Republicans for Biden

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, it isn't surprising. None of these people ever actually liked Trump, he was just a useful idiot for getting their policies enacted. He's quickly becoming not useful, so one should expect a large distancing from him for the sake of protecting the Senate majority. Hopefully, that will fail but Americans don't have much in the way of long term memories, so who can say?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump. Perhaps it is "current events" bias, but it amazes me that anyone who was an adult while W was president can say we've had worse since then.

Depends on the measuring stick. As a person, W is much better than Trump. Foreign policy wise, that really is a tough one. Yes, the W Admin got a lot of people killed. Iraq managed to kill 100,000+ Iraqis, displace a million plus Iraqis, and managed to kill or maim 10,000 US troops. W did a good deal to piss off our allies. But Trump has managed to fuck with our friends and foes... but get all hot and steamy with Kim Jong Un and overly trustful of Putin (of whom spoke in secret for an hour... what the fuck can Putin and Turmp talk about for an hour?) Then the whole corrupt shakedown of a new Ukrainian President outsider who ran on a platform of anti-corruption.

Democracy-wise, W Admin was bad and there was a strong push against free speech especially regarding 9/11 and the Iraq War. Trump is testing some waters that we have never been tested. Contesting an election that hasn't happened yet,

Deficit spending, Trump much worse, though W wasn't great.

It is a rat race and while the W Admin has some seriously bad skeletons in their closet, Trump is undermining the US election using maneuvers on par with Nixon (Vietnam) and Reagan (Iran) as well putting in doubt the legitimacy of the 2020 general election. We'll have a better idea in January 2021 just how bad Trump was. But saying he was better than W is really a very very low bar.

 

[Politesse]

Well, it isn't surprising. None of these people ever actually liked Trump, he was just a useful idiot for getting their policies enacted. He's quickly becoming not useful, so one should expect a large distancing from him for the sake of protecting the Senate majority. Hopefully, that will fail but Americans don't have much in the way of long term memories, so who can say?

Even more so than with W, an awful lot of them are on record calling him the greatest president in history, demanding that he be considered above the rule of law, etc; if nothing else, hopefully it will hurt their individual re-election bids even if the Party survives. Another thing to the advantage of democracy surviving is that unlike W, Trump will still be very much in the public eye, saying terrible things and condemning who doesn't tow his personal party line, so it will be harder to safely declaim him post facto.

 

[Bomb#20]

Just going by the count of dead Americans, Trump probably killed a lot more by bungling the coronavirus response than Bush killed by conquering Iraq. Those are both both small numbers compared to the number of Iraqis that Bush killed, but their deaths have to be weighed against the unknowable number of Iraqis that Saddam Hussein would have killed.

You know, "At least he's not as bad as Hitler" is easier to type. And just as insightful an argument.

When you find yourself feeling the urge to bring up Hitler you might want to take a moment and rethink whether you're making a positive contribution to a discussion. I argued that Bush was not as bad as Trump. If you're proposing that this is analogous to saying he's not as bad as Hitler then that means you're equating Trump with Hitler, which puts you in, well, an unenviable position from which to accuse others of uninsightful arguments.

Contrariwise, if you took me to be defending Bush as being not as bad as Saddam, then you misunderstood me -- I offered no opinion on who was better or worse than Saddam. Since I was proposing pointless American body count as a suitable criterion for comparing presidents, I needed to forestall the obvious objection that non-Americans matter too. Bush may or may not have saved more Iraqis than he killed.

Anyway, I've offered my criterion for thinking Trump is worse than Bush; if you think arguments should be insightful, then instead of sniping, by all means favor us with your own criterion for deciding which awful president is worse.

 

[Patooka]

Contrariwise, if you took me to be defending Bush as being not as bad as Saddam, then you misunderstood me -- I offered no opinion on who was better or worse than Saddam. Since I was proposing pointless American body count as a suitable criterion for comparing presidents, I needed to forestall the obvious objection that non-Americans matter too. Bush may or may not have saved more Iraqis than he killed.

Fair enough. The bit I was objecting to was your statement of "the unknowable number of Iraqis that Saddam Hussein would have killed". That's some handwaving bullshit as there isn't even a figure everyone can agree upon with regards to the number of Iraqi civilians killed by US forces since 2003. Trying to compare an ambiguous death toll to a hypothetical one is about as unproductive an argument you can get and just as meaningful as declaring someone as not as bad as Hitler. I didn't make that clear - that was my fault.

