Removing Confederate Monuments and Renaming Confederate-Named Military Bases

[Politesse]

I like to imagine people meeting their religious and military heroes of yore, and being taken aback by how short everyone was in the pre-industrial agricultural years.

My mental image of Jesus looks like Avner Eisenberg in Jewel of the Nile.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Are we still discussing toppling statues or are we just waving our fannies now?

Isn't it interesting how when Iraqis pulled down Sadam's statue, US conservatives cheered and celebrated it as a great sign of achievement and progress without a single conservative voice saying "That's wrong.

Did they though? I remember that and saw the odd propaganda signs you see. Few people in the images, a lot of repeated short video clips. I was never really sold that Iraqi's knocked over the statue and it was a convoluted PR piece for the W Admin for saving the Iraqis.

Regardless, Hussein is a derail as Hussein led Iraq. The confederate statues of Jefferson Davis... there is no Confederacy, there never was a Confederacy. No one ever recognized it. So we have the guy who was the President of nothing and he has a statue. At least Hussein was a dictator of a plot of land that people recognized as a plot of land he was in charge of.

You're splitting hairs. The Confederacy certainly existed. Great Britain and France recognized it as a belligerent, which enabled Confederate agents to arrange for arms.

 

[Rhea]

.
The derail has been moved to elsewhere.

 

[Lion IRC]

Bullshit. You are rationalizing, not being rational.

And trying to demean people who understandably get angry from being treated unfairly by a system their whole lives is also bullshit. You might like to pretend you're spock, but it just makes you an unsympathetic ass.

This isn't an exercise in pure logic. It's too bad you can't see that.

Wrong, you are equivocating. I'm not demeaning people who are legitimately angry. I'm not demeaning people who are legitimately protesting against police brutality, slavery or past wrongs,

I am saying that legitimate protests are being hijacked by extremists , looters, riotors, those who take joy in destruction for its own sake....that it is the extremists who demean all who protest in a reasonable manner.

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

Calling someone an idiot and an ass because they think all lives matter hardly furthers the contest of ideas.
Seriously.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

Calling someone an idiot and an ass because they think all lives matter hardly furthers the contest of ideas.
Seriously.

View attachment 28360

In that book Pinker argues for political correctness and why it's a good thing. He also argues against it. It's good in some aspects and bad in others.

I agree with Worldtraveller though. If you pick this moment to say "All lives matter" you are saying it in response to "black lives matter". So what you are saying in effect is that black lives don't matter. Timing is important.

If you genuinely think that black lives matter, since they are included in all lives, then why not just nod and agree, "yes, black lives do matter"? Why the need to point out that all lives matter? What is your objection?

 

[DBT]

Nobody was saying that some lives don't matter. All lives matter. The issue was how to go about deciding the fate of questionable monuments, former slave owners, etc.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Nobody was saying that some lives don't matter. All lives matter. The issue was how to go about deciding the fate of questionable monuments, former slave owners, etc.

You mean people that committed the highest crime of treason, right? The question was, "what do we do with the statues dedicated to those that committed treason, including the statues that were erected near the Civil Rights Movement as a reminder of why the South really fought?"

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You're essentially (one of) the idiot(s) at the back of the BLM protest yelling "all lives matter". Seriously.

Calling someone an idiot and an ass because they think all lives matter hardly furthers the contest of ideas.
Seriously.

All lives very much matter. Equal Protection under the Constitution. #BLM was pointing out the lack of equal protection for them. #BLM probably should have named it Black Lives Matter Too, but probably figured white people would have been smart enough to understand what #BLM meant.

"All lives matter" is a true statement, but in general, it was being used by white people that don't think blacks are being unfairly targeted by police. So the term while accurate, is being used by idiots and asses, and naive people that don't know the origin of "all lives matter".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are we still discussing toppling statues or are we just waving our fannies now?

Isn't it interesting how when Iraqis pulled down Sadam's statue, US conservatives cheered and celebrated it as a great sign of achievement and progress without a single conservative voice saying "That's wrong.

Did they though? I remember that and saw the odd propaganda signs you see. Few people in the images, a lot of repeated short video clips. I was never really sold that Iraqi's knocked over the statue and it was a convoluted PR piece for the W Admin for saving the Iraqis.

