Removing Confederate Monuments and Renaming Confederate-Named Military Bases

[DrZoidberg]

Treason (actual treason) or worshiping those that committed it isn't something that needs to be tolerated.

This isn't about a disagreement on policy or economics. This is about a bunch of people that started a war because they didn't like the guy who won a fair election. Over half a million died fighting that war, and when I say die, I don't mean they were killed immediately in action, but died awful deaths in the fields of battle. (One of the reasons I absolutely hate Civil War reenactments.)


​These statues honor those that committed the highest crime possible against our Constitution.

Then you don't understand how tolerance works and that different people have different options

 

[DrZoidberg]

Which part of "we don't want black people to live with a constant reminder that many consider them less than human" is oppressive?

This is thought crime.

The intent and point of their placement was also a thought crime. So leaving them up is promoting and perpetuating a thought crime.

No, it's not. Try again. You have just expressed a totalitarian opinion

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Treason (actual treason) or worshiping those that committed it isn't something that needs to be tolerated.

This isn't about a disagreement on policy or economics. This is about a bunch of people that started a war because they didn't like the guy who won a fair election. Over half a million died fighting that war, and when I say die, I don't mean they were killed immediately in action, but died awful deaths in the fields of battle. (One of the reasons I absolutely hate Civil War reenactments.)


​These statues honor those that committed the highest crime possible against our Constitution.

Then you don't understand how tolerance works and that different people have different options

Treason is rarely ever tolerated.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You know, if 50% + 1 vote of people wanted a statue of Josef Fritzl, I would still say it is a bad thing and that it should not go ahead. I guess I'm a fascist then because it fucking baffles me that I would have to explain why it would be a bad thing. Fuck your semantics, these statues are equivalent to candy striping Auschwitz and claiming it's still historically accurate.

We'll discuss Captain fucking Cook and other strawman examples once we get on the same page that it is bad idolizing the founder of the fucking Klan, thank you kindly.

So you are against democracy? That's literally what you are saying. So then why should anyone respect your opinion?

We're starting to forget how democracy works and why it is important. Hitler wasn't even a hundred years ago. Yet we forget. This world is fucked.

 

[Jokodo]

Treason (actual treason) or worshiping those that committed it isn't something that needs to be tolerated.

This isn't about a disagreement on policy or economics. This is about a bunch of people that started a war because they didn't like the guy who won a fair election. Over half a million died fighting that war, and when I say die, I don't mean they were killed immediately in action, but died awful deaths in the fields of battle. (One of the reasons I absolutely hate Civil War reenactments.)


​These statues honor those that committed the highest crime possible against our Constitution.

Then you don't understand how tolerance works and that different people have different options

I think you mean opinions.

At any rate, putting up and maintaining, in a public space and with tax money, a statue or monument with the explicit and recognised purpose of telling 13% of the population that things were better when they weren't considered fully human and defending that status quo was a good cause that sadly didn't prevail isn't an opinion, it's an act oppression by the state. It's not tolerant, its authoritarian.

What people do in their own backyards with their own dollars is whole other discussion.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You know, if 50% + 1 vote of people wanted a statue of Josef Fritzl, I would still say it is a bad thing and that it should not go ahead. I guess I'm a fascist then because it fucking baffles me that I would have to explain why it would be a bad thing. Fuck your semantics, these statues are equivalent to candy striping Auschwitz and claiming it's still historically accurate.

We'll discuss Captain fucking Cook and other strawman examples once we get on the same page that it is bad idolizing the founder of the fucking Klan, thank you kindly.

So you are against democracy? That's literally what you are saying. So then why should anyone respect your opinion?

We're starting to forget how democracy works and why it is important. Hitler wasn't even a hundred years ago. Yet we forget. This world is fucked.

You may be going a tad overboard on the hyperbole, unless I'm just missing the sarcasm.

 

[Arctish]

Are there many statues or memorials to the every day confederate poor bastard cannon fodder privates and corporals?

Not by the US.

There are at Gettysburg National Military Park.



There are all sorts of memorials dedicated to the soldiers who fought there, usually situated right where they fought. So if, for example, you wanted to honor the men of the 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment, you can find a monument to them at the place where they fought their most famous battle.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I don't mind the statue of Stonewall Jackson at the site of the Battle of Manassas (Bull Run) even though I believe he fought for a terrible cause. It's an appropriate setting. But I don't think the statue of him at the West Virginia Statehouse should be there. And I would definitely be in favor of removing the one the KKK installed in the 1920s as part of their campaign of terror and intimidation.

