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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Woe is me. I slaved for years reading and studying making the most important recovery of our times and nobody will listen. Psychology and psychiatry have got it all wrong.

Woe is me, I alone can can save the world and nobody will listen.
 
Isn't it true that at one time people believed the earth was flat?
Not really; Most people didn't think about it at all until the Greek geometers got started on it (and for that matter most people didn't think about it after that, either).

There are likely more flat-Earth believers today than at any time in the past.

It's a cliché; Belief that the Earth is flat is the stereotype of belief in nonsense generally.

Going to a university to try to wow the professors with the news that the Earth is not flat, at any time in history, would have met not with disbelief in what you are saying, but rather with astonishment that you thought it was somehow a new or radical idea.

Rather like telling a post-Enlightenment biologist that there are not five senses.
So please help me to find these post-enlightenment biologists. You say they exist, so you must know where to look. Again, the fact that we have four senses and a pair of eyes was not of importance to him. What lies behind this knowledge had great importance to him because it changes how we see reality and how we see each other.
 
I never heard that professors are already aware that man doesn't have five senses.
That there are many things of which you have never heard may come as a surprise to you, but it really shouldn't.
Can you point me to any information you can find? According to what people are taught, we have five senses. It would be nice to know that he was not alone.
Can you use Google?

Humans have an estimated 22 to 33 different senses, depending on how sense are defied.

If you use Google, you can also discover that the eye is a sense organ, and that if God turned on the sun at noon, we would see it eight minutes later.
 
Going to a university to try to wow the professors with the news that the Earth is not flat, at any time in history, would have met not with disbelief in what you are saying, but rather with astonishment that you thought it was somehow a new or radical idea.
Even if it were not known that the Earth was round, a scientists' reaction would still be skeptical but honest consideration of a new claim, not knee-jerk rejection. A relevant example from recent history might be the revelation of the shape of the earth: not a perfect sphere but an oblate spheroid slightly bulging at the equator. This was worked out gradually over the last four centuries, and although religious objections circulated, it was only ever an issue of mild controversy among scientists. The math was there. The observations were there. A model was developed. The model was tested. We now have a plurality of empirical confirmations of the model. Most citizens of the globe don't realize there was ever such a conversation, but happily enjoy the technologies that the improved model made possible. This is how the sciences work. Not very dramatic process usually, but a very functional one over the long term.
I agree totally.
The idea that man has five senses originated with Aristotle, and it has never been challenged.
It has literally been challenged for over three hundred years, and is no longer considered to be true by anyone who has a passing knowledge of biology. Even a century ago, this statement would have been known by any serious student of biology to be flat-out false.
That may be true, but not for the reasons he gave.
Yup. Lots of things are true, and very few are true for reasons given by Lessans.
Now you are doing exactly what you are telling me not to do.
It needs to be revisited based on his observations. No one has adequately answered his question as to why, if the image is traveling to the eye, can't dogs recognize their master in human form or on a computer, a statue, a picture, a cardboard replica, or anything else, without other cues such as gait, sound, or smell.
The adequate answer is that the question is flawed, and assumes a false premise.

Dogs CAN recognise their masters by sight alone.
It has not been proven bilby. Wasn't it you with your dogs at the gas station acting excited when they saw you? Are you kidding me? Do you actually believe this was a fair account to prove that dogs can recognize individual faces?
Don't tell me Pood answered this. In FF they tried to use an experiment with a lever that was poorly designed.
I don't care; I have dogs, so I already have access to and experience of hundreds of observations. I need no further experiment.

If you do, you will need to go make observations for yourself. But first you will need to learn to be rigorous and accurate, or you will just fool yourself into confirmation bias.
Dogs can probably be trained to recognize patterns and get rewarded, but this was not true recognition.
That's the No True Scotsman fallacy. See, I told you you needed to learn rigour and accuracy.
Show me. If a dog is able to identify an object from a word (like in the case of Chase the dog that could understand many words), then he has been able to photograph that word/picture relationship. But when it comes to small details (such as faces), without other cues like sound and smell, no one has been able to show that dogs can recognize this way. If they can, I'd like to see it but not with poorly designed experiments. That said, I'm not going to defend something that is shown to be wrong in a conclusive manner.
Pood even thinks bees can recognize faces. :realitycheck:
They appear to be able to, though as I have not kept bees myself, I don't know for sure. Certainly the idea that they can is not at odds with anything I do know about bees, so I have no sound reason to doubt it.
That's not good enough. Not doubting is like saying it sounds possible. What happened to the evidence? Did it just fly out the window? Let Pood show the evidence that bees, in a different environment (to avoid anything that would give them clues), would be able to recognize the faces of their beekeepers.
 
