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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Has anyone noticed that this world is not doing well? Can anyone say this world is better off than worse? The more we use military might, the more dangerous the world has become. Can anyone disagree with this?

Does it even matter who becomes President when conflict will continue due to problems that cannot be resolved with either candidate? It behooves the pundits to see if there is anything that could possibly help change the trajectory of where our world is headed, even if they are skeptical to the degree that they refuse to even listen?
 
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,,, until I can reach someone who is well-respected who can give this work the stamp of truth …
There are no “well-respected” people who give the “stamp of truth” to anything. :rolleyes:
There are ways to prove that this discovery is valid and sound. This idea that there are no answers because nothing can be proven true, is absolutely false.
 
He believes so strongly in compatibilism that even when I say that the belief in free will (any kind) is actually preventing the very thing all of us want, peace on earth, it doesn't move him.
Well, that just shows his ability (and your inability) to recognise an argument from consequences fallacy.

Whether or not compatibilism would prevent peace on Earth, has exactly zero bearing on whether compatibilism is true.

"If we believe the law of gravity, then falling is often deadly. Therefore we should not believe in gravity, in order to eliminate deaths from falls". Can you see the basic flaw in this logic? Can you see that it is structurally identical to the argument you just made?
 
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This has been going on for years bilby. You have no idea how he hurt me in his jest on the FF forum.
That is of no relevance to my argument, nor of any interest to me. He is not in any way influencing my position, and his history of posting on another forum, of which I am not a member or reader, physically cannot influence my position, even if he wanted it to.
 
He believes so strongly in compatibilism that even when I say that the belief in free will (any kind) is actually preventing the very thing all of us want, peace on earth, it doesn't move him.
Well, that just shows his ability (and your inability) to recognise an argument from consequences fallacy.

Whether or not compatibilism would prevent peace on Earth, has exactly zero bearing on whether compatibilism is true.

"If we believe the law of gravity, then falling is often deadly. Therefore we should not believe in gravity, in order to eliminate deaths from falls". Can you see the basic flaw in this logic? Can you see that it is structurally identical to the argument yiu just made?

I actually skipped over that comment of hers that you quoted. Amazingly silly. Your gravity analogy is spot on, to use one of her fave expressions.
 
He demonstrated what is actually happening with the eyes when he showed children learning words. He also showed why this matters.
He didn't "show" anything; He claimed lots of things.

I just "showed" that there is a way to eliminate deaths from falls. But there actually isn't.
 
This has been going on for years bilby. You have no idea how he hurt me in his jest on the FF forum.
That is of no relevance to my argument, nor of any interest to me. He is not in any way influencing my position, and his history of posting on another forum, of which I am not a member or reader, physically cannot influence my position, even if he wanted it to.

On every forum she has toured, sooner or later peacegirl accuses literally everyone of “ruining it” for everyone else. She thinks accepting arguments is a matter of prestige, and if a popular poster endorses an idea, all the others on the board will fall in behind it like good sheeple. :rolleyes:
 
Has anyone noticed that this world is not doing well? Can anyone say this world is better off than worse? The more we use military might, the more dangerous the world has become. Can anyone disagree with this?
This pitch has been used to sell religions and false beliefs since forever. The Jehovas Witnesses use almost the exact same pitch to try to get a (literal) foot in the door.

It's a strong indicator that what follows will be bunkum; I therefore advise that you stop using it if you want people to actually hear you out.
 
Competing interests, business and profit over environment and ecosystems, waste, plastics, etc, will have to be resolved before it is resolved for us in a way that we may not want.
 
He believes so strongly in compatibilism that even when I say that the belief in free will (any kind) is actually preventing the very thing all of us want, peace on earth, it doesn't move him.
Well, that just shows his ability (and your inability) to recognise an argument from consequences fallacy.

Whether or not compatibilism would prevent peace on Earth, has exactly zero bearing on whether compatibilism is true.

