Removing Confederate Monuments and Renaming Confederate-Named Military Bases

[DrZoidberg]

The Unionists showing respect to Confederate generals is a sign of respect for the fallen. No matter why they died.

The Unionists tried that. You forget these statues were erected LONG AFTER THE WAR WAS OVER to show disrespect for the Union.

I know the story. I also know that the statues went up for racist KKK reasons. But the statues are still about the civil war. The story about how and when the statues went up is also a history lesson.

 

[Rhea]

Some may want them destroyed, some may want them moved to a museum, others may wish to leave them where they are, while others don't care what happens to them. You can't please everyone. Being a democracy, take a referendum...if enough people care.

Once again, the statues weren't left over from the time of the confederacy, they were erected 50-100 years later, often times out of a clear and explicit white supremacist/revisionist motivation - by people who made no secret of their preference for a world where the South won and blacks are still slaves.

Confederate statues were not only ones being targeted. Protests happened all over, Australia, Britain, etc. Here it was Captain Cook, a former prime minister and others.

People rightly feel outraged by past injustices, but the historic value and fate of monuments should not be determined through emotion or summarily destroyed in reaction.

Move them, leave them or destroy them, but do it democratically, through public debate.

NOt sure why you want to get support for Capt Cook by tying yourself to white supremacists, tho.

 

[Jokodo]

The notion that killing for the sake of keeping slavery legal isn't something to be praised for is "state ideology"?

I think it's very important to remind people that sometimes we get things wrong. Sometimes most people are wrong about stuff. I've never been a big fan of book burning.

In these times of extreme social justice warrior times, it's especially important to be careful. It's easy to get sucked in.

As far as I can tell every major corporation was supporting the Black Lives Matter movement. It has virtually no opponents. At least none with any power. That means a couple of things. The BLM movement is politically harmless and in support of the status quo. It means that extremists committing acts of extremism in the name of BLM are protected by the establishment. An analogue is the SA brownshirts harrassing Jewish shopkeepers and the police did nothing. They didn't dare to, lest it might annoy those in power. The mayor of Seattle pulling back police from Chaz is something similar. His primary function as mayor is to keep the peace. This act means something.

Don't get me wrong. I like that the anti-racists are in power now. But any movement with near total power can quickly spiral out of control. I see tearing down monuments of the old paradigm as a part of this. I see it as an attempt to erase history.

Political progress has to be something other than just replacing one oppressive regime with another. Or it's not progress. If this is the best we can do, what was the point of the civil rights movement?

I love the irony of that the person who formulated this the best was an American neo-Nazi. Kevin Alfred Strom.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

The only way to prove that guy wrong is to let the statues stay. Or any reminder of an uncomfortable past. European cities are full of statues of horrendous figures from history. We don't seem to mind them that much. They add colour. Perhaps, try it? It's not like the decendents of African slaves in America can escape getting reminded of it anyway. After all, they live in America. Most people live where they live today because somebody at some point did something horrible to somebody else. Something like a third of all Russians are direct decendents of a soldier in Djingis Khan's army. Yes, it was rape. It's just history. In all it's horrendous and gruesome detail.

Life is about more than genuflecting before socially acceptable pieces of propaganda all day. What Foucalt called the performative life, ie one's entire life is about pretending to be a good person. It's an empty life IMHO.

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

 

[DrZoidberg]

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

So just replace one oppressive power paradigm with another opressive power paradigm, and you're ok with that?

 

[Jokodo]

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

So just replace one oppressive power paradigm with another opressive power paradigm, and you're ok with that?

Which part of "we don't want black people to live with a constant reminder that many consider them less than human" is oppressive?

 

[Rhea]

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

Indeed, and there is no historical benefit to giving space to keep pulling off a scab and keeping the wound open by shoving this in the faces of the citizens in public.


***IF**** the people who want these in museums are serious, they should hurry up and get them out of the public square on their own. I’m sure you folks could donate some money to the effort. But to me it’s no different than the folks who leave nooses hanging in trees as a threat. Is that art, too? We should leave it and put a little plaque explaining what it means?

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

I had a moment of curiosity (rare before the caffeine kicks in), and looked for evidence of a statue of that great warrior, Santa Anna, in the state of Texas. No statue, but I did find some amusing reports about a rumor last December that such a statue would be erected outside the Alamo. Texas Land Commissioner George P. Bush (yes, part of the illustrious Bush family) responded to the rumor, calling it an "outright lie" and, more importantly, "flat-out racist".

Isn't that interesting? "flat-out racist". Why? Well, the rumor was apparently started by someone who lost a primary election to George, and Bush believes it's racist because his mother is from Mexico. He felt the need to go out of his way to point out that he, his wife, and his children were all born in Texas.

"flat-out racist". You'd think that Santa Anna had tried to enslave Texans.

 

[DBT]

Even statues of evil are pretty. I don't like statues removed. It says something about a people if they are willing to allow statues of a histories losers to stay erect.

In Eastern Europe few communist statues were destroyed. Instead they moved them to statue parks.

Fundamentally statues are art and we all need more art in our lives. Human beings are capable of thinking on several levels. Allowing a statue to stay isn't to agree with it.

Especially USA which has so little public art

Art and history. They could put a comprehensive plaque at the foot of the statue telling the visitor who the person was and what role they played in whatever event the statue commemorates: this was a general in the confederate army, fighting against the abolition of slavery, his war crimes were such and such......using the monument as a lesson in history, both the good and the bad.

“They” could add plaques. “They” won’t.

"They" the duly elected representatives of the people are supposed to do what is best for society, the people. If it is democratically decided to fit plaques, then that should be done, if it is decided that they should be moved to a museum or destroyed, so be it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

Put this message in huge letters at the base of every confederate monument that happens to survive the purge from public places and I'll not attempt to tear it down.