As to the question whether Trump is worse than Bush Jnr....fuck, I honestly don't know but if I has to make a decision I'd say no. North Korea was in meaningful discussions with South Korea until W tried out his axis of evil rhetoric. The Bush administration was so fixated on Iraq, they pretty much allowed Pakistan to give away nuclear weapons research to just about anyone (not to mention the whole "we don't know where bin Laden is" fiasco). Bush got the ball rolling with the United States being unreliable with regards to international treaties and multinational talks. It was the 2004 election, not Pizzagate, that made smearing political opponents with vague conspiracy theories fashionable. Trump's wall came from Bush's border fence. What did the Bush administration do with the overwhelming international support after 9/11? Freedom fries, "Old Europe" and "You're either with us or against us so fuck you New Zealand". And let's not forget George W Bush would never had been President if it wasn't the fact his supporters are racist cunts who couldn't cope with a candidate having a mythical black baby.

So despite the fact there is a growing nostalgia towards the Bush Presidency (even this caustic fucking moron thinks so) everything that makes Trump such a fucking awful president was done in protoform during the Bush administration. Trump walked the walk but it was Bush Jnr who made it possible. The responsibility should lie with the cause and not the effect.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Libertarians have seen the fear risen every four years, that "what if he doesn't leave office." We've also been told every four years "you can't vote third party this is the most important election ever." Forgive me for being a bit blase about what has been predicted with massive doom and gloom every four years and hasn't happened every four years.

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump. Perhaps it is "current events" bias, but it amazes me that anyone who was an adult while W was president can say we've had worse since then.

What did W do that is remotely as bad as His Flatulence??

 

[Jarhyn]

Libertarians have seen the fear risen every four years, that "what if he doesn't leave office." We've also been told every four years "you can't vote third party this is the most important election ever." Forgive me for being a bit blase about what has been predicted with massive doom and gloom every four years and hasn't happened every four years.

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump. Perhaps it is "current events" bias, but it amazes me that anyone who was an adult while W was president can say we've had worse since then.

What did W do that is remotely as bad as His Flatulence??

The birth of the Patriot Act was pretty terrible, as was his handling of literally all the disasters that happened during his tenure. He set up the country for a terrible financial crash.

But balanced against the Orange Turd, who deployed secret police in DC and LA this week, who eliminated the departments to handle the disaster that is going to kill hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of Americans, who has gutted every cabinet department of any vestiges of competence, and engaged in fiscal policies that will make 2008 seem like "the good old days", and changed our position in the war on climate change to a war on the climate there's almost an order of magnitude of difference there. Not to mention that bit where he's attempting to make hating fascism a thought crime.

 

[J842P]

Libertarians have seen the fear risen every four years, that "what if he doesn't leave office." We've also been told every four years "you can't vote third party this is the most important election ever." Forgive me for being a bit blase about what has been predicted with massive doom and gloom every four years and hasn't happened every four years.

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump. Perhaps it is "current events" bias, but it amazes me that anyone who was an adult while W was president can say we've had worse since then.

What did W do that is remotely as bad as His Flatulence??

The Iraq War was worse than anything Trump has done.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

SCROTUS is losing his white, non-college educated base, and seniors:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ers-are-turning-trump-new-data-shows-why-now/

At this rate, he'll be left with the militant evangelicals and hardcore racists.

 

[ideologyhunter]

He has lost some of his support from white evangelicals & white Catholics since the Great Covid Vacation started.

 

[Elixir]

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump.

What a weird world you live in. Did Bush trot out military force to vanquish imaginary caravans, steal from the military budget to erect a monument to his own stupidity on private land and sacred native american burial sites? Did he encourage police violence, abandon allies on the battlefield, praise dictators while attacking the leaders of our allies, or deploy unidentified thugs to gas peaceful protesters?
Did Bush fire people who were trying to investigate him?
Did he intimidate witnesses to his actions?
Did Bush ignore congressional subpoenas? Did he fire all oversight personnel?
Did he install "acting" toadies in every position of power so they didn't have to be qualified at all, and he could fire them at a whim?
Did he blatantly and constantly violate the emoluments clause?
Did he hold secret un-recorded meetings with foreign adversaries with whom he was trying to make personal financial deals? Did Bush hide his tax returns?
Did he get caught trying to blackmail a foreign leader into manufacturing specious dirt on a political opponent?

Most importantly Jason, was Bush kompromatted from day one because a foreign adversary knew he was lying to the American public?

IMHO you'd have to be blindly in love with Jabba the President to think he is better than Bush.

Gee, one might be tempted to think Jason ran away from this. Wouldn't be the first time a libberpublican was known to do that...

