Republicans for Biden

[Bomb#20]

Trying to compare an ambiguous death toll to a hypothetical one is about as unproductive an argument you can get and just as meaningful as declaring someone as not as bad as Hitler. I didn't make that clear - that was my fault.

Yes. I agree with you. That was my point too! I was not trying to compare an ambiguous death toll to a hypothetical one; I was trying to preemptively take any such attempted comparison off the table. I guess I didn't make that clear, and that was my fault.

 

[Bomb#20]

Yes, Iraq was probably the worst US foreign policy decision ever made by a President. Jason had said earlier that W was worse than Trump. I conceded that you could make a case maybe that W was worse in foreign policy. I do think that Iraq was the worst decision ever.

That looks like "current events bias" too. I can think of three Presidents' US foreign policy decisions that had far worse consequences for America, and probably for the world, than our stupid Iraq debacle.

(3) Truman's decision to reverse Roosevelt's policy and supply France with the troop transports it needed to reoccupy "French" Indochina after the Japanese surrender.

(2) Johnson's decision to take ownership of France's Viet Nam disaster after France threw in the towel.

(1) Wilson's decision to enter the war and thereby torpedo the progress that was being made toward a negotiated draw in WWI, thereby bringing about an Allied victory, a vengeful France with the power to punish Germany, and WWII.

 

[funinspace]

Yeah, I get that to a point. Without going into a long history of US (not that other countries that have the power don't do this kind of shit), but after Pres. Carter I think the US got a little less bad. Sure the CIA probably had the occasional hit here and there. Then there was Reagan's mis-adventures in central America, but he also paid a modest political price for his not quite legal games. And as we learned much later, Reagan assisted Saddam Hussein in his chemical (weapons of mass destruction) war on Iran.

But like the article I cited, Pres. Obama launched around a thousand drone strikes on half a dozen countries just in 2016. That is way more death and destruction than the CIA was doing in the past. This "war on terror" shit took it to a new level. And Congress of course has been pretty much like a absent drunk father. But yes, drone strikes are less bad than B-52's over SE Asia, including the secret bombings of other countries...but that is a pretty damn low bar.



Yes, but he didn't push Congress much to do their job of clarifying how/when to use this newer military capability upon other countries...so Clownstick has the precedent of Presidents of both parties droning away pretty much anywhere they felt like it as long as the country was in our straight jacket or in chaos.


See above.

You think that Trump would have followed Obama's precedent foreign policy regarding drones? He's ignored and purposely bypassed all of his other precedents!

No, I don't think that. And the Dums should have realized that precedents, policy, and presidential executive orders were insufficient constraints on presidential power via this 'nicer' new technology call weaponized drones. They had 2 years to fix this. My point was that the escalated/expanded (over Bush) Drone Wars by Obama was a bad thing; and doing it w/o any expanded Congressional oversight, was doubly bad. And my point towards Jason was that Clownstick has taken these drone wars a step further...though he has yet to bomb yet another country into total chaos and death...which gives him one tiny brownie point.

BTW: appears that you've moved to Oregon. Great state. Great place to live.

Yes, quite a while ago; and yep.

 

[funinspace]

Yes, Iraq was probably the worst US foreign policy decision ever made by a President. Jason had said earlier that W was worse than Trump. I conceded that you could make a case maybe that W was worse in foreign policy. I do think that Iraq was the worst decision ever.

That looks like "current events bias" too. I can think of three Presidents' US foreign policy decisions that had far worse consequences for America, and probably for the world, than our stupid Iraq debacle.

(3) Truman's decision to reverse Roosevelt's policy and supply France with the troop transports it needed to reoccupy "French" Indochina after the Japanese surrender.

(2) Johnson's decision to take ownership of France's Viet Nam disaster after France threw in the towel.

(1) Wilson's decision to enter the war and thereby torpedo the progress that was being made toward a negotiated draw in WWI, thereby bringing about an Allied victory, a vengeful France with the power to punish Germany, and WWII.

Other than I'm too ignorant of the politics/events around WWI to say anything; a definite Yup to the Vietnam mess, death, and destruction being worse than the Iraq occupation.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes, Iraq was probably the worst US foreign policy decision ever made by a President. Jason had said earlier that W was worse than Trump. I conceded that you could make a case maybe that W was worse in foreign policy. I do think that Iraq was the worst decision ever.

That looks like "current events bias" too. I can think of three Presidents' US foreign policy decisions that had far worse consequences for America, and probably for the world, than our stupid Iraq debacle.

I did use the word "modern" each time I described the invasion of Iraq as the worst. That automatically excludes Wilson, who was worst, and also very bad things like McKinley's Spanish-American war or Polk's seizure of California, and maybe also Johnson deciding that US troops belongs in Vietnam.