"If we believe the law of gravity, then falling is often deadly. Therefore we should not believe in gravity, in order to eliminate deaths from falls". Can you see the basic flaw in this logic? Can you see that it is structurally identical to the argument you just made?
The belief in free will (of any kind) is preventing peace from prevailing because it is keeping our present criminal justice system in place. This is not analogous to the law of gravity. Gravity is real; it's an attribute of planet Earth. Not so with free will, although it has been a necessary belief until now in order to make the criminal pay for his wrongdoing and to be used as a deterrent for others. This is the reason why we had to believe in free will, for how could we punish people if we knew they had no choice?

In the beginning of creation when man was in the early stages of development, he could have destroyed himself were there no forces to control his nature. Religion came to the rescue by helping explain the reason for such evil in the world. It gave those who had faith a sense of comfort, hope, and the fortitude to go on living. In spite of everything, it was a bright light in the story of civilization. However, to reach this stage of development so God could reveal Himself to all mankind by performing this deliverance from evil, it was absolutely necessary to get man to believe his will was free, and he believed in this theory consciously or unconsciously. It became a dogma, a dogmatic doctrine of all religion, was the cornerstone of all civilization, and the only reason man was able to develop. The belief in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil for not only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his problems without blame and punishment which required the justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience. Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did because he was endowed with a special faculty which allowed him to choose between good and evil. In other words, if you were called upon to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you do it if you knew his will was not free? To punish him in any way you would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative than the one for which he was being judged; that he was not compelled by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but to think this way, and that is why our civilization developed the principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,’ and why my discovery was never found. No one could ever get beyond this point because if man’s will is not free, it becomes absolutely impossible to hold him responsible for anything he does. Well, is it any wonder the solution was never found if it lies beyond this point? How is it possible not to blame people for committing murder, rape, for stealing and the wholesale slaughter of millions? Does this mean that we are supposed to condone these evils, and wouldn’t man become even less responsible if there were no laws of punishment to control his nature? Doesn’t our history show that if something is desired badly enough, he will go to any lengths to satisfy himself, even pounce down on other nations with talons or tons of steel? What is it that prevents the poor from walking into stores and taking what they need if not the fear of punishment? The belief that will is not free strikes at the very heart of our present civilization. Right at this point lies the crux of a problem so difficult of solution that it has kept free will in power since time immemorial.
 
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Has anyone noticed that this world is not doing well? Can anyone say this world is better off than worse? The more we use military might, the more dangerous the world has become. Can anyone disagree with this?

This pitch has been used to sell religions and false beliefs since forever. The Jehovas Witnesses use almost the exact same pitch to try to get a (literal) foot in the door.

It's a strong indicator that what follows will be bunkum; I therefore advise that you stop using it if you want people to actually hear you out.
I have not been using a pitch just to get people to believe. I am not a fundamentalist bilby. I have been giving evidence, but it appears no one has read, understood, or had any pertinent questions. They just balk and tell me I'm wrong. I have explained why man's will is not free. Do you understand his observations and his reasoning therefrom?
He demonstrated what is actually happening with the eyes when he showed children learning words. He also showed why this matters.
He didn't "show" anything; He claimed lots of things.
He didn't just claim a lot of things. He gave an explanation for his claims.
I just "showed" that there is a way to eliminate deaths from falls. But there actually isn't.
That is true when it comes to gravity, but it is not true when it comes to free will. There is a way to eliminate war and crime once the truth of determinism is confirmed by science. Determinism is comparable to gravity in the sense that just as we cannot help but fall due to gravity, we cannot help but refrain from hurting others due to determinism, which is our true nature.
 
There is a way to eliminate war and crime once the truth of determinism is confirmed by science.
Then we are shit out of luck, because confirming things is not one of the capabilities of the scientific method.

Anything is possible, when you don't understand how anything works.
 
There is a way to eliminate war and crime once the truth of determinism is confirmed by science.
Then we are shit out of luck, because confirming things is not one of the capabilities of the scientific method.
There are ways to confirm things or scientists wouldn't be trying to do just that. It’s true they could get things wrong such as the belief the eyes work like the other four senses, but there are many things they’ve gotten right.
Anything is possible, when you don't understand how anything works.
I never said anything is possible. We know that’s not true but that certainly doesn’t mean that there aren’t things that ARE possible.
 