An honest broker in discussion would at least offer SOME basis for his opinion that Bush did things that were worse than all those things Trump has done (and is still doing).

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump.

What a weird world you live in. Did Bush trot out military force to vanquish imaginary caravans, steal from the military budget to erect a monument to his own stupidity on private land and sacred native american burial sites? Did he encourage police violence, abandon allies on the battlefield, praise dictators while attacking the leaders of our allies, or deploy unidentified thugs to gas peaceful protesters?
Did Bush fire people who were trying to investigate him?
Did he intimidate witnesses to his actions?
Did Bush ignore congressional subpoenas? Did he fire all oversight personnel?
Did he install "acting" toadies in every position of power so they didn't have to be qualified at all, and he could fire them at a whim?
Did he blatantly and constantly violate the emoluments clause?
Did he hold secret un-recorded meetings with foreign adversaries with whom he was trying to make personal financial deals? Did Bush hide his tax returns?
Did he get caught trying to blackmail a foreign leader into manufacturing specious dirt on a political opponent?

Most importantly Jason, was Bush kompromatted from day one because a foreign adversary knew he was lying to the American public?

IMHO you'd have to be blindly in love with Jabba the President to think he is better than Bush.

Gee, one might be tempted to think Jason ran away from this. Wouldn't be the first time a libberpublican was known to do that...

An honest broker in discussion would at least offer SOME basis for his opinion that Bush did things that were worse than all those things Trump has done (and is still doing).

Sorry, selling one house and buying another.

After you remove all the idiotic Russian Conspiracy Theory, you are left with "Trump continued it" versus "Bush started it". If you're going to argue "continued it" is worse than "started it", that says something really awful about Barack Obama.

So Bush started the idea that the president has the ability to indefinitely detain any US citizen on the pretext of being on the wrong side of the "war on terror".
He also invaded Iraq because someone, not Iraq, did the 9/11 attacks. The invasion of Iraq has been the biggest modern stains on the US reputation, the biggest wrongdoing of the US in modern history. Nothing in the 21st Century compares. You have to go all the way back to Wilson to find someone as bad on foreign policy.

Yeah, Bush started indefinite detention without trial, which Obama extended to killing US citizens with trial. Can you imagine what Trump would have done had he used the powers that Bush and Obama? No, you can't imagine that, because you've already concluded that Trump is the worst there is so therefore you have to forget others who have done worse.

Yeah, I know, if I say "less bad" that means "I want raw buttsex". You can't tell the difference. Still, ever since W came out on the woke side about the Floyd riots you have made a deliberate effort to forget everything you hated him for.

 

[J842P]

And yes, I do recall W being worse than Trump.

What a weird world you live in. Did Bush trot out military force to vanquish imaginary caravans, steal from the military budget to erect a monument to his own stupidity on private land and sacred native american burial sites? Did he encourage police violence, abandon allies on the battlefield, praise dictators while attacking the leaders of our allies, or deploy unidentified thugs to gas peaceful protesters?
Did Bush fire people who were trying to investigate him?
Did he intimidate witnesses to his actions?
Did Bush ignore congressional subpoenas? Did he fire all oversight personnel?
Did he install "acting" toadies in every position of power so they didn't have to be qualified at all, and he could fire them at a whim?
Did he blatantly and constantly violate the emoluments clause?
Did he hold secret un-recorded meetings with foreign adversaries with whom he was trying to make personal financial deals? Did Bush hide his tax returns?
Did he get caught trying to blackmail a foreign leader into manufacturing specious dirt on a political opponent?

Most importantly Jason, was Bush kompromatted from day one because a foreign adversary knew he was lying to the American public?

IMHO you'd have to be blindly in love with Jabba the President to think he is better than Bush.

Gee, one might be tempted to think Jason ran away from this. Wouldn't be the first time a libberpublican was known to do that...

An honest broker in discussion would at least offer SOME basis for his opinion that Bush did things that were worse than all those things Trump has done (and is still doing).

None of those things come *even close* to how bad the Afhganistan/Iraq wars, and the overall Global War on Terror have been. Not even close.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Gee, one might be tempted to think Jason ran away from this. Wouldn't be the first time a libberpublican was known to do that...

An honest broker in discussion would at least offer SOME basis for his opinion that Bush did things that were worse than all those things Trump has done (and is still doing).

None of those things come *even close* to how bad the Afhganistan/Iraq wars, and the overall Global War on Terror have been. Not even close.

