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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
You’re still not getting it. This does not violate physics. Light travels but if he's correct, and the eyes are efferent, not afferent, then the light from the object, regardless of how far away it is, is at the eye the second the object is seen, that is, if it is within the person's field of view. There is no gap between the light at the eye and the object seen, which would violate physics.
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
He is not denying that human behavior is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc. All he is doing is showing that when the conditions of the environment change, and there is economic security and the absence of all authority and control (including government as we know it), the desire to strike a first blow of hurt, at the expense of others, will be eliminated.

That doesn't make sense. There is a gap between the object emitting or reflecting light and the eye that detects that light, which is distance of travel. Given that light has a finite speed, it takes time to travel between the light source and the eye.

That's simply how it works, physics, it's undeniable.
If the eyes were afferent, it would be violating physics because a gap would exist but if the eyes work like he described, there would be no gap. Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor. I hope you try to understand his observations and why he came to this conclusion. It didn’t come out of thin air. I reduced the book to $1.95. It would be worth your while to read it. Just put in Seymour Lessans in the search bar at Amazon, and Decline and Fall of All Evil will show up.

No, the eyes have nothing to do with the speed of light and the distance it takes to get from the source to the eye, which is not instant, and cannot be instant.

Light carries information about the source and cannot magically appear ''at the eye'' without travel time.
It's not about light magically appearing at the eye; the wavelength IS at the eye when we look at the object as long as the object is able to be seen due to its brightness and its size and location. Obviously, if it's outside of our field of view, we won't be able to see it; if it is not bright enough, we won't be able to see it; and if it's not large enough or too far away, we won't be able to see it. And, yes, if he is right, distance and time are not involved because light alone is not bringing the image or wavelength through millions of years to us, even though light travels at 186,000 miles a second.
Again you are incorrect.

Wavelength does not appear at the eye, photons appear at the eye.

Photons have a wavelength but not in the sense you you probably see it.

The wavelength of a photon is the photons energy set by Planck's Constant. The wavelength of a photon is not the wavelength of a propagating light wave.

My long Term memory seems to be working.

Calculating The Energy of a Photon - Chemistry Steps
A photon's wavelength is inversely proportional to its energy. Shorter wavelengths correspond to higher energy photons, like gamma rays and X-rays, while longer wavelengths correspond to lower energy photons, like radio waves. The wavelength (λ) can be calculated using the formula: λ = hc/E, where h is Planck's constant, c is the speed of light, and E is the photon's energy.
You are in way over your head. You are using terms you do not understand.
 
She argue science without any understanding.

There were many threads on the science forum where Chi stains tried to discredit science that disputes Christian theology, like Young Earth Creationism and god starting the human race with Adam and Eve.

Evangelical argue science is out to destroy religion.

On the forum Peacegirl argues pseudo science that conflicts with established scince.

Christians on the forum have have argued for pseudoscience like Intelligent Design to try to get around evolution science.

The book is pseudoscience.

I showed in as simplest terms as I can how light works and how there can be no conditions where distance does not matter

The next step for Peacegirl would be to try and refute it.

You are asking her to explain how her author’s version of light and sight actually works, which the author somehow omitted to do in a 600-page book. Here is one of her explanations from another board:

How many times do I have to say that light travels, but non-absorbed light (the light that provides the mirror image) does not get (N) reflected which would indicate that it travels in that pattern forever. You will not understand why this is so if you don't see this from the efferent standpoint. That's why you're getting confused.

Does that clarify matters? :)
Light travels but to say it travels with the same pattern forever is a fallacy. It is only when we look at the object does the wavelength show up on our retina. His demonstration as to why he believed this was true starts on page 109. How dare you say that he omitted his observations regarding light and sight! You won't win by lying. 😡
It i a little more complicated.

Imagine light from a distant star. From Earth it looks like an isotropic radiator, meaning it radiates in all directions equally as an expanding sphere here around the star. As the sphere propagates the surface area expands and the energy density in watts per square meters goes down.

From Hygen's Principle all subsections on the traveling sphere, wavefront, contains all the information details.

When using a backyard Newtonian telescope when viewing a bright object a disk with a hole in it is put over the aperture. An aperture stop.