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...and yet, here you are 1,700 posts into the thread, still trying to explain the unexplainable.

"I feel that if a person has problems communicating, the very least that he could do is shut up" - Tom Lehrer
When someone has something of extreme value to offer, they will scream it from the mountaintops! :cheer:
Sure. But that will also happen if they have nonsense to offer, but have convinced themselves that it is valuable.

So, we need other means to determine what is true than the mere persistence of evangelists.
Just because he knew he had made a discovery and he also knew it could change our world for the better did not make him an evangelist, although it is good news, just not the good news of Christianity. 🫢

When theologians fully realize that not only were they teaching something false and that God’s will, the truth, was hidden behind a different door, but that their standard of living will be permanently guaranteed even though they step down from the pulpit, we will very quickly get their cooperation in attaining this sonic boom. They will strongly desire to spread word of the new gospel that will soon put an end to all evil, even if this puts them out of business. Although we must enter this new world of our own free will because no force will be used, the comparison of what we now have with what is now possible gives us no choice because our will is not free to move against what we believe is better for ourselves. This will compel us to desire studying for the examination (which will only require the very basic understanding of these principles) so we can become citizens as quickly as possible after the transition has been officially launched.
 
Indeterminism does not negate causality.

“The reason we can’t predict the outcome of a quantum measurement,” she explains, “is that we are missing information,” that is, hidden variables. Superdeterminism, she notes, gets rid of the measurement problem and nonlocality as well as randomness. Hidden variables determine in advance how physicists carry out the experiments; physicists might think they are choosing one option over another, but they aren’t. Hossenfelder calls free will “logically incoherent nonsense.”

That is speculation, at this time it is not knowable.

Looking at all of science my conclusion is we have no idea what the reality is that we are immersed in.

You can b find scientific opinions to support most any subjective view.

I know QM models work from what I did for work. Whether the QM models actually reflect reality is not knowable.

We have no metric or absolute point of reference from which to deduce we have discovered everything.

So in turn there is no way of determining if determinism is true or false.
You're wrong. Man does not have free will and it's been proven.
All things in science come down to a measurement. Measurements come down to points of reference. System International defines all units of measure which are based on how the meter, kilogram, and seconds are defined.
On a macro level, theories about QM do not prove free will in sentient beings. No matter what can be learned from QM cannot prove free will true because we can't go back in time to prove this, so not only can free will not be proved true but determinism, as the opposite of free will, cannot be proved false. It is a fact that man can only move in one direction, which means that once a decision is made, it could not have been otherwise.
 
And anyone foolishly inclined to do so is probably still wading through Dianetics.
Or Aristotle. Actually that’s not quite fair, but couldn’t resist. We read and laud him for being one of the early thinkers to at least try to think clearly and consistently about the world, and about how it works and why that is. Given their lack of a knowledge base, we wouldn’t expect the early Greeks to get things right, but some of them, including Aristotle, had decent insights. But no, contra the author, scientists do not believe what they do because Aristotle said so. Quite the opposite.

So I shouldn’t have tried to share this knowledge, according to you.
Pretty much. You should have recognised that it's not in a fit state for publication, if you want it to be taken seriously.
Put yourself in my position for one second and you will have a little sympathy.
I have the greatest of sympathy for you. It's not easy being a Dunning-Kruger victim.
He never had a chance in his lifetime because he was not in academia.
No, he never had a chance because he didn't understand what academia is. It's not an old boy's club, it's a barely controlled brawl, in which only the strongest and best ideas have a hope of survival.
Thus discovery is still not recognized not because it’s vapid but because I cannot reach true academicians who would take this book seriously and study it like other philosophers have been studied. That’s not asking too much
Yes, it is.

A soldier who has fought bravely against almost impossible odds gets awarded medals, and when other soldiers see those medals, they give that soldier deep respect. But it would be a terrible mistake to just buy some medals in a junkshop, and wear them expecting to get the same respect.

It's not the medals that are respectable; It's the battle that they represent.

In the same way, an academic might be called Doctor or Professor, or have a string of letters after his name, and you might see that he is deeply respected by other academics as a consequence.

But it's not the honorifics that get him the respect; It's the intellectual hardships, conflicts, criticisms, and attacks that they represent.

