickly and not return to it. The longer people are on it or the more they return to it, the more likely it is they they aren't just using it out of true necessity but out of a learned dependence.
 
Googling "national park service do not feed the animals", I find this http://www.nps.gov/maca/learn/news/do-not-feed-wildlife.htm, from the NPS website for Mammoth Cave National Park, in Kentucky.

Why is there a law that prohibits disturbing or feeding wildlife?

· Nutritionally, it is bad for the animals. Human food can make wildlife sick.

· It interferes with an animal's ability to forage for its own food. Animals can become dependent on humans.

· Wildlife fed by humans can become nuisance animals, breaking into tents, cars and homes. Rangers trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance animals.

· It makes an animal an easy target for poachers. The deer that linger near the park roads this summer may be killed by poachers in the fall. (Hunting is not allowed in the park.)

· Animals that expect to receive food from humans can become a safety hazard. Some animals carry diseases that are very harmful to humans, like Lyme disease and hanta virus.

Human food making SNAP recipients sick seems unlikely.

GOP voters might be concerned by the prospect of SNAP recipients breaking into tents, cars and homes; fortunately police officers can trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance poor people.

SNAP recipients are rarely preyed upon by poachers, even if they linger on the roads.

SNAP recipients also seem unlikely to be vectors for Lyme disease or Hanta virus, except in the paranoid delusions of GOP voters.

SNAP recipients are unlikely to have their foraging ability impaired, but the rules do say "...can become dependent [on humans]", so I guess that's half a point out of five.

Nice job of missing the point--you addressed everything except the reason behind it: Dependency.

Don't blame me - blame the National Parks Service.

The OP propaganda piece made a claim about the NPS's reasons for asking people not to feed the animals.

The NPS themselves give five different reasons, a half of one of which could, in poor light, if you squint a bit, be construed as similar to the claimed reason in the OP snippet.

The claim is dubious; the conclusion based on that claim is even more so. Propaganda is like that - to be effective it needs to contain faint traces of reality.
 
Googling "national park service do not feed the animals", I find this http://www.nps.gov/maca/learn/news/do-not-feed-wildlife.htm, from the NPS website for Mammoth Cave National Park, in Kentucky.

Why is there a law that prohibits disturbing or feeding wildlife?

· Nutritionally, it is bad for the animals. Human food can make wildlife sick.

· It interferes with an animal's ability to forage for its own food. Animals can become dependent on humans.

· Wildlife fed by humans can become nuisance animals, breaking into tents, cars and homes. Rangers trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance animals.

· It makes an animal an easy target for poachers. The deer that linger near the park roads this summer may be killed by poachers in the fall. (Hunting is not allowed in the park.)

· Animals that expect to receive food from humans can become a safety hazard. Some animals carry diseases that are very harmful to humans, like Lyme disease and hanta virus.

Human food making SNAP recipients sick seems unlikely.

GOP voters might be concerned by the prospect of SNAP recipients breaking into tents, cars and homes; fortunately police officers can trap, move and sometimes kill nuisance poor people.

SNAP recipients are rarely preyed upon by poachers, even if they linger on the roads.

SNAP recipients also seem unlikely to be vectors for Lyme disease or Hanta virus, except in the paranoid delusions of GOP voters.

SNAP recipients are unlikely to have their foraging ability impaired, but the rules do say "...can become dependent [on humans]", so I guess that's half a point out of five.

Nice job of missing the point--you addressed everything except the reason behind it: Dependency.

Don't blame me - blame the National Parks Service.

The OP propaganda piece made a claim about the NPS's reasons for asking people not to feed the animals.

The NPS themselves give five different reasons, a half of one of which could, in poor light, if you squint a bit, be construed as similar to the claimed reason in the OP snippet.

The claim is dubious; the conclusion based on that claim is even more so. Propaganda is like that - to be effective it needs to contain faint traces of reality.

Your post has far more characteristic of propaganda, full of red-herrings, strawmen, and harping on meaningless superficial semantic issues to detract from the underlying conceptual point.

The fact that there are additional separate reasons not to feed park animals has zero relevance to any point the OP is making. The fact that it causing dependence is widely acknowledged as a sufficient reason is all that matters for their point. That single point is independent and stands on its own from the others. Also, it is not "half a point" but a whole one. Dependence on others supplying their needs inherently entails interference with their actions to work to supply their own needs. The second half entails the first. The fact that non-humans do this work via "foraging" activities is a meaningless superficial specificity relative to the deeper conceptual issue that they engage in activities to supply their own needs. In fact, humans worked via foraging until very recently and some still do (even hipsters in Portland). The fact that our work to supply our needs is no longer "foraging" has zero relevance.

The comparison in the OP is an apt analogy. The whole point of analogies is to take relationships the person understands and align it with a conceptually similar relationship you want them to understand. There are always superficial dissimilarities between the components being analogized. That is actually a good thing because it highlights that the similarity is at a deeper level involving more general relational/causal principles. Research shows that the people who fail to learn from analogies or use them properly do just what you are doing, they focus of surface features of the things being related rather than the relational principles.
 
Back
Top Bottom