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Has anyone noticed that this world is not doing well? Can anyone say this world is better off than worse? The more we use military might, the more dangerous the world has become. Can anyone disagree with this?

This pitch has been used to sell religions and false beliefs since forever. The Jehovas Witnesses use almost the exact same pitch to try to get a (literal) foot in the door.

It's a strong indicator that what follows will be bunkum; I therefore advise that you stop using it if you want people to actually hear you out.
I have not been using a pitch just to get people to believe. I am not a fundamentalist bilby. I have been giving evidence, but it appears no one has read, understood, or had any pertinent questions.

That is because you have not given a shred of evidence for anything.

The determinism claim is not scientific, it is a philosophic position. As to light and sight, the author is simply wrong. There is an avalanche of evidence for the standard view on how light and sight work, and less than zero evidence for your author’s claims. Indeed, they are just daft claims, because he offers no MECHANISM for how the eyes are supposed to work under his nutty scenario. Stuff like “we see, when something is big enough and bright enough to be seen,” is not an explanatory mechanism. You were schooled on this many times at FF and other boards as well.

 
There is a way to eliminate war and crime once the truth of determinism is confirmed by science.
Then we are shit out of luck, because confirming things is not one of the capabilities of the scientific method.
There are ways to confirm things or scientists wouldn't be trying to do just that.
Why do you think that "scientists" are trying to do that? Have you asked them?

Science is a technique for ruling ideas out. It doesn't confirm anything, except "Yes, I really was wrong".
It’s true they could get things wrong
Everyone always gets things wrong. "Scientists" are not special people who never make errors (and nor are autodidactic authors of bizarre and easily disproven claims about vision).
such as the belief the eyes work like the other four senses
Literally nobody believes this. Not only is the idea that the senses number 5 a gross error; But none of the senses work like the others - or they would be the same sense.

The sense of touch works the same way in the fingers as in the toes, so we don't say we have a sense of "finger touch", and another of "toe touch"; We just say we sense "touch".
, but there are many things they’ve gotten right.
No, just things they haven't found the wrong parts of, yet. Much of it might be correct, but it will never be confirmed. Nust rendered ever more plausible by our failure to prove it to be false.
Anything is possible, when you don't understand how anything works.
I never said anything is possible.
I never said you did.
We know that’s not true but that certainly doesn’t mean that there aren’t things that ARE possible.
And that certainly doesn't mean that a particular thing you want to be possible, actually is.
 
I don't mean to offend you peacegirl but the bits that I've read from your posts don't make a lot of sense, even if you mean well.. It sort of reminds me of some of the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. They believed that by the year 2000, we would enter the so called lesser peace. That didn't happen, did it? The next belief is that we would experience years of turmoil and then eventually, the entire world would become Baha'is and we would enter "The Most Great Peace", a time when wars would end, racial and gender equality would exist and life would be happy for all. These are just lovely fairy tales and in my not well educated opinion regarding philosophy, the idea that accepting we have no free will is somehow going to lead the world to some happy peaceful state makes about as much sense as the religion of my ex husband that I just mentioned. Sadly, he was obsessed with his religion. I guess it was determined to be that we divorced and I found a better partner who is an atheist.

I sometimes vacillate between hard and soft determinism personally, but to be brutally honest, It's not important to me, which one is correct. I simply think that our behavior is all the result of our genetic and environmental influences and new influences can sometimes change us.

But, the only good thing about believing that we have little or no free will, imo, is that is makes it easier not to be judgmental. One of the first things I was taught when I started studying to be an RN, was not to judge my patients, but to treat them all with the same compassion and quality of care. I did my best to do that for 42 years. It helped me to be more compassionate by not judging my patients, even though some could be mean and/or difficult to deal with. I'll spare you examples. :)

And, here's the thing, we evolved from the great apes, and they are often violent warriors with the exception of the matriarchal bonobos. But, even bonobos will be violent in some circumstances. They just usually use sex as a way to avoid conflict. Considering that we have little or no free will and that we evolved to be violent animals in some given circumstances, how on earth is accepting that we have no free will going to lead us to a better world? I didn't read all of your walls of texts as this is a place to discuss things, not a place to read a book that someone likes. Perhaps I missed your point, but that is the impression I got from what I have read. We can't change who we are as a species. Each one of us, who has good moral values can perhaps do some volunteer work, try to treat others well, avoid conflict, and sometimes even be a positive influence on others. But there have always been wars, violence, hatred etc. and sadly, as long as our species exists, there will be to some extent. Considering how we have a tendency to destroy our own habitat, now at a very fast rate, I do wonder how long our species might even exist, if we continue doing damage to our habitat at the current rate. ( No, I don't want to discuss that here )

The part about god in a recent post, sounds like gibberish to me. I assume you copied that from the author of your book. No?