If you turn up demanding respect, having never done the hard fighting needed to defend your ideas, and then, when challenged to prove your right to that respect, by defending the ideas you rode in on you try to hide behind demands for respect, instead of standing up and doing battle for your claims, reasoning, and ideas, then you are going to have a rough time of it.

Asking to be taken seriously abd treated with respect in academia, without first fighting for your ideas and winning, is just like turning up at the veterans dinner wearing a Military Cross you found in a junkshop.

IMO the best thing she could do, though she won’t is scrap the inanities like the eye is not a sense organ and God and the sun and all that, and focus one those claims which may be promising and have merit, several of which have been cited. She could then claim the final product as a joint.work of her and Lessans.
I won't change his words and his claims. I don't have the wherewithal to even begin to change things around, even if I wanted so. People can read the book and take what they like and leave the rest. The knowledge is helpful, even in this world. It could actually save marriages and keep families together.

I know you won’t, but any educated person who reads that the eye is not a sense organ and that if God turned on the sun at noon we would see it instantly, even though it takes the light from the sun some eight minutes to arrive at the eye, will drop the book like a hot potato. Those claims are false and the latter is both physically and logically impossible.
You're wrong Pood. This is not like a car that is going from A to B and can't teleport to B without driving there. You just don't get the concept because you are seeing it from a perspective that can only mean it would be wrong, but you're failing because you're not looking at it from the perspective Lessans was trying to impart. Efferent vision is the very opposite of afferent vision, but you will never get it unless someone else in science gets it, not you.
 
A lot of well meaning people try to change the world for the better, and their work may be worthwhile, indispensable even, yet here we are in a world in crisis, needless suffering, inequality, war, ecosystems in decline.....
Lots of people think they had the solution, but this one can prevent needless suffering, inequality, war, which will open up the ability to stop the environmental destruction. This one really is the gem, not because he was my father but because of extending the principles. Understandably, people are skeptical and will continue to be skeptical until they understand why man's will is not free and why the eyes are not a sense organ. He did describe how we are conditioned to seeing what really isn't imbedded in light. No light is traveling with beauty and ugliness in them, yet this conditioning makes it appear that beauty and ugliness are part of the real world. We become conditioned due to words that lie to us, and there's no escape from this unless the words that are attached to certain features that condition us to seeing with our very eyes that some people are more beautiful or ugly than others, are removed from our dictionaries. Scientists and philosophers don't want to hear an outsider debating the creme de la creme in their particular field. They resent him highly. I'm only asking people to take the time to study the book and not compare it to others who meant well but didn't have the answer. We are in a crisis on many fronts. This should at least give people a pause before they jump to premature conclusions.



The issue of how we view the world, our attitude and how we respond has nothing to do with the speed of light or how our eyes work, but a host of other factors such as life experience and social conditioning, where what may have been good and moral for an ancient Roman or Aztec is not acceptable in this day and age


"Social conditioning is the sociological process of training individuals in a society to respond in a manner generally approved by the society in general and peer groups within society.

The concept is stronger than that of socialization, which is the process of inheriting norms, customs and ideologies.

Manifestations of social conditioning are vast, but they are generally categorized as social patterns and social structures including nationalism, education, employment, entertainment, popular culture, religion, spirituality and family life. The social structure in which an individual finds him or herself influences and can determine their social actions and responses."

A baby not recognising objects in the world around them is not the same as literally not seeing these things.
How can a baby recognize objects in the world around him when he cannot focus his eyes after birth? Light is present but nothing is traveling in the light to allow the baby to recognize anything. That's what makes the eyes different from the other senses because their other senses are in full working order at birth.

The distinction is between seeing and recognising. You may see something but not recognise what you are seeing.

The brain and senses of a baby are gathering information about the world and learning to make sense of it.
 
I have been thinking more about Krishnamurti since his name was brought up, and also started a thread about him. It seems this passage some commonalities with the author’s writings;

The word is never the thing. The word wife is never the person, the door is never the thing. The word prevents the actual perception of the thing or person because the word has many associations. These associations, which are actually remembrances, distort not only visual observation but psychological. Words then become a barrier to the free flow of observation. Take the words, prime minister and clerk. They describe functions but the words prime minister have tremendous significance of power, status and importance whereas the word clerk has associations of unimportance, little status and no power. So the word prevents you from looking at both of them as human beings.
I wouldn’t go that far but words can literally bring forth negative or positive feelings that are associated with that particular word.
There is ingrained snobbery in most of us, and to see what words have done to our thinking and to be choicelessly aware of it, is to learn the art of observation – to observe without association.
True. Words have different emotional responses depending on what is being said and who is saying it. It’s good to be aware of how our minds work in order remove false associations and connotations.
It sounds to me like Krishnamurti is making an argument similar to your father’s but without the “screen of undeniable substance” and all that stuff.
You just want to get his claim that the eyes are not a sense organ removed any way you can. If Krishnamurti could change the narrative, you would be indebted to him for life. :giggle:
 
