Removing Confederate Monuments and Renaming Confederate-Named Military Bases

[lpetrich]

Kimberley Strassel on Twitter: "Finally, Biden asked more precise question about monuments. Responds by saying that it would be "better" if local governments took steps to take down confederate statues, but won't condemn people lawlessly tearing them down." / Twitter
then
Ted Cruz on Twitter: "Dems support the riots. The vandals. The anarchists.
That’s their base. And they’re terrified to offend them." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Yes, that is precisely why the party nominated... Joe Biden" / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Is it me, or is the GOP losing their touch with the conspiracy-theory-as-campaign-rhetoric technique?" / Twitter

 

[Rhea]

Kimberley Strassel on Twitter: "Finally, Biden asked more precise question about monuments. Responds by saying that it would be "better" if local governments took steps to take down confederate statues, but won't condemn people lawlessly tearing them down." / Twitter
then
Ted Cruz on Twitter: "Dems support the riots. The vandals. The anarchists.
That’s their base. And they’re terrified to offend them." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Yes, that is precisely why the party nominated... Joe Biden" / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Is it me, or is the GOP losing their touch with the conspiracy-theory-as-campaign-rhetoric technique?" / Twitter

LOL hilariously on target!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Kimberley Strassel on Twitter: "Finally, Biden asked more precise question about monuments. Responds by saying that it would be "better" if local governments took steps to take down confederate statues, but won't condemn people lawlessly tearing them down." / Twitter
then
Ted Cruz on Twitter: "Dems support the riots. The vandals. The anarchists.
That’s their base. And they’re terrified to offend them." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Yes, that is precisely why the party nominated... Joe Biden" / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Is it me, or is the GOP losing their touch with the conspiracy-theory-as-campaign-rhetoric technique?" / Twitter

I always ponder if AOC is really that sharp (and how much is fed to her), because it is a remarkable comeback. The idea of Joe Biden being far left-wing is remarkably out of touch. Heck, Ocasio-Cortez is hardly far left-wing!

 

[Worldtraveller]

Which night(s) and which citie(s) are you talking about?
There was not fighting and killing at every statue, and certainly not every statue was unrelated to the issue.
So why are you painting all the activity with the actions of a few?
Why night and which city are you talking about?

It doesn't have to happen in every instance for it to happen. It happened. Mobs went on the rampage.

What rate of death, looting or indiscriminate destruction of property is acceptable? Is toppling, say, three statues worth a single life?

I say there are better ways.

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING THERE ARE BETTER WAYS THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

Jeezy creezy, guys, it's not that hard.

Peaceful change is preferable to change brought about by conflict. <<< We all agree on this point.

We are arguing over what happens when a change doesn't happen despite persistent peaceful efforts and the support of the majority.

You can just keep quoting this post over and over again, but they'll just keep ignoring it.

 

[lpetrich]

As Confederate monuments tumble, die-hards are erecting replacements - The Washington Post

The teardowns get all the attention, Walter “Donnie” Kennedy grumbles.

Every time a local government votes to remove a century-old Confederate war monument, every time activists swing ropes around statues and yank them to the ground, “our enemies claim victory again,” said Kennedy, the chief of heritage operations for the Sons of Confederate Veterans. “We know America doesn’t agree with us — heck, they fought a war against us — but we’re going to tell our story.”

The Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy are fighting back, building new monuments and buying unwanted existing statues.

Most of the removals, whether by vote of local government or by activists taking matters into their own hands, have occurred in midsize or large cities. Protests against monuments took place this spring in dozens of small towns, but few of those structures have come down.

The article discussed some removal and transfer efforts, like a town ridding itself of a statue by selling it for $1.

“The UDC has taken back a few monuments, but I don’t think they have the stomach for the fight,” Cox said. “It’s an aging organization. The Daughters have ceded their authority to the men’s groups.”

The UDC, founded in 1894, still receives annual payments from several states for maintenance of Confederate veterans’ graves. It still encourages members to learn and recite its Confederate Catechism, a compilation of the group’s basic beliefs, including this statement: “Slaves, for the most part, were faithful and devoted. Most slaves were usually ready and willing to serve their masters.”

Sons of Confederate Veterans leaders said they have maintained their membership while the UDC’s numbers have declined sharply. “The problem in many places is that the UDC chapters that owned the monuments have died out,” McCluney said.

But the Sons attribute the Daughters’ silence more to Southern tradition than to diminished capacity.

