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Reparations - Is it time to get the lead out?

Women in the U.S. could not vote before 1920. Should women today receive reparations because the government at one time endorsed misogyny?

Men are owed reparations in the U.S., not women. Men are the only people required to register for selective service.

What Happens If You Don't Register for Selective Service. If you are required to register and you don't, you will not be eligible for federal student aid, federal job training, or a federal job. You may be prosecuted and face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or jail time of up to five years.
1) Not any more.

2) Men who were actually selected did get paid for their service. If they were killed in the line of duty, their families were compensated. Not so sure about the men involved in the Tuskegee 'experiments', though. So you might want to double check that.
 
Women in the U.S. could not vote before 1920. Should women today receive reparations because the government at one time endorsed misogyny?

Men are owed reparations in the U.S., not women. Men are the only people required to register for selective service.

What Happens If You Don't Register for Selective Service. If you are required to register and you don't, you will not be eligible for federal student aid, federal job training, or a federal job. You may be prosecuted and face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or jail time of up to five years.
Jebus, white people are such whiny babies.
 
A better course is to improve the lives of all Americans, with special consideration for the victims of governmental violence and their children.

I agree. And not just governmental violence. As you will know, there are also more subtle, indirect and yet pervasive ways that very disadvantageous and unfair inequalities are created and sustained, and many of these are much more recent than slavery. If I was an American, I'd have been alive during Jim Crow, for example (well I was in fact alive during Jim Crow, just not in the USA). :)
 
Women in the U.S. could not vote before 1920. Should women today receive reparations because the government at one time endorsed misogyny?

Well, I'm descended from women who couldn't vote (on my mother's side, but also on my father's side if you go back far enough) so I figure that should get me some of those reparations. And also get me off the hook for paying reparations since my ancestors couldn't vote for the government that endorsed slavery. Because of the woman thing, and the fact my ancestors didn't own slaves to my knowledge and/or live in this country at the time.
 
I have always found this issue to be mind-muddling in an extreme sense. My overall take is that I cannot for a second believe that a reparations bill could be passed in Congress -- and in that case, setting out the terms and procedures is a mug's game. There is a lot of sense to the posts above that question how reparations could work. For one thing, would it not force lawmakers to define race? Would we back to the notions of mulattos and quadroons? Also, would the (hypothetical) political movement on reparations not be more incendiary than the immigration issues that put Trump in office? Would it not result in an even crazier GOP with a significantly larger base?
Opposing all of that is a notion that a friend put in my head years ago when reparations was a relatively fresh notion. I listed all the objections I had and she said, "Didn't we do reparations for Indian tribes and don't we continue to do that for tribes that lost land?"
But again, I find it hard to commit to this issue when it seems completely unachievable.
 
Some of my ancestors were Irish and had to deal with things like "No Irish Need Apply" signs and the like while growing up. Does that mean I'm entitled to reparations?

Some of my other ancestors where English and put up a bunch of things like "No Irish Need Apply" signs while they were growing up. Does this impact the reparations I get from my other ancestors?
 
I have always found this issue to be mind-muddling in an extreme sense. My overall take is that I cannot for a second believe that a reparations bill could be passed in Congress -- and in that case, setting out the terms and procedures is a mug's game. There is a lot of sense to the posts above that question how reparations could work. For one thing, would it not force lawmakers to define race? Would we back to the notions of mulattos and quadroons? Also, would the (hypothetical) political movement on reparations not be more incendiary than the immigration issues that put Trump in office? Would it not result in an even crazier GOP with a significantly larger base?
Opposing all of that is a notion that a friend put in my head years ago when reparations was a relatively fresh notion. I listed all the objections I had and she said, "Didn't we do reparations for Indian tribes and don't we continue to do that for tribes that lost land?"
But again, I find it hard to commit to this issue when it seems completely unachievable.

It seems blatantly unConstitutional on its face too. So there's that.
 
A better course is to improve the lives of all Americans, with special consideration for the victims of governmental violence and their children.

I agree. And not just governmental violence. As you will know, there are also more subtle, indirect and yet pervasive ways that very disadvantageous and unfair inequalities are created and sustained, and many of these are much more recent than slavery. If I was an American, I'd have been alive during Jim Crow, for example (well I was in fact alive during Jim Crow, just not in the USA). :)

Yes. We DO have informal slavery still also. It's not legal, but it happens. With varying degrees of government endorsement, too - I am thinking of the so-called Apprenticeship Acts in my home state, for instance, many of whose victims are still living - and it complicates things. If we start adding up the total harm this government has caused over time, the ledger is going to contain an unpayable number. I don't think it would benefit anyone to empty the treasury in redress of wrongs done, but they should be remembered as debts when we are designing future policies. Not in a clumsy, race-based way, but in terms of concrete harm countered by concrete solutions.