 

[Jokodo]

So [MENTION=65]DrZoidberg[/MENTION] ...

Assume that in the 2021 municipal elections in Denmark, some obscure right-wing party positions itself as the heir to Denmark's Nazi collaborators won in some obscure small town, and started erecting statues to Danish collaborators, to Hitler, obscure 19h century radical antisemites, maybe even to some more mainstream figures but contextualising them as forerunners to Nazism.

Assume they lose the elections in as much of a landslide in 2025 as they won it in 2021.

According to your logic, removing some of those statues would be authoritarian and intolerant, right?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Are there many statues or memorials to the every day confederate poor bastard cannon fodder privates and corporals?

Not by the US.

There are at Gettysburg National Military Park.

View attachment 28230

There are all sorts of memorials dedicated to the soldiers who fought there, usually situated right where they fought. So if, for example, you wanted to honor the men of the 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment, you can find a monument to them at the place where they fought their most famous battle.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I don't mind the statue of Stonewall Jackson at the site of the Battle of Manassas (Bull Run) even though I believe he fought for a terrible cause. It's an appropriate setting. But I don't think the statue of him at the West Virginia Statehouse should be there. And I would definitely be in favor of removing the one the KKK installed in the 1920s as part of their campaign of terror and intimidation.

Who sponsored those statues? I thought CSA monuments were installed by private CSA veteran associations.

I don't have a problem with rebel statues on battlefields, but it seems inappropriate for the USA to sponsor them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Even statues of evil are pretty. I don't like statues removed. It says something about a people if they are willing to allow statues of a histories losers to stay erect.

In Eastern Europe few communist statues were destroyed. Instead they moved them to statue parks.

Fundamentally statues are art and we all need more art in our lives. Human beings are capable of thinking on several levels. Allowing a statue to stay isn't to agree with it.

Especially USA which has so little public art

Most of the statues in question were explicitly put up as symbols of oppression. I have no problem at all with them being destroyed.

I disagree with going after statues like Washington that had slaves but weren't really oppressors. Statue parks sound like a good middle ground for those.

 

[Politesse]

You know, if 50% + 1 vote of people wanted a statue of Josef Fritzl, I would still say it is a bad thing and that it should not go ahead. I guess I'm a fascist then because it fucking baffles me that I would have to explain why it would be a bad thing. Fuck your semantics, these statues are equivalent to candy striping Auschwitz and claiming it's still historically accurate.

We'll discuss Captain fucking Cook and other strawman examples once we get on the same page that it is bad idolizing the founder of the fucking Klan, thank you kindly.

So you are against democracy? That's literally what you are saying. So then why should anyone respect your opinion?

We're starting to forget how democracy works and why it is important. Hitler wasn't even a hundred years ago. Yet we forget. This world is fucked.

So if this is about democracy, fundamentally, I assume you approve of removals that occur as a result of a democratic vote?

 

[DBT]

You know, if 50% + 1 vote of people wanted a statue of Josef Fritzl, I would still say it is a bad thing and that it should not go ahead. I guess I'm a fascist then because it fucking baffles me that I would have to explain why it would be a bad thing. Fuck your semantics, these statues are equivalent to candy striping Auschwitz and claiming it's still historically accurate.

We'll discuss Captain fucking Cook and other strawman examples once we get on the same page that it is bad idolizing the founder of the fucking Klan, thank you kindly.

So you are against democracy? That's literally what you are saying. So then why should anyone respect your opinion?

We're starting to forget how democracy works and why it is important. Hitler wasn't even a hundred years ago. Yet we forget. This world is fucked.

So if this is about democracy, fundamentally, I assume you approve of removals that occur as a result of a democratic vote?

Acceptance is sufficient for a democratic decision. Not all people are going to get to agree or approve of a decision on a contentious matter. As long as the decision is accepted....

 

[DBT]

Bullshit. You are rationalizing, not being rational.

And trying to demean people who understandably get angry from being treated unfairly by a system their whole lives is also bullshit. You might like to pretend you're spock, but it just makes you an unsympathetic ass.

This isn't an exercise in pure logic. It's too bad you can't see that.

Wrong, you are equivocating. I'm not demeaning people who are legitimately angry. I'm not demeaning people who are legitimately protesting against police brutality, slavery or past wrongs,

I am saying that legitimate protests are being hijacked by extremists , looters, riotors, those who take joy in destruction for its own sake....that it is the extremists who demean all who protest in a reasonable manner.

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

No manners, hurling insults in the security of your anonymity makes you a coward and an ignorant prick.

 

[DBT]

“They” could add plaques. “They” won’t.