“They are ladies of the Old South,” Kennedy said, “and there’s an old saying that a lady’s name should only appear in the newspaper twice in her life — at her birth and at her funeral.”

That's an interesting issue. There are plenty of female white nationalists and white supremacists and plenty of Klanswomen and even plenty of female neo-Nazis. But this female neo-Confederate organization is dwindling. Does it have a reputation as some old ladies' club among many of the younger female white nationalists?

It must be noted that some early feminists were grotesquely racist, like the first female US Senator ever:  Rebecca Latimer Felton

 

[repoman]

Just don't rename any Moon craters.

 

[lpetrich]

Punishment for their sins.

NowThis on Twitter: "Hurricane Laura damaged a statue of a Confederate soldier in Lake Charles, Louisiana, just two weeks after local officials had voted to keep it. https://t.co/EIWJjE2KnE" / Twitter

In the picture: "Hurricane Laura toppled a statue that local officials fought to keep"

Zina Spezakis, CFA on Twitter: "This wins the internet today." / Twitter

 

[DBT]

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING THERE ARE BETTER WAYS THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

Jeezy creezy, guys, it's not that hard.

Peaceful change is preferable to change brought about by conflict. <<< We all agree on this point.

We are arguing over what happens when a change doesn't happen despite persistent peaceful efforts and the support of the majority.

You can just keep quoting this post over and over again, but they'll just keep ignoring it.

Something is being ignored: looting, rioting and killing on the streets of America. But I guess that's fine, as long as it brings peace, love and harmony.....

 

[Arctish]

EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING THERE ARE BETTER WAYS THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

Jeezy creezy, guys, it's not that hard.

Peaceful change is preferable to change brought about by conflict. <<< We all agree on this point.

We are arguing over what happens when a change doesn't happen despite persistent peaceful efforts and the support of the majority.

You can just keep quoting this post over and over again, but they'll just keep ignoring it.

Something is being ignored: looting, rioting and killing on the streets of America. But I guess that's fine, as long as it brings peace, love and harmony.....

It's being ignored?

Then why are there so many stories about rioting, looting, and violence all over the news? Why so many editorials, opinion pieces, tweets, and posts? Why is it getting so much attention on the discussion boards I visit?

Perhaps you mean it isn't being decried in all caps, all day, every day, by everyone. If so, then I'll do my part.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO ACHIEVE CHANGE THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

 

[Jarhyn]

Something is being ignored: looting, rioting and killing on the streets of America. But I guess that's fine, as long as it brings peace, love and harmony.....

It's being ignored?

Then why are there so many stories about rioting, looting, and violence all over the news? Why so many editorials, opinion pieces, tweets, and posts? Why is it getting so much attention on the discussion boards I visit?

Perhaps you mean it isn't being decried in all caps, all day, every day, by everyone. If so, then I'll do my part.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO ACHIEVE CHANGE THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

Yeah, like nobody is saying they want to see looting, death, and rioting. We are saying that we want to see peaceful acceptance of reasonable requests.

It's when people do not peacefully accede to reasonable requests by the majority that we are forced to do it the other way.

 

[DBT]

Something is being ignored: looting, rioting and killing on the streets of America. But I guess that's fine, as long as it brings peace, love and harmony.....

It's being ignored?

Then why are there so many stories about rioting, looting, and violence all over the news? Why so many editorials, opinion pieces, tweets, and posts? Why is it getting so much attention on the discussion boards I visit?

Perhaps you mean it isn't being decried in all caps, all day, every day, by everyone. If so, then I'll do my part.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO ACHIEVE CHANGE THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

That's not what I meant by 'ignored.' Given the context of my remark, that should been clear.

 

[DBT]

Something is being ignored: looting, rioting and killing on the streets of America. But I guess that's fine, as long as it brings peace, love and harmony.....

It's being ignored?

Then why are there so many stories about rioting, looting, and violence all over the news? Why so many editorials, opinion pieces, tweets, and posts? Why is it getting so much attention on the discussion boards I visit?

Perhaps you mean it isn't being decried in all caps, all day, every day, by everyone. If so, then I'll do my part.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO ACHIEVE CHANGE THAN DEATH, LOOTING, AND THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY!

Yeah, like nobody is saying they want to see looting, death, and rioting. We are saying that we want to see peaceful acceptance of reasonable requests.

It's when people do not peacefully accede to reasonable requests by the majority that we are forced to do it the other way.