Regardless, Hussein is a derail as Hussein led Iraq. The confederate statues of Jefferson Davis... there is no Confederacy, there never was a Confederacy. No one ever recognized it. So we have the guy who was the President of nothing and he has a statue. At least Hussein was a dictator of a plot of land that people recognized as a plot of land he was in charge of.

You're splitting hairs. The Confederacy certainly existed. Great Britain and France recognized it as a belligerent, which enabled Confederate agents to arrange for arms.

That is accurate, hence the Emancipation Proclamation which helped put a wedge with diplomatic recognition, or which there never was formal recognition of the Confederate territory.

 

[laughing dog]

Nobody was saying that some lives don't matter. All lives matter. The issue was how to go about deciding the fate of questionable monuments, former slave owners, etc.

In a perfect world, those statutes would never have been erected in public place. Hell, in a perfect world, there would have been no slavery. If the world had become perfect after those statutes had been erected, there would have been no laws preventing their movement. If the world had been become perfect after those laws had come into place, then there would have been calm, democratic decision making.

Unfortunately, the world is not a perfect place. Sometimes, less than desirable actions and outcomes occur. Sometimes, civil disobedience or "mob rule" is on the side of right. Doesn't make it desirable, but sometimes that is the way it is. I don't think the mobs are the way to go, but this time, they got it right, so I have little problem with their actions.

Now, can you point to people in this thread who advocated for mob rule? If not, then the issue was only in your head and no where else.

 

[DBT]

Nobody was saying that some lives don't matter. All lives matter. The issue was how to go about deciding the fate of questionable monuments, former slave owners, etc.

You mean people that committed the highest crime of treason, right? The question was, "what do we do with the statues dedicated to those that committed treason, including the statues that were erected near the Civil Rights Movement as a reminder of why the South really fought?"

Not all statues/monuments damaged or defaced were in the same category.

The point was not that some should or should not be removed, but the process by which it's determined which monument should stay and which should be removed, relocated or destroyed.

Democracy at work.

If the Democratic process doesn't work, fix it.

 

[Rhea]

Nobody was saying that some lives don't matter. All lives matter. The issue was how to go about deciding the fate of questionable monuments, former slave owners, etc.

You mean people that committed the highest crime of treason, right? The question was, "what do we do with the statues dedicated to those that committed treason, including the statues that were erected near the Civil Rights Movement as a reminder of why the South really fought?"

Not all statues/monuments damaged or defaced were in the same category.

The point was not that some should or should not be removed, but the process by which it's determined which monument should stay and which should be removed, relocated or destroyed.

Democracy at work.

If the Democratic process doesn't work, fix it.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

Millions of black citizens of the united states spent their entires lives under statues of their oppressors, and died with those statues still up - their efforts to rectify the injustice unheard.

These are statues of oppressors.
These are statues of traitors
These are statues deliberately erected to rub that in the faces of the oppressed

They already had “due process”. It was a war. They lost.

 

[DBT]

Not all statues/monuments damaged or defaced were in the same category.

The point was not that some should or should not be removed, but the process by which it's determined which monument should stay and which should be removed, relocated or destroyed.

Democracy at work.

If the Democratic process doesn't work, fix it.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

Millions of black citizens of the united states spent their entires lives under statues of their oppressors, and died with those statues still up - their efforts to rectify the injustice unheard.

These are statues of oppressors.
These are statues of traitors
These are statues deliberately erected to rub that in the faces of the oppressed

They already had “due process”. It was a war. They lost.

Sure, folks should lobby, pressure their representative for the removal of those that should be removed, giving reasons. If there was a poor response from the Government in the past, that should be addressed. Democracy should be made to work, to serve the needs of the people as a whole.

 

[Rhea]

Democracy is totally not needed to determine the disposition of statues erected for the purpose of oppression portraying traitors and oppressors.


I do not know why you think a statue requires legisltion and the permission of the government when the people have clearly spoken and have been speaking since the images of the traitors were first shoved in the faces of the oppressed.

Indeed, we talked about this in detail, back in the day.
To wit:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The good folks of America are altering it.

 

[bilby]

Democracy is totally not needed to determine the disposition of statues ...