The object image dims, but all the details of the object are there.

The wavefront does go on forever, but energy density in watts/meter^2 goes towards zero. At some point it becomes undetectable by our instruments,.

A photon is either being created, propagating, or being absorbed. It has no rest state. It goes on forever unless it is boarded by something. No different than other quantum particles like electrons.

Put an electron charge on a metal surface and it stays there.

You first have to understand the wave-particle duality. It is fundamental. It is all based in experiment.

How would you know it is a fallacy?
I have not said any of this is a fallacy. The only fallacy is that we see the same exact image based on the object's reflection as it travels long distances. That is the only contention. All of the experiments done regarding density in watts per square or viewing a bright object with a disk and a hole over the aperture, does not change what we would see whether it was in real time or in delayed time. Nothing changes except for the direction of sight. I'm not sure how these experiments prove that we see in delayed time.
 
She argue science without any understanding.

There were many threads on the science forum where Chi stains tried to discredit science that disputes Christian theology, like Young Earth Creationism and god starting the human race with Adam and Eve.

Evangelical argue science is out to destroy religion.

On the forum Peacegirl argues pseudo science that conflicts with established scince.

Christians on the forum have have argued for pseudoscience like Intelligent Design to try to get around evolution science.

The book is pseudoscience.

I showed in as simplest terms as I can how light works and how there can be no conditions where distance does not matter

The next step for Peacegirl would be to try and refute it.

You are asking her to explain how her author’s version of light and sight actually works, which the author somehow omitted to do in a 600-page book. Here is one of her explanations from another board:

How many times do I have to say that light travels, but non-absorbed light (the light that provides the mirror image) does not get (N) reflected which would indicate that it travels in that pattern forever. You will not understand why this is so if you don't see this from the efferent standpoint. That's why you're getting confused.

Does that clarify matters? :)
Light travels but to say it travels with the same pattern forever is a fallacy. It is only when we look at the object does the wavelength show up on our retina. His demonstration as to why he believed this was true starts on page 109. How dare you say that he omitted his observations regarding light and sight! You won't win by lying. 😡
It i a little more complicated.

Imagine light from a distant star. From Earth it looks like an isotropic radiator, meaning it radiates in all directions equally as an expanding sphere here around the star. As the sphere propagates the surface area expands and the energy density in watts per square meters goes down.

From Hygen's Principle all subsections on the traveling sphere, wavefront, contains all the information details.

When using a backyard Newtonian telescope when viewing a bright object a disk with a hole in it is put over the aperture. An aperture stop.

The object image dims, but all the details of the object are there.

The wavefront does go on forever, but energy density in watts/meter^2 goes towards zero. At some point it becomes undetectable by our instruments,.

A photon is either being created, propagating, or being absorbed. It has no rest state. It goes on forever unless it is boarded by something. No different than other quantum particles like electrons.

Put an electron charge on a metal surface and it stays there.

You first have to understand the wave-particle duality. It is fundamental. It is all based in experiment.

How would you know it is a fallacy?
I have not said any of this is a fallacy. The only fallacy is that we see the same exact image based on the object's reflection. The only difference is that the object is seen in real time. All of the experiments done regarding density in watts per square or viewing a bright object with a disk and a hole over the aperture, does not change what we would see whether in real time or delayed time. I'm not sure how these experiments prove delayed vision.
We have already given you a gigantic list of proofs of delayed seeing.
 
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
You’re still not getting it. This does not violate physics. Light travels but if he's correct, and the eyes are efferent, not afferent, then the light from the object, regardless of how far away it is, is at the eye the second the object is seen, that is, if it is within the person's field of view. There is no gap between the light at the eye and the object seen, which would violate physics.
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
He is not denying that human behavior is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc. All he is doing is showing that when the conditions of the environment change, and there is economic security and the absence of all authority and control (including government as we know it), the desire to strike a first blow of hurt, at the expense of others, will be eliminated.

That doesn't make sense. There is a gap between the object emitting or reflecting light and the eye that detects that light, which is distance of travel. Given that light has a finite speed, it takes time to travel between the light source and the eye.