Asking to be taken seriously and treated with respect in academia, without first fighting for your ideas and winning, is just like turning up at the veterans dinner wearing a Military Cross you found in a junkshop.
I've been fighting for these ideas probably longer than you've been alive, so please don't be so condescending. Thank you.
Yeah, but you missed completely on the "and winning" clause, and are oblivious as to just how badly and obviously you have failed, so condescension is actually warranted.
Where's the evidence bilby that I have failed? Show me the EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The eyes don't have nerve endings like the other senses.
Yes, they do.

https://askabiologist.asu.edu/rods-and-cones
You can call them what you will but what Lessans was saying is that if a baby had no sensory stimulation, he would never be able to focus the eyes.
Yes, I understand that that's what he said. It would be extraordinary, if true.

What evidence has he for that claim?
He explained it.
Repeating an assertion in more words isn't evidence. Even the most detailed explaination is not evidence.

I asked "What evidence has he for that claim?". I await an answer.
You may not think this is true and of course this is hypothetical because we can't actually test this in this way
So, no evidence. OK, well then I don't believe him. Extraordinary claims with no evidence not only can be, but should be dismissed.
Okay, if that's what you believe.
It is the only alternative to believing literally any crazy shit anyone has ever said.
but if he is right, then what?
That's putting the cart before the horse. He isn't right, so we need not worry about it.
Are you dismissing him outright?
Yes, but only because the alternative would be to believe whatever crazy shit anyone ever says. Which would be literally insane.

What makes his unevidenced claim any better than anyone else's?
I don't know what you mean by "unevidenced claim." He explained why his claim was correct by demonstrating what occurs with light. Why was his demonstration worse than what delayed vision claims? I don't get it.
Because it's not evidence. It doesn't entail
observations of reality that anyone can repeat for thrmselves; Just his interpretations of the meaning of his assertions. It's all internal to him. It doesn't reference reality. So it's not evidence, it's just speculation.
Without evidence
He had evidence
Then you should be able to present it.
, why would I choose to believe that a baby could not develop sight without assistance from the other senses, and not also choose to believe that the Moon is made from Stilton cheese, or that the Earth is flat, or any other crazy hunch anyone has ever had?
No one, of all people this author took 30 years to come to this conclusion would ever make a claim that was inaccurate.
Literally everyone makes claims that are inaccurate.
It is worthy of investigation. He was objective in his analysis.
Then present the evidence - the objective evidence, not his speculations about his assertions - so we can repeat his analysis for ourselves, and determine whether his conclusions are warranted.
 
an equation needs to be proven true before we can use it to land men on the moon.
You really don't have any understanding of what science IS, do you?

You are doing stuff that looks to you like science, but are oblivious to the fact that you are not doing science, because you have never been taught how science works.

As I said before:

The problem, as I see it, is the way that science is taught in schools, particularly at the primary school level, which for many (likely most) people in any given community is the only science education they ever get.

See, people have this impression, based on that educational experience, that science is much the same as all the other subjects we study. But it is not. Science is fundamentally different, and most people are never exposed to that fact.

Worse, we use the word "science" in two distinct ways, and this only adds to the confusion. "Science" can mean "The methodology by which we find out about reality"; But it can also mean "The body of information generated by the scientific method"

Education (in the west, at least) started off as a religious activity, and in primary education, this history has an enduring footprint. When teaching children about Christianity, there is a primary reference, the Bible, which is supposedly unquestionable, and which contains the right answers. Even in non-Christian religions, there are fundamentals that are to be accepted without question; And behind it all is the pre-literacy understanding that writing is magic.

If something is written, then it is true. The answer is in the book.

If a teacher and his student are in dispute, they resolve the dispute by refering to the textbook. The book has the right answer. If the book agrees with you, you win the argument.

Science (the methodology) fundamentally rejects this. In science (the methodology), books are just the words of people who are not even present; No dispute can be resolved by direct reference to mere writings. The writings themselves must be tested against reality.

