Richard Dawkins "stripped of humanist of the year" award.

[Trausti]

To say that a standard gestated and born XY male who even surgically and hormonally transitioned to a woman was always a woman is an ideology driven lie.

Those people who talk like that those are shithouse rat crazy.

 

[untermensche]

Doesn't follow.

There are hermaphrodites.

What brain do they have?

If there is a male mind and a female mind you can't say what mind a person has by looking at their body.

You are claiming to be able to look at minds.

What a joke!

No, I am pointing out that the brain is part of the body. Hence, if Jenner has a male body - which you claim -, in particular Jenner has a male brain. Now if Jenner has a male brain, pretty obviously Jenner has a male mind - that last part is based on empirical observations.

The brain is not the mind.

You claim to be able to see minds.

You must be joking?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Doesn't follow.

There are hermaphrodites.

What brain do they have?

If there is a male mind and a female mind you can't say what mind a person has by looking at their body.

You are claiming to be able to look at minds.

What a joke!

No, I am pointing out that the brain is part of the body. Hence, if Jenner has a male body - which you claim -, in particular Jenner has a male brain. Now if Jenner has a male brain, pretty obviously Jenner has a male mind - that last part is based on empirical observations.

The brain is not the mind.

You claim to be able to see minds.

You must be joking?

Are you seriously debating this? Do you really think Jenner has a male brain but might still have a female mind? Do you think that that is realistic?

 

[Trausti]

The brain is not the mind.

You claim to be able to see minds.

You must be joking?

Are you seriously debating this? Do you really think Jenner has a male brain but might still have a female mind? Do you think that that is realistic?

Jenner doesn't deny biological reality.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48aCskFJ6U[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Trausti]

 

[Angra Mainyu]

The brain is not the mind.

You claim to be able to see minds.

You must be joking?

Are you seriously debating this? Do you really think Jenner has a male brain but might still have a female mind? Do you think that that is realistic?

Jenner doesn't deny biological reality.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48aCskFJ6U[/YOUTUBE]

I'm not sure how the video supports the claim (though I may well have missed some reference I'm not familiar with in the images). Jenner does not deny biological reality in it. But that aside, I seem to remember an old statement shortly after coming out as trans, where he said he was not a woman. But then again, I do not know whether his view has changed. Also, it's not clear whether claiming to be a woman would be a denial or biological reality or a mistake about the meaning of the words, or an attempt to change the meaning of the words, etc.

That said, if your point is about female sports, Jenner is at odds with most of the Woke in my experience https://www.cbsnews.com/news/caitlyn-jenner-transgender-girls-sports/

 

[Trausti]

Jenner doesn't deny biological reality.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48aCskFJ6U[/YOUTUBE]

I'm not sure how the video supports the claim (though I may well have missed some reference I'm not familiar with in the images). Jenner does not deny biological reality in it. But that aside, I seem to remember an old statement shortly after coming out as trans, where he said he was not a woman. But then again, I do not know whether his view has changed. Also, it's not clear whether claiming to be a woman would be a denial or biological reality or a mistake about the meaning of the words, or an attempt to change the meaning of the words, etc.

That said, if your point is about female sports, Jenner is at odds with most of the Woke in my experience https://www.cbsnews.com/news/caitlyn-jenner-transgender-girls-sports/

Well, Jenner includes footage of himself at the Olympics as a man. And, right, Jenner has the sense to know that it is unfair for biological males to compete with biological females. Interestingly, while the transgender issue is usually a lefty position, these middle-aged mtf trans tend to be hardcore conservative.

 

[fromderinside]

When one seeks shelter in gender change one becomes visible testimony one is seeking notoriety. The theory explains the post above observation well.

 

[Politesse]

]That is not an answer. This is a discussion board. Discussions about the meaning of the words are within the rules, as are discussions about the mental properties associated with mental conditions such as gender dysphoria. You may choose to participate or not. However, you pretty much chose to participate by replying to TomC.

I am. That is my real and true perspective on the matter. People who try to legislate how other people ought to identify gender-wise are busybodies at best, and usually morons. It really isn't their business to decide.