Right, now I see, tacitly condoning (oh, well, bad shit inevitably happens) mindless, gratuitous violence, looting, burning, killing, mob mentality that takes advantage of past wrongs is the way forward, a means to an end, a worthwhile way of promoting social peace and harmony.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, like nobody is saying they want to see looting, death, and rioting. We are saying that we want to see peaceful acceptance of reasonable requests.

It's when people do not peacefully accede to reasonable requests by the majority that we are forced to do it the other way.

Right, now I see, tacitly condoning (oh, well, bad shit inevitably happens) mindless, gratuitous violence, looting, burning, killing, mob mentality that takes advantage of past wrongs is the way forward, a means to an end, a worthwhile way of promoting social peace and harmony.

Second this. It's always presented as an inevitable result but it isn't.

 

[Politesse]

As though the police aren't also engaging in gratuitous violence on the basis of alleged past and future wrongs. You should not trust the instruments of state as much as you do.

 

[bilby]

Yeah, like nobody is saying they want to see looting, death, and rioting. We are saying that we want to see peaceful acceptance of reasonable requests.

It's when people do not peacefully accede to reasonable requests by the majority that we are forced to do it the other way.

Right, now I see, tacitly condoning (oh, well, bad shit inevitably happens) mindless, gratuitous violence, looting, burning, killing, mob mentality that takes advantage of past wrongs is the way forward, a means to an end, a worthwhile way of promoting social peace and harmony.

Second this. It's always presented as an inevitable result but it isn't.

Every time in history that people have been oppressed and their grievances gone unanswered by the authorities, it has happened.

That's looking a lot like an inevitable result to me.

 

[Arctish]

Yeah, like nobody is saying they want to see looting, death, and rioting. We are saying that we want to see peaceful acceptance of reasonable requests.

It's when people do not peacefully accede to reasonable requests by the majority that we are forced to do it the other way.

Right, now I see, tacitly condoning (oh, well, bad shit inevitably happens) mindless, gratuitous violence, looting, burning, killing, mob mentality that takes advantage of past wrongs is the way forward, a means to an end, a worthwhile way of promoting social peace and harmony.

Second this. It's always presented as an inevitable result but it isn't.

The looting, death, and rioting is an inevitable result of failure to negotiate and compromise, but failure is not inevitable. Most of the time we're successful, which is why we have a society with hundreds of millions of people getting along just fine nearly all of the time.

On this particular issue the failure is very noticeable, but it's not normal. Usually there's a lot less drama over public spaces.

 

[DBT]

It appears that many of the 'protestors' take advantage of, and hijack legitimate protest, not for ethical reasons, not for past wrongs, but for their own pleasure and gain, to raid stores for luxury products, to engage in gratuitous violence for its own sake. It's in the interest of genuine protestors to demonstrate peacefully, not fight, kill, loot or destroy property...which is not an inevitable consequence of civil protest.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Second this. It's always presented as an inevitable result but it isn't.

Every time in history that people have been oppressed and their grievances gone unanswered by the authorities, it has happened.

That's looking a lot like an inevitable result to me.

Nope, whether there is violence or not is far more about how much pot-stirring is going on than about the actual conditions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It appears that many of the 'protestors' take advantage of, and hijack legitimate protest, not for ethical reasons, not for past wrongs, but for their own pleasure and gain, to raid stores for luxury products, to engage in gratuitous violence for its own sake. It's in the interest of genuine protestors to demonstrate peacefully, not fight, kill, loot or destroy property...which is not an inevitable consequence of civil protest.

I don't believe most of the people doing that are the actual protesters. It's others that exploit the protests as cover for their actions and sometimes with the goal of discrediting the protesters.

 

[DBT]

It appears that many of the 'protestors' take advantage of, and hijack legitimate protest, not for ethical reasons, not for past wrongs, but for their own pleasure and gain, to raid stores for luxury products, to engage in gratuitous violence for its own sake. It's in the interest of genuine protestors to demonstrate peacefully, not fight, kill, loot or destroy property...which is not an inevitable consequence of civil protest.

I don't believe most of the people doing that are the actual protesters. It's others that exploit the protests as cover for their actions and sometimes with the goal of discrediting the protesters.

Different groups pursue their own interests. Those raiding Prada or Gucci stores may be more interested in the luxury products than social justice.

If social justice was their concern, they would not be destroying or stealing other people's property.