Science (the body of information) is just an attempt to save time and effort. When the methodology has been applied repeatedly to a given question, and has so far always given the same answer, we write the answer in a book and get kids to memorise it, not because it is The TruthTM, but because it would be impossible to get things done if every time we wanted to examine anything, we had to start by demonstrating (yet again) that matter comprises particles of such-and-such a mass, with such-and-such an electric charge, etc., etc.

When I want to know the speed of light in a vacuum, I look it up in a book. Not because the books are never wrong, but because I have decided to provisionally trust the existing science (the body of information), as a time saving shortcut. If I had any inkling of a doubt, I could, should, and would reject what is written, and go test for myself using science (the methodology) to find the speed of light in a vacuum.

Disputes in science (the methodology), regarding what is a part of science (the body of information) are resolved by reference to reality - we devise and conduct experiments to test hypotheses, and these experiments belong, not to a priestly class, nor to a teacher who has control of the textbook, nor to a Board of Education who decide which books are textbooks and which are not, but to anyone who wants to conduct them.

Science (the methodology), unlike any other educational discipline, is ruthlessly egalitarian. Anyone can overturn science (the body of work) by coming up with a test that anyone else can repeat, and which reliably demonstrates (a part of) that body of work to be false.

But (at primary school) we teach science (the body of work) the way we teach religion; And we don't teach the methodology part at all, or if we do, we treat it as though it were just another rule to be memorised and regurgitated without question.

Kids are left with the impression that science (the body of information) is just another set of beliefs. And as we see from the massive diversity of sects just within one major branch of one religion, this implies that anyone can just make up any old rubbish they like, and then set about collecting disciples, adherents, and evangelists to believe it and spread the word. The criteria for success are having as many adherents as possible; Having evangelical zeal, to accrue still more adherents to your position; And most importantly of all, having a book.

Science (the body of information) is taught this way in schools. So it's hardly surprising that so much pseudoscience arises amongst those with limited exposure to science as a methodology, rather than as a body of information.

This fundamental failure to grasp what science (the methodology) is, or how science (the body of information) came to be, and how it can be (and constantly is) changed as new observations are made and new experiments carried out, is at the root of the problem here.

We can talk about free will, eyes as sense organs, how light works, etc., etc., until the cows freeze over, and it won't change a thing - because peacegirl is not on the same page as the rest of us. Peacegirl doesn't understand that science differs in any important way from theology, and so is determined to win her argument on the basis of theological rhetoric. She has a new book, and wants it to replace, or supplement, the old book. Because she thinks that's how knowledge works.

She does not, and perhaps cannot, grasp that the science books we use are not books of power, but are mere aide-mémoires that tally the current state of the game.

Replacing Newton's Optiks, or Einstein's General Relativity, or Maxwell's Electromagnetic Equations, with a new book of wondrous claims is not only difficult; It is futile. No part of science (the methodology) is beholden to books of science (the body of information); Unlike in literally every other educational discipline*, in science the relationship is reversed.

The body of work derives from, and is entirely subservient to, the methodology. You can subvert a church by replacing its Bible with a new work (a Koran, or a Book of Mormon, or the scribblings of L. Ron Hubbard, or of Lessans, or of anyone). But you can only subvert science (the body of information) by following the scientific method - and if a change is shown by that method to be required, the science books are all rendered obsolete at a stroke. There are no sects or splinter groups - only people who have abandoned the scientific methodology, and thereby rendered themselves irrelevant.

The methodology is simple. Hypotheses, rigorously tested against repeatable and universally testable observations, and those shown to be false, discarded.

If you want to change science (the body of information) it is simple (but not easy): Just detail an observation that anyone else can make for themselves, which demonstrates that a part of that body of information is false.

Be aware that trust is not a part of science (the methodology). No scientist trusts anyone, particularly not himself.

The question is not "should we trust Newton, or should we trust Lessans?". The question is "Which of these two has given us the details needed to repeat his work, and surprise ourselves into agreeing with his answers, starting from a provisional assumption that his answers are bullshit?"

Newton has done that. You don't need to take his word for anything, and he doesn't ask you to; He has provided a detailed set of procedures for proving him wrong, and invites you to give it your best shot, either using his procedure, or coming up with your own. That, right there, is science.







* The very word 'discipline', meaning 'a field of study', carries the historical baggage of the idea that one learns by rote, from infallible books, whereby error arises only from incorrect reading or interpretation of the sacred text. Science ain't like that, but primary education usually acts as though it were.
Your teachers have failed you, as they fail so many people. You have been provided with a medieval set of tools for deciding what is or is not real, which in a post-Enlightenment world, is a vile crime and terrible harm to do to a child.