And may I say, you very clearly have no sense of humor, as I was more poking fun at TomC's unfortunate wording than trying to make a solid philosophical argument, and I think that was pretty obvious from context.

Generally, there is a reason not to assert things that are, on the basis of one's information, certainly or at least probably false. That reason is defeasible, but it is a reason. In light of that, in order for Jenner's claim that Jenner is a woman to make it so there is no reason for you to refer to Jenner in any other way, Jenner's claim would have to give you conclusive evidence of that. Were is the evidence?

Generally, if you find yourself making vague yet existential-sounding arguments about the import of what you're saying, it's a substitute for an actually convincing argument.

Additionally, what do you make of previous claims made by Jenner that Jenner was not a woman? Was Jenner in error about whether Jenner was a woman?

I can imagine no better authority on that point than Jenner herself

But given that humans reproduce sexually, given the behavior of other primates, and given the behavior of humans, it would be pretty improbable if humans did not normally and instinctively assess the sex of other humans, in an intuitive sense of 'sex'. And that sense seems to match whether a person is a man or a woman.

If you're planning to reproduce with someone, then yes, their assigned biological sex might be an important thing to know. But I would hope that, if you were indeed planning to reproduce with someone, you would also know them well enough that they wouldn't mind disclosing that kind of thing. And frankly, I don't think you have much of a chance with Jenner either way.

But leave that aside and say that does not happen. Even then, words such as 'woman' and 'man' are ubiquitous, and humans who speak English will intuitively assess (even assuming it's a cultural based intuition) whether a human they see is a woman or a man. Even if you do not try, it would be extremely improbable that you do not do it intuitively and without trying.

And most people who meet Caitlyn Jenner on the street probably do, in fact, intuit that she's a woman, unless they happen to recognize her from television. This is a trained behavior, though, not some magical instinct.

All of that aside, you actually replied to TomC and to me implying that Jenner is a woman, so it looks like you just assessed Jenner's gender.

Well, no, I happen to know that she identifies as a woman. If I didn't, I would probably assume she did due to her presentation, and not try to interrogate the matter further. Even if I could somehow "prove her wrong" about her own self-perception, what earthly good would that accomplish?

True. You are a person who implicitly accuse those who disagree with you of being obsessed with what other people's genitals look like, while you dodge engaging in an actual debate to defend your position, though you probably do not do this deliberately.

And you're someone who admits to thinking that all people are obsessed at all times with the instinctive drive to reproduce, and heavily implying but pointedly not stating, that this gives you the right to invade other people's privacy.

The question of what property or properties make a person a woman or a man - generally, the meaning of such words - is no one's private business.

No, that's a social and cultural conversation of considerable complexity. But answering it is not necessary every time you meet some person on the street, especially if your answer is that you yourself ought to be the sole arbiter of it even over and above their own self-perception somehow.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I am. That is my real and true perspective on the matter. People who try to legislate how other people ought to identify gender-wise are busybodies at best, and usually morons. It really isn't their business to decide.

But who in this thread is trying to legislate anything?

The words 'man', 'woman', etc., are words in English. They have a meaning. They have a referent. Some of us are discussing whether, given the available evidence about both said meanings and the properties of Jenner and other trans women and trans men (before surgery, after surgery, etc.), those people are probably, very probably, certainly, etc., men, women, etc. While I have no problem discussing the matters at hand, something like " People who try to legislate..." is just baffling in this context, as we are not trying to legislate.

Let me give you an example: suppose a man self-identifies as a psychic. I will say on the basis of the available evidence that his claim about himself is false. But that is light years from legislating how he ought to identify himself. I will even say he ought not to identify himself as a psychic (under realistic conditions), but I would not at all want to pass a law banning him from so identifying.

And may I say, you very clearly have no sense of humor, as I was more poking fun at TomC's unfortunate wording than trying to make a solid philosophical argument, and I think that was pretty obvious from context.

I do have a sense of humor. I just did not find your reply humorous.
By the way, I am human, and nearly all humans do have a sense of humor, and it would be extremely difficult to find one who does not, and you definitely have no evidence to conclude that I do not have one- let alone 'very clearly' -, and...etc.