 

[lpetrich]

Jeff Flake, Charlie Dent among more than two dozen former Republican lawmakers endorsing Joe Biden - CNNPolitics

1. Texas Rep. Steve Bartlett
2. Pennsylvania Rep. Bill Clinger
3. Missouri Rep. Tom Coleman
4. Pennsylvania Re. Charlie Dent
5. Hawaii Rep. Charles Djou
6. Oklahoma Rep. Mickey Edwards
7. Arizona Sen. Jeff Flake
8. Maryland Rep. Wayne Gilchrest
9. Pennsylvania Rep. Jim Greenwood
10. New Hampshire Sen. Gordon Humphrey
11. South Carolina Rep. Bob Inglis
12. Arizona Rep. Jim Kolbe
13. California Rep. Steve Kuykendall
14. Illinois Rep. Ray LaHood
15. Iowa Rep. Jim Leach
16. New York Rep. Susan Molinari
17. Maryland Rep. Connie Morella
18. Mississippi Rep. Mike Parker
19. New York Rep. Jack Quinn
20. Rhode Island Rep. Claudine Schneider
21. Connecticut Rep. Christopher Shays
22. Vermont Rep. Peter Smith
23. Texas Rep. Alan Steelman
24. New York Rep. Jim Walsh
25. Virginia Sen. John Warner
26. Virginia Rep. Bill Whitehurst
27. New Jersey Rep. Dick Zimmer

Trump campaign spokesman Tim Murtagh:

"Joe Biden has been a failure in the Washington Swamp for a half century, so no one should be surprised when Swamp creatures gather to protect one of their own," Murtaugh said. "President Trump has unprecedented support — over 95 percent — among real Republican voters and is also making strong inroads in Biden's core Democrat constituencies, like Black Americans, Latinos, and union members. President Trump's record of success for all Americans will carry him to victory in November."

Charlie Dent:

"There are a lot of former Republican members of Congress who are unhappy with the direction of the party," he said when asked what was behind the coalition. "We understand that political parties are not static, they're dynamic. But when they change, they should change for the better. And I think it's fair to say that they are concerned about this party becoming so Trumpian, frankly, driven by the power of one man. I think there's a lot of concern about the nativism, the protectionism, the isolationism. These are very concerning attributes."

He also said Trump's endorsement of Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican congressional candidate in Georgia with a history of promoting QAnon theories and making racist remarks, has some concerned "the leader of our party is embracing some, you know, pretty extreme type."

 

[fromderinside]

The Bush II invasion of Iraq was cynical but it was not contrived and falsified by US authorities as pretext. It was just falsified. Vietnam invasion, OTOH, was contrived and falsified by US authorities from 1956, the reneging on promised election for unification, through 1964, the fabrication of the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Much worse.

 

[angelo]

The Bush II invasion of Iraq was cynical but it was not contrived and falsified by US authorities as pretext. It was just falsified. Vietnam invasion, OTOH, was contrived and falsified by US authorities from 1956, the reneging on promised election for unification, through 1964, the fabrication of the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Much worse.

These so called Republicans turning on president Trump is obviously because he's anti Establishment and politically incorrect. Who was the spokesman from the Pentagon who with toy maps and fake images in hand insisted Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Why, it was Powel and GW Bush of course!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I'm not trying to get into Trump verses Obama in just how bad they were in foreign policy. And I had often criticized on this board, what Obama was doing via precedence to enable a next president...and sticking to just foreign military shit...

Yeah, Bush started indefinite detention without trial, which Obama extended to killing US citizens with trial. Can you imagine what Trump would have done had he used the powers that Bush and Obama? No, you can't imagine that, because you've already concluded that Trump is the worst there is so therefore you have to forget others who have done worse.

Sure Trump hasn't killed 2 Americans via the Drone wars, which certain was a problematic thing by Obama. But Trump has openly killed a top general of another country via these same Drone wars. He has also turbo charged, what Pres. Obama already boosted over Pres. Bush in drone strikes (though much of that had to do with the growth in the technology). The civilian death toll has to be far higher with the huge increase of destructive tonnage being dropped upon half a dozen countries...

That "top general of another country" wasn't a US Citizen. What Obama did wasn't "problematic".

Now Trump has a very mixed record on war. I suspect that it is because he doesn't personally give a damn about it but knows it is a duty of the President. That separates him from Bush who loved war so much he was able to be articulate when talking about it, and Obama who won a peace prize for how he was going to end war but then didn't.

Right now Merkel is furious that Trump is taking troops out of Germany, some of them being sent to other European countries and others going back to the US where they belong.

Never soft-speak Obama's killings of Anwar Al Awlaki. Obama's actions there were even worse than what happened to Manning, Snowden, and Assange. There is no under-stating the severity of the killing of Anwar Al Awlaki.

 

[Elixir]

... the Dums should have realized that precedents, policy, and presidential executive orders were insufficient constraints on presidential power via this 'nicer' new technology call weaponized drones. They had 2 years to fix this. My point was that the escalated/expanded (over Bush) Drone Wars by Obama was a bad thing; and doing it w/o any expanded Congressional oversight, was doubly bad. And my point towards Jason was that Clownstick has taken these drone wars a step further...though he has yet to bomb yet another country into total chaos and death...which gives him one tiny brownie point.

Totally agree about those 2 years of lost opportunity.
If Biden is elected and has another 2 year window of Congressional control, he damn well better get busy on curtailing his own and his successors' powers and codifying the balance of power that was intended by the founders, i.e. Article 1 precedes Article 2. Oversight entities must be separated from whatever they are overseeing, conflicts of interest better defined, remedies and penalties for corruption specified. Presidents should be indictable. Laws like the Hatch act, emoluments clause etc. need to be spelled out in irrefutable detail and made impeachable offenses. Personally I think Congress should be obligated to exercise oversight of the DOJ, and "acting" appointments to Senate-confirmed positions should be severely curtailed.