(The Irish people certainly have their own just grievances with the US government, if it comes to that! Though those wounds are older and forgotten by many. One thing I have realized in my studies of genealogy is how many of my own Northern Irish relatives came here under indenture. Of course, I suppose that bill would land in London, not Washington. There are more recent episodes of harm against ethnically Irish citizens and communities, though.)
 
Some of my ancestors were Irish and had to deal with things like "No Irish Need Apply" signs and the like while growing up. Does that mean I'm entitled to reparations?

Some of my other ancestors where English and put up a bunch of things like "No Irish Need Apply" signs while they were growing up. Does this impact the reparations I get from my other ancestors?

They lynched Italians too.

Race is the wrong word. We should be talking ethnicity if talking anything.
 
Some of my ancestors were Irish and had to deal with things like "No Irish Need Apply" signs and the like while growing up. Does that mean I'm entitled to reparations?

Some of my other ancestors where English and put up a bunch of things like "No Irish Need Apply" signs while they were growing up. Does this impact the reparations I get from my other ancestors?

They lynched Italians too.

Race is the wrong word. We should be talking ethnicity if talking anything.

The colloquial use of the word "race" covers all of that.

We don't need to be pedantic bitches, it's a choice. :)
 
I have always found this issue to be mind-muddling in an extreme sense. My overall take is that I cannot for a second believe that a reparations bill could be passed in Congress -- and in that case, setting out the terms and procedures is a mug's game. There is a lot of sense to the posts above that question how reparations could work. For one thing, would it not force lawmakers to define race? Would we back to the notions of mulattos and quadroons? Also, would the (hypothetical) political movement on reparations not be more incendiary than the immigration issues that put Trump in office? Would it not result in an even crazier GOP with a significantly larger base?
Opposing all of that is a notion that a friend put in my head years ago when reparations was a relatively fresh notion. I listed all the objections I had and she said, "Didn't we do reparations for Indian tribes and don't we continue to do that for tribes that lost land?"
But again, I find it hard to commit to this issue when it seems completely unachievable.

I think I know where you're coming from. I would only say two things. First, there is, imo, too much focus only on the negatives and obstacles and the difficulties (in discussion at least, we could be less so, but hey, it's the internet) and second, I think it is a good idea that these things are aired and indeed studied, even if only to frame political discussion better.
 
A better course is to improve the lives of all Americans, with special consideration for the victims of governmental violence and their children.

I agree. And not just governmental violence. As you will know, there are also more subtle, indirect and yet pervasive ways that very disadvantageous and unfair inequalities are created and sustained, and many of these are much more recent than slavery. If I was an American, I'd have been alive during Jim Crow, for example (well I was in fact alive during Jim Crow, just not in the USA). :)

Yes. We DO have informal slavery still also. It's not legal, but it happens. With varying degrees of government endorsement, too - I am thinking of the so-called Apprenticeship Acts in my home state, for instance, many of whose victims are still living - and it complicates things. If we start adding up the total harm this government has caused over time, the ledger is going to contain an unpayable number. I don't think it would benefit anyone to empty the treasury in redress of wrongs done, but they should be remembered as debts when we are designing future policies. Not in a clumsy, race-based way, but in terms of concrete harm countered by concrete solutions.

(The Irish people certainly have their own just grievances with the US government, if it comes to that! Though those wounds are older and forgotten by many. One thing I have realized in my studies of genealogy is how many of my own Northern Irish relatives came here under indenture. Of course, I suppose that bill would land in London, not Washington. There are more recent episodes of harm against ethnically Irish citizens and communities, though.)

Sure. I think those are also good points.

Reparations are complicated and controversial. Applying them in a manner that's fair to all and takes in all possible valid cases is....almost impossible. It could be that we would have to prioritise and start with the worst ones. Like triage. But who decides what's worst (or most deserving), and where do we stop?

For example, although I think I fundamentally disagree with most of what metaphor says, that men had to go to war........well, it's valid, ultimately, as a cause for asking for reparations.

Now I've arguably dwelt on obstacles, just after saying to someone else that there was too much of that in the thread. Lol.
 