You are, of course, blameless in this. Even most of your teachers (in the broadest sense, including your parents and friends, as well as formal teachers) are similarly blameless, having been deprived in their turn of the tools to make sense of reality - a deprivation that is welcomed by the superstitious and the religious, who feel more comfortable living a medieval mental life, while taking physiological advantage of the modern science they do not even begin to comprehend.
 
Indeterminism does not negate causality.

“The reason we can’t predict the outcome of a quantum measurement,” she explains, “is that we are missing information,” that is, hidden variables. Superdeterminism, she notes, gets rid of the measurement problem and nonlocality as well as randomness. Hidden variables determine in advance how physicists carry out the experiments; physicists might think they are choosing one option over another, but they aren’t. Hossenfelder calls free will “logically incoherent nonsense.”

That is speculation, at this time it is not knowable.

Looking at all of science my conclusion is we have no idea what the reality is that we are immersed in.

You can b find scientific opinions to support most any subjective view.

I know QM models work from what I did for work. Whether the QM models actually reflect reality is not knowable.

We have no metric or absolute point of reference from which to deduce we have discovered everything.

So in turn there is no way of determining if determinism is true or false.
You're wrong. Man does not have free will and it's been proven.
All things in science come down to a measurement. Measurements come down to points of reference. System International defines all units of measure which are based on how the meter, kilogram, and seconds are defined.
On a macro level, theories about QM do not prove free will in sentient beings. No matter what can be learned from QM cannot prove free will true because we can't go back in time to prove this, so not only can free will not be proved true but determinism, as the opposite of free will, cannot be proved false. It is a fact that man can only move in one direction, which means that once a decision is made, it could not have been otherwise.
Free will and determinism are abstract philosophical concepts. With the rise of modern science and areas like QM the philosophical debate conflates science and philosophy.

Neither free will nor determinism are provable or disprovable by experiment. If it were the question would have been decided by now. and an entire area of philosophy wold go away.

There is agreement on what free will and determinism means.

My view is we are conditioned by experience from birth, there is no way to separate that out from decisions we make. Experience becomes a permanent part of our brains and is intertwined with decision making.

I thunk the question of free will and determinism are irrelevant.

If you want to convince me determinism is true

1. Define the term preisely and unambiguously such that there can be no misinterpretation. Not as easy as it sounds. Quoting the book or a net definition is not acceptable,
2. Define all attributes that wound be manifested in reality based on #1.
3. Define how you would demonstrate the attributes such that there can be no questions of the outcomess, procedures, and ion conclusions.
4. How would you select participants?
5. Is a control group possible?

That is the level of detail required if you want to get the attention of science.


That would be a major project to formulate and pass peer review. I expect it would take a team to do it.

Are we having fun yet?
 
Of course, he can be challenged but the challenge can't just be, "he is wrong because the science is settled."
That's not the challenge.

The challenge is "he is wrong because the scientific method, applied to his claims, using observations about reality to test those claims, shows him to be wrong".

The science is never settled. That's not how science works. It isn't a religion, and it isn't similar to religion.

Anyone who says "the science is settled" is making the same category of error thst you (and he) are; This often happens as a deliberate shortcut in appealing to the mass of scientific illiterates, who are actually impressed by proclaimations of authority. But it remains erroneous and fallacious, even when it is applied to statements that are actually true.
 
Decline and Fall of All Evil
The Most Important Discovery of Our Times

Lets look at the title.

On first glance the first line sounds like a theological exclamation. A fantastic declaration of things to come. The hook that draws in the reader.

The second lime of course embellishes the claim, the most important disc covey of our time. Of course it is, the author says it is.

Then a salutation to all mankind, a bit grandiose IMO certainly a high opinion of himself as savior of mankind, followed by quotes of well known literary figures. Routine. Adds authenticity and tells people the author is smart and well read.

Then

This is the most fantastic non-fiction book ever written because it will
verify the prediction made in the introduction by producing
unbelievable changes in human relations in the next 25 years. By
discovering the invariable laws of the solar system we were able to
predict an eclipse and land men on the moon. By discovering the
invariable laws that inhere in the mankind system we are able, for the
very first time, to predict and accomplish what was never before
possible — our deliverance from evil.

Again heralding fantastical claims. Imagine regal trumpets.