That's simply how it works, physics, it's undeniable.
If the eyes were afferent, it would be violating physics because a gap would exist but if the eyes work like he described, there would be no gap. Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor. I hope you try to understand his observations and why he came to this conclusion. It didn’t come out of thin air. I reduced the book to $1.95. It would be worth your while to read it. Just put in Seymour Lessans in the search bar at Amazon, and Decline and Fall of All Evil will show up.

No, the eyes have nothing to do with the speed of light and the distance it takes to get from the source to the eye, which is not instant, and cannot be instant.

Light carries information about the source and cannot magically appear ''at the eye'' without travel time.
It's not about light magically appearing at the eye; the wavelength IS at the eye when we look at the object as long as the object is able to be seen due to its brightness and its size and location. Obviously, if it's outside of our field of view, we won't be able to see it; if it is not bright enough, we won't be able to see it; and if it's not large enough or too far away, we won't be able to see it. And, yes, if he is right, distance and time are not involved because light alone is not bringing the image or wavelength through millions of years to us, even though light travels at 186,000 miles a second.
Again you are incorrect.

Wavelength does not appear at the eye, photons appear at the eye.
I think you're nitpicking on purpose. Whether I call it a wavelength or a photon, you get the gist, so stop deflecting, no pun intended.

Yes, wavelengths of light from objects do strike the retina, allowing us to see those objects. When light waves from an object interact with the retina, some wavelengths are absorbed, while others are reflected. Our eyes detect these reflected wavelengths, and our brains interpret these signals as colors, enabling us to perceive the object.
biologyinsights.com

Photons have a wavelength but not in the sense you you probably see it.

The wavelength of a photon is the photons energy set by Planck's Constant. The wavelength of a photon is not the wavelength of a propagating light wave.

My long Term memory seems to be working.

Calculating The Energy of a Photon - Chemistry Steps
A photon's wavelength is inversely proportional to its energy. Shorter wavelengths correspond to higher energy photons, like gamma rays and X-rays, while longer wavelengths correspond to lower energy photons, like radio waves. The wavelength (λ) can be calculated using the formula: λ = hc/E, where h is Planck's constant, c is the speed of light, and E is the photon's energy.
You are in way over your head. You are using terms you do not understand.
None of your explanation as to the energy of a photon changes his premise of real time vision, so what's your point?
 
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
You’re still not getting it. This does not violate physics. Light travels but if he's correct, and the eyes are efferent, not afferent, then the light from the object, regardless of how far away it is, is at the eye the second the object is seen, that is, if it is within the person's field of view. There is no gap between the light at the eye and the object seen, which would violate physics.
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
He is not denying that human behavior is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc. All he is doing is showing that when the conditions of the environment change, and there is economic security and the absence of all authority and control (including government as we know it), the desire to strike a first blow of hurt, at the expense of others, will be eliminated.

That doesn't make sense. There is a gap between the object emitting or reflecting light and the eye that detects that light, which is distance of travel. Given that light has a finite speed, it takes time to travel between the light source and the eye.

That's simply how it works, physics, it's undeniable.
If the eyes were afferent, it would be violating physics because a gap would exist but if the eyes work like he described, there would be no gap. Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor. I hope you try to understand his observations and why he came to this conclusion. It didn’t come out of thin air. I reduced the book to $1.95. It would be worth your while to read it. Just put in Seymour Lessans in the search bar at Amazon, and Decline and Fall of All Evil will show up.

No, the eyes have nothing to do with the speed of light and the distance it takes to get from the source to the eye, which is not instant, and cannot be instant.

Light carries information about the source and cannot magically appear ''at the eye'' without travel time.
It's not about light magically appearing at the eye; the wavelength IS at the eye when we look at the object as long as the object is able to be seen due to its brightness and its size and location. Obviously, if it's outside of our field of view, we won't be able to see it; if it is not bright enough, we won't be able to see it; and if it's not large enough or too far away, we won't be able to see it. And, yes, if he is right, distance and time are not involved because light alone is not bringing the image or wavelength through millions of years to us, even though light travels at 186,000 miles a second.
Again you are incorrect.

Wavelength does not appear at the eye, photons appear at the eye.
I think you're nitpicking on purpose. Whether I call it a wavelength or a photon, you get the gist, so stop deflecting, no pun intended.