 

[Rhea]

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

Put this message in huge letters at the base of every confederate monument that happens to survive the purge from public places and I'll not attempt to tear it down.

How about we print it on a shroud that is draped over the top of the statue. We can add, at the bottom,

“This statue may be moved to a museum by private funds if desired, or if no one wants to rescue it, it will be moved to the swamp one year from this date.”​

 

[DBT]

Confederate statues were not only ones being targeted. Protests happened all over, Australia, Britain, etc. Here it was Captain Cook, a former prime minister and others.

People rightly feel outraged by past injustices, but the historic value and fate of monuments should not be determined through emotion or summarily destroyed in reaction.

Move them, leave them or destroy them, but do it democratically, through public debate.

NOt sure why you want to get support for Capt Cook by tying yourself to white supremacists, tho.

It's not about Captain Cook or the defaced bust of Abbot, this monument or that statue. I don't care about the statues, it's the principle, it's the Democratic process of decision making that matters.

 

[DBT]

Given public debate, due dilligence and democratic process, whatever is decided to do with this statue or that monument can be done. Having input into the process of decision making, nobody should complain about the result.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Bullshit. You are rationalizing, not being rational.

And trying to demean people who understandably get angry from being treated unfairly by a system their whole lives is also bullshit. You might like to pretend you're spock, but it just makes you an unsympathetic ass.

This isn't an exercise in pure logic. It's too bad you can't see that.

Wrong, you are equivocating. I'm not demeaning people who are legitimately angry. I'm not demeaning people who are legitimately protesting against police brutality, slavery or past wrongs,

I am saying that legitimate protests are being hijacked by extremists , looters, riotors, those who take joy in destruction for its own sake....that it is the extremists who demean all who protest in a reasonable manner.

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The notion that killing for the sake of keeping slavery legal isn't something to be praised for is "state ideology"?

I think it's very important to remind people that sometimes we get things wrong. Sometimes most people are wrong about stuff.

Those statues were not erected to remind the South of their stupidity, arrogance, and bigotry. They were erected to honor it.

 

[Jokodo]

Given public debate, due dilligence and democratic process, whatever is decided to do with this statue or that monument can be done. Having input into the process of decision making, nobody should complain about the result.

There need to be exactly as much open public debate ad there was when they were erected. And rude groups thay were sidelined in the decision making Ruben should get 2 votes each.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Almost all confederate monuments in the US were erected in the 1920s - 1960s. Not during the civil war but 50-100 years later. They are not "heritage", they're propaganda. Their sole purpose was and is to shout out loud "We may have lost the war against those Northerners who seem to genuinely believe that you guys are people too, but we're still masters and you're still slaves in all but name, and let's never forget that!"

So just replace one oppressive power paradigm with another opressive power paradigm, and you're ok with that?

Which part of "we don't want black people to live with a constant reminder that many consider them less than human" is oppressive?

This is thought crime. This is protecting people from feeling hurt of offended. Being offended is fine. Back when I was a militant atheist I wanted all religious symbols banned from public spaces. Not really. But I would have supported any such suggestion. Perhaps taken part in pulling them down. So I undertand the psychological mechanic. Anything we find abhorrend we want to eradicate. But it's not gone. Slavery and white supremacy is still part of our shared history. No matter how much we try to erase any traces of it.

I somehow suspect that this isn't so much a black thing as a white thing. Isn't it more likely that white people feel bad about being reminded that their ancestors where, what they would consider, evil? If that is the case then it's a good thing that the statues stay, to keep them reminded of that. Do you think I'm completely wrong?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The notion that killing for the sake of keeping slavery legal isn't something to be praised for is "state ideology"?

I think it's very important to remind people that sometimes we get things wrong. Sometimes most people are wrong about stuff.

Those statues were not erected to remind the South of their stupidity, arrogance, and bigotry. They were erected to honor it.

But we know now that they were wrong. We know now that the actions of the people who erected the statues were misguided. That's what I mean.

 

[Jokodo]

Which part of "we don't want black people to live with a constant reminder that many consider them less than human" is oppressive?

This is thought crime.

It's called common decency.

This is protecting people from feeling hurt of offended. Being offended is fine. Back when I was a militant atheist I wanted all religious symbols banned from public spaces. Not really. But I would have supported any such suggestion. Perhaps taken part in pulling them down. So I undertand the psychological mechanic. Anything we find abhorrend we want to eradicate. But it's not gone. Slavery and white supremacy is still part of our shared history. No matter how much we try to erase any traces of it.

I somehow suspect that this isn't so much a black thing as a white thing. Isn't it more likely that white people feel bad about being reminded that their ancestors where, what they would consider, evil? If that is the case then it's a good thing that the statues stay, to keep them reminded of that. Do you think I'm completely wrong?

Yes.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Flying the CSA flag off the back of your truck is at best ignorant, but more often, sleazy. It's saying, "I celebrate those who were willing to die to keep slavery on our shores. I revere those people who thought the slaves were unworthy of any human rights 'that a white man must respect'." The statuary puts a governmental and societal stamp on it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Those statues were not erected to remind the South of their stupidity, arrogance, and bigotry. They were erected to honor it.

But we know now that they were wrong. We know now that the actions of the people who erected the statues were misguided. That's what I mean.

Misguided? Some of these statues were erected in the 1950s and 1960s. The Confederate Battle Flag isn't a thing until the Civil Rights era. Many in the South haven't gotten over losing and still think god is on their side. These statues are of people that were lucky not to be hung by the Union. Honoring their betrayal of the US Constitution is absurd! Take them down, put them in a museum of failed Americans along side the likes of Aaron Burr.