Yes. We DO have informal slavery still also. It's not legal, but it happens. With varying degrees of government endorsement, too - I am thinking of the so-called Apprenticeship Acts in my home state, for instance, many of whose victims are still living - and it complicates things. If we start adding up the total harm this government has caused over time, the ledger is going to contain an unpayable number. I don't think it would benefit anyone to empty the treasury in redress of wrongs done, but they should be remembered as debts when we are designing future policies. Not in a clumsy, race-based way, but in terms of concrete harm countered by concrete solutions.

(The Irish people certainly have their own just grievances with the US government, if it comes to that! Though those wounds are older and forgotten by many. One thing I have realized in my studies of genealogy is how many of my own Northern Irish relatives came here under indenture. Of course, I suppose that bill would land in London, not Washington. There are more recent episodes of harm against ethnically Irish citizens and communities, though.)

Sure. I think those are also good points.

Reparations are complicated and controversial. Applying them in a manner that's fair to all and takes in all possible valid cases is....almost impossible. It could be that we would have to prioritise and start with the worst ones. Like triage. But who decides what's worst (or most deserving), and where do we stop?

For example, although I think I fundamentally disagree with most of what metaphor says, that men had to go to war........well, it's valid, ultimately, as a cause for asking for reparations.

Now I've arguably dwelt on obstacles, just after saying to someone else that there was too much of that in the thread. Lol.

Do you have something besides arbitrariness upon which you base your assertions?

What factors must be present for one group to pay reparations to another group for historical wrongs?

Recognizing that for most of history what we consider "wrong" today wasn't considered wrong. Conquering and subjugation were the norm. The Aztecs didn't consider the Spanish to be "wrong", they considered them to be people doing what they would have done if they could.
 
Recognizing that for most of history what we consider "wrong" today wasn't considered wrong. Conquering and subjugation were the norm. The Aztecs didn't consider the Spanish to be "wrong", they considered them to be people doing what they would have done if they could.

A lot of grievance culture is jealousy that one's ancestors were not as accomplished as other folks' ancestors.
 
Do you have something besides arbitrariness upon which you base your assertions?

What factors must be present for one group to pay reparations to another group for historical wrongs?

Recognizing that for most of history what we consider "wrong" today wasn't considered wrong. Conquering and subjugation were the norm. The Aztecs didn't consider the Spanish to be "wrong", they considered them to be people doing what they would have done if they could.

Quite honestly dismal, and I don't mind admitting this, I don't have a set of proposals or even a fully thought through position on reparations. Nor have I decided whether I am in favour of them as regards blacks in the USA, for example.

Though to be fair, I don't think the word arbitrary (looking at the definition) is right for anything I said, because although I wasn't proposing a system, I wasn't suggesting we be arbitrary (have no system) either.

I take your point about changing norms (and legal standards) yes. That definitely has to be taken into consideration. As, I feel (intuitively) does the passage of time, of itself (separately from the fact that the norms and laws also change over time). I also don't think I'm in favour of financial reparations, in this case.

I think I am on the brink of saying that the basis has to be either recent or current and ongoing.

Either that or....(making this up as I go along) the society simply appreciates (or decides) that it would be (or likely be) overall better for society if repairs were made, and the society just 'redistributes' according to some general principle of overall fairness or restorative justice (without blame) - which of course will never be a perfect redistribution - for general long term benefit of society.

The former of those is arguably the non-socialist solution and the latter the socialist one (with Utilitarianism as the basis for the socialism). :)
 
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Men are owed reparations in the U.S., not women. Men are the only people required to register for selective service.
1) Not any more.

2) Men who were actually selected did get paid for their service. If they were killed in the line of duty, their families were compensated. Not so sure about the men involved in the Tuskegee 'experiments', though. So you might want to double check that.

1) What? It's the current law of the land. The current US government imposes an obligation on men that it does not impose on women.

2) Being forced to serve is slavery. Not figurative wage slavery. When you do not have the right to withhold your labour under force of law, actual slavery.

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Men are owed reparations in the U.S., not women. Men are the only people required to register for selective service.
Jebus, white people are such whiny babies.

I'm glad for your contribution.
 
I'd like to see more data (we need to be careful with decontamination because sometimes stirring it up is worse than letting it sit) but this sounds like something that would actually benefit those who need it rather than middle class blacks that would have made it with or without racist assistance.

Provisionally, I'll support this.
 
1) What? It's the current law of the land. The current US government imposes an obligation on men that it does not impose on women.
It changed, but changed back again. It's currently under review (can't find a more recent article, but the change was due to congress last month).

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html

Well, they may change it now but we're talking about recouping for the sins of the past here. Men were involuntarily conscripted into most of this nations wars and as a result suffered loss of life in the millions.

The government was complicit in this, so it follows men are due reparations.
 
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