Yes, wavelengths of light from objects do strike the retina, allowing us to see those objects. When light waves from an object interact with the retina, some wavelengths are absorbed, while others are reflected. Our eyes detect these reflected wavelengths, and our brains interpret these signals as colors, enabling us to perceive the object.
biologyinsights.com

You realize what you quoted above totally contradicts real-time seeing?

 
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
You’re still not getting it. This does not violate physics. Light travels but if he's correct, and the eyes are efferent, not afferent, then the light from the object, regardless of how far away it is, is at the eye the second the object is seen, that is, if it is within the person's field of view. There is no gap between the light at the eye and the object seen, which would violate physics.
How is instant vision/light at the eye even supposed to work?

It takes time for light to get to the eye and be processed by the brain.
It can't be instant, and even if it was, it does not relate to how humans interact with each other and the world at large.

This so called discovery makes no sense.
You don’t understand that if the brain uses the eye to see the outside world, as a window, this means that the distance of the object is less important than the size and luminosity of the object. You are so convinced it makes no sense that you will not entertain the possibility that he could be right. I don’t think you read his reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion. Seeing in real time does not mean we don’t take what we see and interpret it by our brain, just as we would if the light waves traveled through space/time to reach our eye. Nothing changes in that respect.


No, that's not it. Physics excludes the possibility of instant vision, and human behaviour is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc.
He is not denying that human behavior is driven by countless factors, environment, social values, life experiences, etc. All he is doing is showing that when the conditions of the environment change, and there is economic security and the absence of all authority and control (including government as we know it), the desire to strike a first blow of hurt, at the expense of others, will be eliminated.

That doesn't make sense. There is a gap between the object emitting or reflecting light and the eye that detects that light, which is distance of travel. Given that light has a finite speed, it takes time to travel between the light source and the eye.

That's simply how it works, physics, it's undeniable.
If the eyes were afferent, it would be violating physics because a gap would exist but if the eyes work like he described, there would be no gap. Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor. I hope you try to understand his observations and why he came to this conclusion. It didn’t come out of thin air. I reduced the book to $1.95. It would be worth your while to read it. Just put in Seymour Lessans in the search bar at Amazon, and Decline and Fall of All Evil will show up.

No, the eyes have nothing to do with the speed of light and the distance it takes to get from the source to the eye, which is not instant, and cannot be instant.

Light carries information about the source and cannot magically appear ''at the eye'' without travel time.
It's not about light magically appearing at the eye; the wavelength IS at the eye when we look at the object as long as the object is able to be seen due to its brightness and its size and location. Obviously, if it's outside of our field of view, we won't be able to see it; if it is not bright enough, we won't be able to see it; and if it's not large enough or too far away, we won't be able to see it. And, yes, if he is right, distance and time are not involved because light alone is not bringing the image or wavelength through millions of years to us, even though light travels at 186,000 miles a second.
Again you are incorrect.

Wavelength does not appear at the eye, photons appear at the eye.
I think you're nitpicking on purpose. Whether I call it a wavelength or a photon, you get the gist, so stop deflecting, no pun intended.

Yes, wavelengths of light from objects do strike the retina, allowing us to see those objects. When light waves from an object interact with the retina, some wavelengths are absorbed, while others are reflected. Our eyes detect these reflected wavelengths, and our brains interpret these signals as colors, enabling us to perceive the object.
biologyinsights.com

You realize what you quoted above totally contradicts real-time seeing.
Not at all. That’s what you don’t get. They say the eyes detect and interpret the light based on the object’s reflection and absorption. Lessans says we see the object directly based on the object's reflection and absorption. Light is a medium, for without light, we can see nothing. Lessans says our eyes see the object due to light being at the eye as we view the object which is based on its size, luminosity, and whether it is within our field of view. In both cases, light is at the retina. There’s no gap, no violation of physics, and no change other than the fallacy that we are interpreting the light rather than seeing the object directly with light as a necessary condition for sight. IOW, it is believed that we are seeing the past, whether it is a nanosecond away or ten million light years away. In actuality, we are seeing the present; what is happening right now at this very moment regardless of how far away or close to us an object or event is. I know this feels like blasphemy to you all, but sometimes that's what it takes to get to the truth.