Establish credibility by association. The laws I have found are as solid of the laws of physics. My predictions are as certain as the laws of science that predict an eclipse.

To me sounds like an Evangelical preacher proclaiming prophesy from the bible.

'our deliverance from evil' taken from The Lord's Prayer.

Then he appears to invoke the Civil War.
What do you mean by "he appears to invoke the Civil War." You mean to get people angry?
Note: Twelve years after the author’s passing, his daughter, Janis
Rafael, went on a mission to compile her father's seven books in the
hope that this discovery will not be lost to future generatio

And then as someone said it appears to lead into General Semantics

Socrates and prenatal consciousness?
What are you talking about?
Sorry Peacegirl, but the writer appears to be incoherent and babbling with delusions of grandeur, a Moses complex.
This book is definitely not for you. It's incredible what people read into. Maybe it's because I know what he has. If you knew that his discovery turned out to be true, you would have a completely different take on the introduction. It's just that you don't believe he has anything therefore you are looking at what is written from the perspective of a person who has already failed.
He threw together things he read..
You are so off the beaten track. Your words say nothing, they do not give any evidence to the contrary. You're just asserting that he is wrong. This kind of post is not what I want to waste my time with. I will just have to pass over your texts because I can see you are not curious; you have no questions to even see if there's any truth to what he's saying. Smh
The problem with never interacting with peers and never being in a college classroom is you never experience criticism interactively.

Eisenstein went through a series of peer reviews with colleagues before publishing relativity.

Decline and Fall of All Evil
The Most Important Discovery of Our Times

Lets look at the title.

On first glance the first line sounds like a theological exclamation. A fantastic declaration of things to come. The hook that draws in the reader.

The second lime of course embellishes the claim, the most important disc covey of our time. Of course it is, the author says it is.

Then a salutation to all mankind, a bit grandiose IMO certainly a high opinion of himself as savior of mankind, followed by quotes of well known literary figures. Routine. Adds authenticity and tells people the author is smart and well read.

Then

This is the most fantastic non-fiction book ever written because it will
verify the prediction made in the introduction by producing
unbelievable changes in human relations in the next 25 years. By
discovering the invariable laws of the solar system we were able to
predict an eclipse and land men on the moon. By discovering the
invariable laws that inhere in the mankind system we are able, for the
very first time, to predict and accomplish what was never before
possible — our deliverance from evil.

Again heralding fantastical claims. Imagine regal trumpets.

Establish credibility by association. The laws I have found are as solid of the laws of physics. My predictions are as certain as the laws of science that predict an eclipse.

To me sounds like an Evangelical preacher proclaiming prophesy from the bible.

'our deliverance from evil' taken from The Lord's Prayer.

Then he appears to invoke the Civil War.

Note: Twelve years after the author’s passing, his daughter, Janis
Rafael, went on a mission to compile her father's seven books in the
hope that this discovery will not be lost to future generatio

And then as someone said it appears to lead into General Semantics

Socrates and prenatal consciousness?

Sorry Peacegirl, but the writer appears to be incoherent and babbling with delusions of grandeur, a Moses complex.

He threw together things he read..

The problem with never interacting with peers and never being in a college classroom is you never experience criticism interactively.

Eisenstein went through a series of peer reviews with colleagues before publishing relativity.
 
Decline and Fall of All Evil
The Most Important Discovery of Our Times

Lets look at the title.
That was my book and my wording. Crucify me.
On first glance the first line sounds like a theological exclamation. A fantastic declaration of things to come. The hook that draws in the reader.

The second lime of course embellishes the claim, the most important disc covey of our time. Of course it is, the author says it is.

Then a salutation to all mankind, a bit grandiose IMO certainly a high opinion of himself as savior of mankind, followed by quotes of well known literary figures. Routine. Adds authenticity and tells people the author is smart and well read.
It is dedicated to all mankind because it will help all mankind. His second book was dedicated to his parents, but my compilation was also dedicated to all mankind because that's who it's for!!
Then

This is the most fantastic non-fiction book ever written because it will
verify the prediction made in the introduction by producing
unbelievable changes in human relations in the next 25 years. By
discovering the invariable laws of the solar system we were able to
predict an eclipse and land men on the moon. By discovering the
invariable laws that inhere in the mankind system we are able, for the
very first time, to predict and accomplish what was never before
possible — our deliverance from evil.