Now, I did get you were not trying to make a serious philosophical argument in such a short post - which does not mean you didn't have some philosophical argument to support your position; you just weren't making it there. And yes, you were poking fun at him for choosing an unfortunate wording, that much is obvious. But there was a point being made too: you were questioning his assessment on the matter, or so it seemed. At any rate, if you did not mean to make a point, you can always say so and clarify.

Generally, if you find yourself making vague yet existential-sounding arguments about the import of what you're saying, it's a substitute for an actually convincing argument.

That's not what I did, though, and that does not address my challenge.

I can imagine no better authority on that point than Jenner herself

A bit ambiguous, but if you meant that seriously, then if Jenner does claim to be a woman now, then that would entail that he was a man, and then he became a woman, and now she is a woman. Would you agree with that?

But given that humans reproduce sexually, given the behavior of other primates, and given the behavior of humans, it would be pretty improbable if humans did not normally and instinctively assess the sex of other humans, in an intuitive sense of 'sex'. And that sense seems to match whether a person is a man or a woman.

If you're planning to reproduce with someone, then yes, their assigned biological sex might be an important thing to know. But I would hope that, if you were indeed planning to reproduce with someone, you would also know them well enough that they wouldn't mind disclosing that kind of thing. And frankly, I don't think you have much of a chance with Jenner either way.

No, it's not about planning to reproduce. Chimps, bonobos, capuchin monkeys, etc., will also distinguish between males and females instinctively, and they're surely not planning to reproduce. Humans - obviously - tell whether other humans are females or males all the time, unconsciously, and certainly not making any plans.

And most people who meet Caitlyn Jenner on the street probably do, in fact, intuit that she's a woman, unless they happen to recognize her from television. This is a trained behavior, though, not some magical instinct.

Not magical instinct, but instinct nonetheless, or if you like, an intuition that exists in normally developed primates. And other mammals. And a gazillion other things.

As for whether they would reckon that Jenner is a woman, maybe, maybe not. If they got more information, most would reckon otherwise. After all, assessments of sex are sensitive to further information. This is so even in other primates - which can get further info by looking at the genitals, for example, though it's unclear what they'd reckon in this case -, but even more so in humans.

At any rate, everyone reckoned he was male in the past.

Well, no, I happen to know that she identifies as a woman. If I didn't, I would probably assume she did due to her presentation, and not try to interrogate the matter further. Even if I could somehow "prove her wrong" about her own self-perception, what earthly good would that accomplish?

I was not talking about whether she identifies as such, but whether she is such. Clearly, to be a woman and to identify as a woman are different things.

And you're someone who admits to thinking that all people are obsessed at all times with the instinctive drive to reproduce, and heavily implying but pointedly not stating, that this gives you the right to invade other people's privacy.

No, I'm not remotely saying that all people are obsessed at all with that. Rather, they instinctively classify objects - including other humans - in different categories, including that one, and even when they're not at all thinking about reproduction, or even sex.

And the accusation that I think that that gives me the right to invade other people's privacy is just absurd, and not based on anything you've read.

No, that's a social and cultural conversation of considerable complexity. But answering it is not necessary every time you meet some person on the street, especially if your answer is that you yourself ought to be the sole arbiter of it even over and above their own self-perception somehow.

That again is a wild accusation that has nothing to do with what I've said. Well, except in the sense each of us is the "sole arbiter" of every assessment each of us makes. But of course I am more than willing to discuss the evidence and the matter, as you can see (purely for example) in my conversation with B20.

 

[untermensche]

The brain is not the mind.

You claim to be able to see minds.

You must be joking?

Are you seriously debating this? Do you really think Jenner has a male brain but might still have a female mind? Do you think that that is realistic?

Are you seriously debating this as if you can see minds?

Do you claim a thing like a male mind exists or a female mind exists?

If so then anyone can have one. Just like anyone can have blue eyes.

It is called genetics.

Genetics means many mistakes. It is not a perfect system. That is it's greatness.