Not many would blame Bush for Afghanistan. They hosted and were allies with the group that attacked the US. Only the bizzarios would blame the US for that. Yes, Iraq was probably the worst US foreign policy decision ever made by a President. Jason had said earlier that W was worse than Trump. I conceded that you could make a case maybe that W was worse in foreign policy. I do think that Iraq was the worst decision ever. But I think that Trump's overrall foreign policy decisions will be cumulatively far worse for the US than W's foreign policy. He's destroyed many of our cherished alliances, destroyed our soft power and etc. And what in the world has Trump done regarding the "global war on terror?

 

[J842P]

And what in the world has Trump done regarding the "global war on terror?

Trump has overall withdrawn. So not much. Which is a good thing.

Yes, you can blame Bush for Afghanistan. None of what you stated justifies the idiotic move of trying to occupy and hold Afghanistan, even if I grant some form of action was in principle justified (I don't). The invasion and subsequent occupation was an impossible task from the beginning, anyone with two brain cells could have predicted the outcome: the Taliban will prevail in the end after we've spent a ton of gold and blood (which, of course, no one seems to ever ask how we pay for it when it comes to costly, drawn-out occupations, those sorts of questions are only for things like providing healthcare and education).

Again, we don't have to even touch on whether it was justified or not (and I'd rather not, suffice it to say, I think it is on the whole not very justified). There's plenty to blame Bush and the neocons about that war.

 

[Harry Bosch]

And what in the world has Trump done regarding the "global war on terror?

Trump has overall withdrawn. So not much. Which is a good thing.

Yes, you can blame Bush for Afghanistan. None of what you stated justifies the idiotic move of trying to occupy and hold Afghanistan, even if I grant some form of action was in principle justified (I don't). The invasion and subsequent occupation was an impossible task from the beginning, anyone with two brain cells could have predicted the outcome: the Taliban will prevail in the end after we've spent a ton of gold and blood (which, of course, no one seems to ever ask how we pay for it when it comes to costly, drawn-out occupations, those sorts of questions are only for things like providing healthcare and education).

Again, we don't have to even touch on whether it was justified or not (and I'd rather not, suffice it to say, I think it is on the whole not very justified). There's plenty to blame Bush and the neocons about that war.

I'd say that the Taliban hasn't won yet. I'm not counting out the moderates and liberals in Afghanistan who want a better life. I'm not going to defend Bush's foreign policy decisions. I didn't vote for him or his party. However, we were far united as a country under W than other Trump. Trump has divided our country and ruined our international good will more than any other president in history. By far. And for that reason, we are far weaker.

 

[funinspace]

I'm not trying to get into Trump verses Obama in just how bad they were in foreign policy. And I had often criticized on this board, what Obama was doing via precedence to enable a next president...and sticking to just foreign military shit...

Yeah, Bush started indefinite detention without trial, which Obama extended to killing US citizens with trial. Can you imagine what Trump would have done had he used the powers that Bush and Obama? No, you can't imagine that, because you've already concluded that Trump is the worst there is so therefore you have to forget others who have done worse.

Sure Trump hasn't killed 2 Americans via the Drone wars, which certain was a problematic thing by Obama. But Trump has openly killed a top general of another country via these same Drone wars. He has also turbo charged, what Pres. Obama already boosted over Pres. Bush in drone strikes (though much of that had to do with the growth in the technology). The civilian death toll has to be far higher with the huge increase of destructive tonnage being dropped upon half a dozen countries...

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/25/merry-christmas-us-drone-strikes/

What we do know is that the Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates that the U.S. carried out about 1,000 airstrikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen in 2016 — that is, strikes by both drones and manned aircraft. So far in 2019, they believe that the U.S. has conducted 5,425 airstrikes, five times as many. In the month of September, the U.S. upped the pace to almost 40 airstrikes per day.

Trump has made the drone wars even more shadowy, so we don't get to have any surity of what is even happening most of the time, just as he has done to hide Afghan operations:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/

 

[Harry Bosch]

I'm not trying to get into Trump verses Obama in just how bad they were in foreign policy. And I had often criticized on this board, what Obama was doing via precedence to enable a next president...and sticking to just foreign military shit...

Yeah, Bush started indefinite detention without trial, which Obama extended to killing US citizens with trial. Can you imagine what Trump would have done had he used the powers that Bush and Obama? No, you can't imagine that, because you've already concluded that Trump is the worst there is so therefore you have to forget others who have done worse.

Sure Trump hasn't killed 2 Americans via the Drone wars, which certain was a problematic thing by Obama. But Trump has openly killed a top general of another country via these same Drone wars. He has also turbo charged, what Pres. Obama already boosted over Pres. Bush in drone strikes (though much of that had to do with the growth in the technology). The civilian death toll has to be far higher with the huge increase of destructive tonnage being dropped upon half a dozen countries...