Again heralding fantastical claims. Imagine regal trumpets.
That's your interpretation. He was not asking for trumpets. He always said this knowledge belongs to the world, not him.
Establish credibility by association. The laws I have found are as solid of the laws of physics. My predictions are as certain as the laws of science that predict an eclipse.
Yes, and just as there are laws that predict an eclipse, there are laws that can prevent our movement in a direction that hurts others. You still don't understand why this is so, but you have so much empty talk. It's sad. :(


To me sounds like an Evangelical preacher proclaiming prophesy from the bible.

'our deliverance from evil' taken from The Lord's Prayer.
Yes, it's okay. He used the Bible's terminology. So what? He was not wrong to use it. In fact, he showed why religion is coming to an end because evil (hurt) is coming to an end. This prayer: "God please deliver us from all evil" will finally be realized so there will be no more need for formal religion when their prayers have been fulfilled.
Then he appears to invoke the Civil War.
Which civil war are you talking about? Did I miss something?
Note: Twelve years after the author’s passing, his daughter, Janis
Rafael, went on a mission to compile her father's seven books in the
hope that this discovery will not be lost to future generatio
I wrote that. What's wrong with it?

And then as someone said it appears to lead into General Semantics

Socrates and prenatal consciousness?
WTF are you talking about?
Sorry Peacegirl, but the writer appears to be incoherent and babbling with delusions of grandeur, a Moses complex.
He was the most humble man. His entire chapter regarding words and education show that he had no delusions of grandeur. He was not the kind of person that showed off. This thread just shows me once again that there is no way I can prove to anyone that it is important to read the book in its entirety at least twice. He had no delusions of grandeur. I can't keep defending him with this garbage, which means I am not going to read your posts because they say nothing. You're just making horrible assertions. If his knowledge was recognized by renowned scientists, your perception of him would be totally different.
He threw together things he read..

The problem with never interacting with peers and never being in a college classroom is you never experience criticism interactively.

Eisenstein went through a series of peer reviews with colleagues before publishing relativity.
He did whatever he could to bring his discovery to light. The criticism you talk about is unfounded. If it was constructive criticism as far as the writing style, that's okay. He even said someone could have done a better job, but the content is another story. Criticism of something that is not understood is worthless!
 
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M dear Peacegirl. you are nailing yourself to your own cross which you created for yourself.

Are you having fun yet?

As I said, if you want respect and attention you will have to make your cases as I outlined.

Nothing like this topic, what I outlined is the kind of detail I would have to do with my work. I speak from experience. I was just a regular engineer, and that kind of detail was always required.

Cognitive and experimental psychology are well developed disciplines. Have you made a search for any related previous experimental wok in these areas?.

And there is genetics and neuroscience.

You have a warm fuzzy feeling in your head about why you think you are right and tetsed with a dog(?). Tu8rng that into a convincing detailed argument is annotate tn g entirely. It takes work.

When questioned here you never really engage, you refer to the book and say it is prtven.

That is most likely why in your life you have not gotten anywhere with your ideas.


Something I learned through hard knocks an a little pain. When making an argument to other people think how many ways what you are saying can be challenged, and be ready with responses.
 
What false premises did he start off with?
That the eye is not a sense organ.
He hadn't even explained anything. He was just making an analogy to chess. IOW, just as there are rules to the game of chess, there are rules to the game of reasoning.
That is so; And he demonstrates is incomprehension of those rules with great skill and frequency.
There was nothing wrong with what he said.
Apart from almost all of it being wrong. :rolleyesa:
 
I never heard that professors are already aware that man doesn't have five senses.
That there are many things of which you have never heard may come as a surprise to you, but it really shouldn't.
Can you point me to any information you can find? According to what people are taught, we have five senses. It would be nice to know that he was not alone.
There is a HUGE list on Wikipedia of things that are widely believed, and that people are taught, that are well known by "professors" (ie by people who have studied those things rather than just believe the folk wisdom about them) to be false.

Amongst these is:

wikipedia said:
Humans have more than the commonly cited five senses. The number of senses in various categorizations ranges from 5 to more than 20. In addition to sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing, which were the senses identified by Aristotle, humans can sense balance and acceleration (equilibrioception), pain (nociception), body and limb position (proprioception or kinesthetic sense), and relative temperature (thermoception). Other senses sometimes identified are the sense of time, echolocation, itching, pressure, hunger, thirst, fullness of the stomach, need to urinate, need to defecate, blood carbon dioxide (CO2) levels, and electric field sensation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions

"What people are taught" is a dreadful guide to what is true, hence the requirement for the scientific method, and for people to discard the habit of taking other people's word for things.
 
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