Btw, I do agree that our justice system is a mess. I don't support the death penalty and I think prisons should be humane places that offer the opportunity for rehab, although a psychopath isn't going to be capable of changing, unless we discover some treatment for that brain disorder of the frontal cortex. You will never get enough humans to agree on that. The concept of free will is ingrained in most humans and very few are interested in having a discussion about it.

I'm not judging you, but I think you could accomplish more by volunteering in a school, or some other way where you could be a positive influence on a number of people who need help, instead of trying to convince people here that your favorite book will solve the world's problems. Your'e wasting your time. I'm retired and I have lots of time to waste. :giggle:
 
Has anyone noticed that this world is not doing well? Can anyone say this world is better off than worse? The more we use military might, the more dangerous the world has become. Can anyone disagree with this?

This pitch has been used to sell religions and false beliefs since forever. The Jehovas Witnesses use almost the exact same pitch to try to get a (literal) foot in the door.

It's a strong indicator that what follows will be bunkum; I therefore advise that you stop using it if you want people to actually hear you out.
I have not been using a pitch just to get people to believe. I am not a fundamentalist bilby. I have been giving evidence, but it appears no one has read, understood, or had any pertinent questions.

That is because you have not given a shred of evidence for anything.

The determinism claim is not scientific, it is a philosophic position.
Absolutely incorrect.
As to light and sight, the author is simply wrong. There is an avalanche of evidence for the standard view on how light and sight work, and less than zero evidence for your author’s claims.
There is an avalanche of evidence as to how light works, but they got confused regarding the eyes. You have to understand what he demonstrated. I don't think you have. Here's your thinking: How dare he say that science wasn't right about something that has been accepted as fact for so long. You need more than that to prove him wrong.

Indeed, they are just daft claims, because he offers no MECHANISM for how the eyes are supposed to work under his nutty scenario. Stuff like “we see, when something is big enough and bright enough to be seen,” is not an explanatory mechanism. You were schooled on this many times at FF and other boards as well.
That was not his proof. In fact, he didn't even have this in all of his books but he did have his claim that the eyes and brain don't function like the other four senses. I refuse to listen to you Pood. You don't understand his evidence, or you have a block (I'm not sure which) as to why man's will is not free and why the eyes don't function like the other four senses. If you could, you would point out exactly where he was wrong, but all you do is keep saying that he was wrong over and over with no explanation as to why.
 
Here's your thinking: How dare he say that science wasn't right about something that has been accepted as fact for so long. You need more than that to prove him wrong.

Another ad hom to report when I find the time.

Indeed, they are just daft claims, because he offers no MECHANISM for how the eyes are supposed to work under his nutty scenario. Stuff like “we see, when something is big enough and bright enough to be seen,” is not an explanatory mechanism. You were schooled on this many times at FF and other boards as well.
That was not his proof. In fact, he didn't even have this in all of his books but he did have his claim that the eyes and brain don't function like the other four senses. I refuse to listen to you Pood. You don't understand his evidence, or you have a block (I'm not sure which) as to why man's will is not free and why the eyes don't function like the other four senses. If you could, you would point out exactly where he was wrong, but all you do is keep saying that he was wrong over and over with no explanation as to why.

All of the above is ad hominem as well. And yes, I and many others have repeatedly pointed out exactly where he was wrong. At FF, The Lone Ranger, an evolutionary biologist, wrote you a detailed, illustrated 33-page essay that discussed the eyes down the molecular level. You admitted that your refused to read it.
 
And, when we showed you how the theory of relativity makes real-time seeing impossible, you rejected that theory.
 
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