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/25/merry-christmas-us-drone-strikes/

What we do know is that the Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates that the U.S. carried out about 1,000 airstrikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen in 2016 — that is, strikes by both drones and manned aircraft. So far in 2019, they believe that the U.S. has conducted 5,425 airstrikes, five times as many. In the month of September, the U.S. upped the pace to almost 40 airstrikes per day.

Trump has made the drone wars even more shadowy, so we don't get to have any surity of what is even happening most of the time, just as he has done to hide Afghan operations:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/

Actually, Presidents have been secretly killing bad guys (with civilians as collateral damage) for many many years before Obama! It's just that Obama tried to be more open about it and to bring in judiciary processes to it. And drones made the assignations far more lethal to the bad guys (also killed far less civilians).

But yea, to agree with you, Trump continues to carry out the war on terror. J842 is mistaken to believe that Trump has withdrawn from it. Trump is just trying to be more secretive about it.

 

[funinspace]

I'm not trying to get into Trump verses Obama in just how bad they were in foreign policy. And I had often criticized on this board, what Obama was doing via precedence to enable a next president...and sticking to just foreign military shit...

Sure Trump hasn't killed 2 Americans via the Drone wars, which certain was a problematic thing by Obama. But Trump has openly killed a top general of another country via these same Drone wars. He has also turbo charged, what Pres. Obama already boosted over Pres. Bush in drone strikes (though much of that had to do with the growth in the technology). The civilian death toll has to be far higher with the huge increase of destructive tonnage being dropped upon half a dozen countries...

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/25/merry-christmas-us-drone-strikes/


Trump has made the drone wars even more shadowy, so we don't get to have any surity of what is even happening most of the time, just as he has done to hide Afghan operations:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/

Actually, Presidents have been secretly killing bad guys (with civilians as collateral damage) for many many years before Obama!

Yeah, I get that to a point. Without going into a long history of US (not that other countries that have the power don't do this kind of shit), but after Pres. Carter I think the US got a little less bad. Sure the CIA probably had the occasional hit here and there. Then there was Reagan's mis-adventures in central America, but he also paid a modest political price for his not quite legal games. And as we learned much later, Reagan assisted Saddam Hussein in his chemical (weapons of mass destruction) war on Iran.

But like the article I cited, Pres. Obama launched around a thousand drone strikes on half a dozen countries just in 2016. That is way more death and destruction than the CIA was doing in the past. This "war on terror" shit took it to a new level. And Congress of course has been pretty much like a absent drunk father. But yes, drone strikes are less bad than B-52's over SE Asia, including the secret bombings of other countries...but that is a pretty damn low bar.

It's just that Obama tried to be more open about it and to bring in judiciary processes to it.

Yes, but he didn't push Congress much to do their job of clarifying how/when to use this newer military capability upon other countries...so Clownstick has the precedent of Presidents of both parties droning away pretty much anywhere they felt like it as long as the country was in our straight jacket or in chaos.

And drones made the assignations far more lethal to the bad guys (also killed far less civilians).

See above.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yeah, I get that to a point. Without going into a long history of US (not that other countries that have the power don't do this kind of shit), but after Pres. Carter I think the US got a little less bad. Sure the CIA probably had the occasional hit here and there. Then there was Reagan's mis-adventures in central America, but he also paid a modest political price for his not quite legal games. And as we learned much later, Reagan assisted Saddam Hussein in his chemical (weapons of mass destruction) war on Iran.

But like the article I cited, Pres. Obama launched around a thousand drone strikes on half a dozen countries just in 2016. That is way more death and destruction than the CIA was doing in the past. This "war on terror" shit took it to a new level. And Congress of course has been pretty much like a absent drunk father. But yes, drone strikes are less bad than B-52's over SE Asia, including the secret bombings of other countries...but that is a pretty damn low bar.

It's just that Obama tried to be more open about it and to bring in judiciary processes to it.

Yes, but he didn't push Congress much to do their job of clarifying how/when to use this newer military capability upon other countries...so Clownstick has the precedent of Presidents of both parties droning away pretty much anywhere they felt like it as long as the country was in our straight jacket or in chaos.

And drones made the assignations far more lethal to the bad guys (also killed far less civilians).

See above.

You think that Trump would have followed Obama's precedent foreign policy regarding drones? He's ignored and purposely bypassed all of his other precedents! BTW: appears that you've moved to Oregon. Great state. Great place to live.