"They" the duly elected representatives of the people are supposed to do what is best for society, the people. If it is democratically decided to fit plaques, then that should be done, if it is decided that they should be moved to a museum or destroyed, so be it.

Except it is against state law in many of those states to do just that. A law passed and signed into law by duly elected representatives.

Laws can be repealed. If people feel strongly about an issue they can take the issue up with their representative. How many statues are heratige listed and cannot by law be removed?

 

[DBT]

Given public debate, due dilligence and democratic process, whatever is decided to do with this statue or that monument can be done. Having input into the process of decision making, nobody should complain about the result.

There need to be exactly as much open public debate ad there was when they were erected. And rude groups thay were sidelined in the decision making Ruben should get 2 votes each.

Then change does not come through democratic process, we never learn from the mistakes of the past, just lurch from one knee jerk reaction to another.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

No manners, hurling insults in the security of your anonymity makes you a coward and an ignorant prick.

*SPROING!!!*

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Even statues of evil are pretty. I don't like statues removed. It says something about a people if they are willing to allow statues of a histories losers to stay erect.

In Eastern Europe few communist statues were destroyed. Instead they moved them to statue parks.

Fundamentally statues are art and we all need more art in our lives. Human beings are capable of thinking on several levels. Allowing a statue to stay isn't to agree with it.

Especially USA which has so little public art

Most of the statues in question were explicitly put up as symbols of oppression. I have no problem at all with them being destroyed.

I disagree with going after statues like Washington that had slaves but weren't really oppressors. Statue parks sound like a good middle ground for those.

Washington owned slaves. He also ran the Continental Army to victory for independence and stepped down from power on his own after serving 2 terms. His ledger is on the plus side.

 

[Politesse]

Even statues of evil are pretty. I don't like statues removed. It says something about a people if they are willing to allow statues of a histories losers to stay erect.

In Eastern Europe few communist statues were destroyed. Instead they moved them to statue parks.

Fundamentally statues are art and we all need more art in our lives. Human beings are capable of thinking on several levels. Allowing a statue to stay isn't to agree with it.

Especially USA which has so little public art

Most of the statues in question were explicitly put up as symbols of oppression. I have no problem at all with them being destroyed.

I disagree with going after statues like Washington that had slaves but weren't really oppressors. Statue parks sound like a good middle ground for those.

Washington owned slaves. He also ran the Continental Army to victory for independence and stepped down from power on his own after serving 2 terms. His ledger is on the plus side.

By what measure? Did we all agree, at some point, that winning wars is more laudable than liberating the enslaved? In one very important respect, he was a hero. In another very important respect, he was an utter coward to the detriment of many, forsaking his own oft-stated principles out of fear of reprisal. People don't come the two types of "hero" and "villain", and it's not your place nor the place of anyone now living to absolve Washington of his crimes. You'd feel very differently if it were your own daughter being ripped from your arms to be raped by friends of your owner. You would not be like, "Ah, fair's fair, yeah, my girl got raped to death so he could resolve a business deal, but he was a good soldier, so, square's square I guess".

 

[Arctish]

There are at Gettysburg National Military Park.

Show

View attachment 28230

There are all sorts of memorials dedicated to the soldiers who fought there, usually situated right where they fought. So if, for example, you wanted to honor the men of the 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment, you can find a monument to them at the place where they fought their most famous battle.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I don't mind the statue of Stonewall Jackson at the site of the Battle of Manassas (Bull Run) even though I believe he fought for a terrible cause. It's an appropriate setting. But I don't think the statue of him at the West Virginia Statehouse should be there. And I would definitely be in favor of removing the one the KKK installed in the 1920s as part of their campaign of terror and intimidation.

Who sponsored those statues? I thought CSA monuments were installed by private CSA veteran associations.

I don't have a problem with rebel statues on battlefields, but it seems inappropriate for the USA to sponsor them.

List of monuments of the Gettysburg Battlefield

Some were sponsored by state governments using taxpayer money, others were sponsored by private organizations through donations.

Initially the battlefield was preserved by a citizen's group called the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association. They transferred the land to the federal government in 1895.

The US government didn't put up any memorials to Confederate soldiers, but it allowed them to be placed at the battleground and maintains them.

 

[DBT]

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

No manners, hurling insults in the security of your anonymity makes you a coward and an ignorant prick.

*SPROING!!!*

I never initiate it. Nor did I this time or the other times Worldtaveller chose to engage with ad Homs. His attitude is provocative, yet if I dish it back it becomes a holier than though moment.

But you are right, I should not have responded in kind, in future I'll refer such posts to the moderators.