Our scientists, becoming enthralled over the discovery that light travels approximately 186,000 miles a second and taking for granted that five senses were equally scientific, made the statement (which my friend referred to and still exists in our encyclopedias) that if we could sit on the star Rigel with a very powerful telescope focused on the earth, we would just be able to see the ships of Columbus reaching America for the very first time. A former science teacher who taught this to her students as if it were an absolute fact responded, “I am sure Columbus would just be arriving; are you trying to tell me that this is not a scientific fact?”
 
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No, peacegirl, it doesn’t seem like “blasphemy.” :rolleyes: It’s just really stupid and totally wrong, is all.
 
They say follow the science. Science is not a leader. It is an informer. It gives you data.
Not really. Science is both a method for determining what is true; And the body of work that has resulted from that method.

It's been explained to you before, in this very thread:

The problem, as I see it, is the way that science is taught in schools, particularly at the primary school level, which for many (likely most) people in any given community is the only science education they ever get.

See, people have this impression, based on that educational experience, that science is much the same as all the other subjects we study. But it is not. Science is fundamentally different, and most people are never exposed to that fact.

Worse, we use the word "science" in two distinct ways, and this only adds to the confusion. "Science" can mean "The methodology by which we find out about reality"; But it can also mean "The body of information generated by the scientific method"

Education (in the west, at least) started off as a religious activity, and in primary education, this history has an enduring footprint. When teaching children about Christianity, there is a primary reference, the Bible, which is supposedly unquestionable, and which contains the right answers. Even in non-Christian religions, there are fundamentals that are to be accepted without question; And behind it all is the pre-literacy understanding that writing is magic.

If something is written, then it is true. The answer is in the book.

If a teacher and his student are in dispute, they resolve the dispute by refering to the textbook. The book has the right answer. If the book agrees with you, you win the argument.

Science (the methodology) fundamentally rejects this. In science (the methodology), books are just the words of people who are not even present; No dispute can be resolved by direct reference to mere writings. The writings themselves must be tested against reality.

Science (the body of information) is just an attempt to save time and effort. When the methodology has been applied repeatedly to a given question, and has so far always given the same answer, we write the answer in a book and get kids to memorise it, not because it is The TruthTM, but because it would be impossible to get things done if every time we wanted to examine anything, we had to start by demonstrating (yet again) that matter comprises particles of such-and-such a mass, with such-and-such an electric charge, etc., etc.

When I want to know the speed of light in a vacuum, I look it up in a book. Not because the books are never wrong, but because I have decided to provisionally trust the existing science (the body of information), as a time saving shortcut. If I had any inkling of a doubt, I could, should, and would reject what is written, and go test for myself using science (the methodology) to find the speed of light in a vacuum.

Disputes in science (the methodology), regarding what is a part of science (the body of information) are resolved by reference to reality - we devise and conduct experiments to test hypotheses, and these experiments belong, not to a priestly class, nor to a teacher who has control of the textbook, nor to a Board of Education who decide which books are textbooks and which are not, but to anyone who wants to conduct them.

Science (the methodology), unlike any other educational discipline, is ruthlessly egalitarian. Anyone can overturn science (the body of work) by coming up with a test that anyone else can repeat, and which reliably demonstrates (a part of) that body of work to be false.

But (at primary school) we teach science (the body of work) the way we teach religion; And we don't teach the methodology part at all, or if we do, we treat it as though it were just another rule to be memorised and regurgitated without question.

Kids are left with the impression that science (the body of information) is just another set of beliefs. And as we see from the massive diversity of sects just within one major branch of one religion, this implies that anyone can just make up any old rubbish they like, and then set about collecting disciples, adherents, and evangelists to believe it and spread the word. The criteria for success are having as many adherents as possible; Having evangelical zeal, to accrue still more adherents to your position; And most importantly of all, having a book.

Science (the body of information) is taught this way in schools. So it's hardly surprising that so much pseudoscience arises amongst those with limited exposure to science as a methodology, rather than as a body of information.

This fundamental failure to grasp what science (the methodology) is, or how science (the body of information) came to be, and how it can be (and constantly is) changed as new observations are made and new experiments carried out, is at the root of the problem here.