Indeed. Democracy is a victim of its own success; It's a good solution to an intractable problem that has dogged mankind for millennia - How do you resolve questions of pure opinion, when forming public or community policy, without creating tyranny?

Sadly, people see how effective it has been, and start trying to apply it to every question that arises. But democracy - aka popularity - is a last resort. It's the methodology you should use when observation, reason, and compassion are inadequate to the task of determining the best way forward. But if you can find a solution through observation, reason, or even compassion, democracy is then just the appeal to popularity fallacy, dressed up as reasonableness.

We don't need democracy to answer questions of fact; it's insane to apply it to questions that can be resolved by reasoning or logic. And it's cruel to apply it to matters of compassion for minorities, who (by definition) the democratic process must ignore.

The long, slow, torturous process of using representative democracy to change anything is entirely useless when an issue causes great harm to a minority, and no notable effects at all for the majority.

Much better to have the citizens who care take direct action. Fuck the system. The system is a bunch of guidelines, and democracy is the last resort for setting guidelines in matters of pure opinion.

 

[blastula]

Madison protests turn violent as Wisconsin state Sen. Tim Carpenter attacked, statues torn down - The Washington Post

They also pulled down two statues that stood outside the statehouse, including one of Col. Hans Christian Heg, a Norwegian immigrant and abolitionist who died fighting for the Union during the Civil War. Heg’s likeness was beheaded and thrown into a nearby lake, WKOW reported. The other statue torn from its base was a replica of Madison’s famed “Forward” statue, intended by its creator to be an “allegory of devotion and progress,” according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

A brain dead mob. Are only the antifa assholes left protesting now?

 

[lpetrich]

H.R.7164 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): To require the Secretary of Defense to change the name of any military installation or other property under the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense that is currently named after any individual who took up arms against the United States during the American Civil War or any individual or entity that supported such efforts, and for other purposes. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

Introduced by Rep. Clarke, Yvette D. [D-NY-9], it now has 46 cosponsors, 30 original.

 

[DBT]

Madison protests turn violent as Wisconsin state Sen. Tim Carpenter attacked, statues torn down - The Washington Post

They also pulled down two statues that stood outside the statehouse, including one of Col. Hans Christian Heg, a Norwegian immigrant and abolitionist who died fighting for the Union during the Civil War. Heg’s likeness was beheaded and thrown into a nearby lake, WKOW reported. The other statue torn from its base was a replica of Madison’s famed “Forward” statue, intended by its creator to be an “allegory of devotion and progress,” according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

A brain dead mob. Are only the antifa assholes left protesting now?

That's the problem with mob rule.

 

[barbos]

Madison protests turn violent as Wisconsin state Sen. Tim Carpenter attacked, statues torn down - The Washington Post

They also pulled down two statues that stood outside the statehouse, including one of Col. Hans Christian Heg, a Norwegian immigrant and abolitionist who died fighting for the Union during the Civil War. Heg’s likeness was beheaded and thrown into a nearby lake, WKOW reported. The other statue torn from its base was a replica of Madison’s famed “Forward” statue, intended by its creator to be an “allegory of devotion and progress,” according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

A brain dead mob. Are only the antifa assholes left protesting now?

"Norwegian immigrant", that's what doomed it. They know Trump likes Norwegian immigrants

 

[Worldtraveller]

Madison protests turn violent as Wisconsin state Sen. Tim Carpenter attacked, statues torn down - The Washington Post

They also pulled down two statues that stood outside the statehouse, including one of Col. Hans Christian Heg, a Norwegian immigrant and abolitionist who died fighting for the Union during the Civil War. Heg’s likeness was beheaded and thrown into a nearby lake, WKOW reported. The other statue torn from its base was a replica of Madison’s famed “Forward” statue, intended by its creator to be an “allegory of devotion and progress,” according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

A brain dead mob. Are only the antifa assholes left protesting now?

Meh, omelettes and eggs.

Answer these questions:
1) How many statues have been 'incorrectly' pulled down/destroyed?
2) How many black people have been killed at the hands of police that started all this?
3) Do you think lives or statues are more valuable?

That's the problem with mob rule.

Especially when the mob is wearing police uniforms and killing people with no repercussions!