We can talk about free will, eyes as sense organs, how light works, etc., etc., until the cows freeze over, and it won't change a thing - because peacegirl is not on the same page as the rest of us. Peacegirl doesn't understand that science differs in any important way from theology, and so is determined to win her argument on the basis of theological rhetoric. She has a new book, and wants it to replace, or supplement, the old book. Because she thinks that's how knowledge works.

She does not, and perhaps cannot, grasp that the science books we use are not books of power, but are mere aide-mémoires that tally the current state of the game.

Replacing Newton's Optiks, or Einstein's General Relativity, or Maxwell's Electromagnetic Equations, with a new book of wondrous claims is not only difficult; It is futile. No part of science (the methodology) is beholden to books of science (the body of information); Unlike in literally every other educational discipline*, in science the relationship is reversed.

The body of work derives from, and is entirely subservient to, the methodology. You can subvert a church by replacing its Bible with a new work (a Koran, or a Book of Mormon, or the scribblings of L. Ron Hubbard, or of Lessans, or of anyone). But you can only subvert science (the body of information) by following the scientific method - and if a change is shown by that method to be required, the science books are all rendered obsolete at a stroke. There are no sects or splinter groups - only people who have abandoned the scientific methodology, and thereby rendered themselves irrelevant.

The methodology is simple. Hypotheses, rigorously tested against repeatable and universally testable observations, and those shown to be false, discarded.

If you want to change science (the body of information) it is simple (but not easy): Just detail an observation that anyone else can make for themselves, which demonstrates that a part of that body of information is false.

Be aware that trust is not a part of science (the methodology). No scientist trusts anyone, particularly not himself.

The question is not "should we trust Newton, or should we trust Lessans?". The question is "Which of these two has given us the details needed to repeat his work, and surprise ourselves into agreeing with his answers, starting from a provisional assumption that his answers are bullshit?"

Newton has done that. You don't need to take his word for anything, and he doesn't ask you to; He has provided a detailed set of procedures for proving him wrong, and invites you to give it your best shot, either using his procedure, or coming up with your own. That, right there, is science.







* The very word 'discipline', meaning 'a field of study', carries the historical baggage of the idea that one learns by rote, from infallible books, whereby error arises only from incorrect reading or interpretation of the sacred text. Science ain't like that, but primary education usually acts as though it were.
Lessans never ever ever ever said take his word for it; he only asked that people don't immediately jump to premature conclusions before hearing him out. Lessans did follow science by his astute observations and his careful reading of philosophy and literature, which he never thought would lead him to making a discovery. It came about by accident, sort of, when he had an epiphany in a dream, after reading Durant's book, Mansion's of Philosophy, that told him Durant was wrong and Spinoza was right; that the answer to all evil (hurt) plaguing mankind is found behind the door of determinism. He may not have followed the exact path you expect someone to follow, because he wasn't trying to discover anything, therefore it should not cause you to ignore his findings before checking them out. I'm still rather shocked that the philosophers of this caliber are so quick to throw his findings out before understanding what they are. :shock:
 
Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor.
Speed is distance divided by time. Distance is therefore always and unavoidably a factor when speed is involved.

The quoted sentence is proven to be nonsense, by contradiction. Did I mention that, unlike science, you can actually prove things in mathematics? This is one of those things; distance is proven to always be a factor when something has speed as an attribute.
 
Lessans never ever ever ever said take his word for it; he only asked that people don't immediately jump to premature conclusions before hearing him out.
While you are determined that anyone who ever reaches a conclusion that disagrees with him must not have heard him out.

You appear incapable of understanding that people have heard him out, and still think he is wrong in obvious and clearly demonstrable ways.
 
Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor.
Speed is distance divided by time. Distance is therefore always and unavoidably a factor when speed is involved.

The quoted sentence is proven to be nonsense, by contradiction. Did I mention that, unlike science, you can actually prove things in mathematics? This is one of those things; distance is proven to always be a factor when something has speed as an attribute.
It was not a contradiction if you understand that the eyes work completely opposite of how science thinks they work. Speed is a factor when distance and time are involved, that is true, but when it comes to vision (if he is right), then speed and distance don't play a part. You're not listening bilby. He was a math whiz, FYI. He figured out math problems that math professors could not.
 
Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor.
Speed is distance divided by time. Distance is therefore always and unavoidably a factor when speed is involved.

The quoted sentence is proven to be nonsense, by contradiction. Did I mention that, unlike science, you can actually prove things in mathematics? This is one of those things; distance is proven to always be a factor when something has speed as an attribute.
It was not a contradiction if you understand that the eyes work completely opposite of how science thinks they work.

No, they don’t.
 
Lessans never ever ever ever said take his word for it; he only asked that people don't immediately jump to premature conclusions before hearing him out.
While you are determined that anyone who ever reaches a conclusion that disagrees with him must not have heard him out.

You appear incapable of understanding that people have heard him out, and still think he is wrong in obvious and clearly demonstrable ways.
What a joke. No one has even come close to understanding his discovery. They don't even know what it is: they think it's that man's will is not free, which is not the discovery. They have no idea how this knowledge can change the world for the better once it is confirmed by science to be valid and sound, and the transition from a "blame filled" environment to a "no blame filled" environment, can begin. Imagine everything being privatized. No more government as we know it. No more Trumps or Bidens or dictators to control us, yet a world that is much safer because no one would desire to take advantage of others under the new conditions. Even if you don't believe it's possible, to just pooh pooh it is being very short-sighted and preventing the very thing you and all of us want.
 
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Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor.
Speed is distance divided by time. Distance is therefore always and unavoidably a factor when speed is involved.

The quoted sentence is proven to be nonsense, by contradiction. Did I mention that, unlike science, you can actually prove things in mathematics? This is one of those things; distance is proven to always be a factor when something has speed as an attribute.
It was not a contradiction if you understand that the eyes work completely opposite of how science thinks they work.

No, they don’t.
I don't think you even remember what his observations were. It's not the eyes that work differently than what the Lone Ranger described. It's how the brain and eyes work together that has caused confusion due to the belief that the light is transduced and then interpreted by the brain as images.
 
Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor.
Speed is distance divided by time. Distance is therefore always and unavoidably a factor when speed is involved.

The quoted sentence is proven to be nonsense, by contradiction. Did I mention that, unlike science, you can actually prove things in mathematics? This is one of those things; distance is proven to always be a factor when something has speed as an attribute.
It was not a contradiction if you understand that the eyes work completely opposite of how science thinks they work.

No, they don’t.
I don't think you even remember what his observations were. It's not the eyes that work differently than what the Lone Ranger described. It's how the brain and eyes work together that has caused confusion due to the belief that the light is transduced and then interpreted by the brain as images.
Because the eyes work exactly as the Lone Ranger described, Lessans was wrong.
 
It was not a contradiction if you understand that the eyes work completely opposite of how science thinks they work.
It IS a contradiction, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with eyes; Just speed, distance and time. Note that you and I don't mention eyes or sight at all; They are not relevant in any way to the fact that you have contradicted yourself.

Check it out. No mention of eyes, or of sight. Just you making an impossible and contradictory claim, and me showing proof of its impossibility:
Light still travels at a finite speed but in this account, distance is not a factor.
Speed is distance divided by time. Distance is therefore always and unavoidably a factor when speed is involved.

The quoted sentence is proven to be nonsense, by contradiction. Did I mention that, unlike science, you can actually prove things in mathematics? This is one of those things; distance is proven to always be a factor when something has speed as an attribute.
 
There is no possible way for the eyes and brain to “work together” to enable instantaneous seeing. To see, light must be at the eye, and that takes varying amounts of time depending on distance.
 
to just pooh pooh it is being very short-sighted and preventing the very thing you and all of us want.
What you, I or anyone else wants has exactly zero influence on what is.

You don't have to like that. It will remain true forever, whether you like it or not.

Most people work this out at around the age of five. Some never work it out, and waste their lives in pursuit of the impossible. They might call it magic, or religion, or alchemy, or The Secret, or spiritualism, or building a perpetual motion machine, or anything else; It remains impossible no matter how hard they believe.

Reality is real. The only way to find out about reality is to study it carefully. Trying to impose upon reality any idea that comes from imagination rather than from careful observation is utterly futile.

Grow up.
 
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