Tell me what genes create a mind, not a brain, and you will have a point.

 

[ZiprHead]

Jenner doesn't deny biological reality.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48aCskFJ6U[/YOUTUBE]

I'm not sure how the video supports the claim (though I may well have missed some reference I'm not familiar with in the images). Jenner does not deny biological reality in it. But that aside, I seem to remember an old statement shortly after coming out as trans, where he said he was not a woman. But then again, I do not know whether his view has changed. Also, it's not clear whether claiming to be a woman would be a denial or biological reality or a mistake about the meaning of the words, or an attempt to change the meaning of the words, etc.

That said, if your point is about female sports, Jenner is at odds with most of the Woke in my experience https://www.cbsnews.com/news/caitlyn-jenner-transgender-girls-sports/

Well, Jenner includes footage of himself at the Olympics as a man. And, right, Jenner has the sense to know that it is unfair for biological males to compete with biological females. Interestingly, while the transgender issue is usually a lefty position, these middle-aged mtf trans tend to be hardcore conservative.

Really?

CAITLYN JENNER CRITICISED FOR PLAYING IN WOMEN'S GOLF LEAGUE

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Are you seriously debating this as if you can see minds?

No, I'm debating this as if I had the information I have; even about minds.

Do you claim a thing like a male mind exists or a female mind exists?

Yes, but I do not need that claim to counter your claims.

If there is no such thing as a female mind, it is not the case that Jenner has a female mind.
If there is such thing as a male mind and - as implied by your posts - Jenner has a male brain, it is pretty clear that Jenner does not have a female mind.


Leaving that aside, here's why it is not the case Jenner has a female mind:
Jenner has experienced, for decades, having a penis. Jenner has preferences involving a penis. Jenner has had sex using Jenner's penis. Jenner has never experienced having a vagina. Jenner has no preferences involving Jenner's non-vagina. In all of the above respects, Jenner has a male mind, and not a female mind. If Jenner has a mind that is female-like in some other regards - of which I have seen no evidence, given that he is gynephilic -, then his mind has both male-like and female-like properties. In my discussion with B20 you can see why I think Jenner would still be a man at least when he went by 'Bruce', and I think probably today as well.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Well, Jenner includes footage of himself at the Olympics as a man. And, right, Jenner has the sense to know that it is unfair for biological males to compete with biological females. Interestingly, while the transgender issue is usually a lefty position, these middle-aged mtf trans tend to be hardcore conservative.

Really?

CAITLYN JENNER CRITICISED FOR PLAYING IN WOMEN'S GOLF LEAGUE

It looks like Jenner changed Jenner's mind.

 

[TomC]

Really?

CAITLYN JENNER CRITICISED FOR PLAYING IN WOMEN'S GOLF LEAGUE

Nuanced thinker that I try to be, I don't see this as an issue.

Golf is a sport that the male physique doesn't give much advantage to, unlike most. It's more about training, focus, and precision. It's less about peak physical output, like basketball or pole vaulting. Also, Jenner is an adult competing against other adults. That's different from young women competing against young men. The stakes are very different from those of Olympic level or youngsters.

I don't think natal women should be forced to compete against natal men under most circumstances, but this doesn't strike me as an issue.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

I don't think they're crazy. I think that they're brainwashed.

Believing that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman exactly like my mom is a woman makes no sense. But I don't think that it's crazy so much as terminally Woke. It's more like a disease than a characteristic.
Tom

No, Caitlyn Jenner is not "exactly like your mom". Do you believe that all people assigned female at birth are "exactly like your mom"?

Saying someone is "a woman exactly like my mom is a woman" and saying someone is "exactly like my mom" are two completely different propositions. English: it's a thing. Look into it.

 

[TomC]

I don't think they're crazy. I think that they're brainwashed.

Believing that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman exactly like my mom is a woman makes no sense. But I don't think that it's crazy so much as terminally Woke. It's more like a disease than a characteristic.
Tom

No, Caitlyn Jenner is not "exactly like your mom". Do you believe that all people assigned female at birth are "exactly like your mom"?

Saying someone is "a woman exactly like my mom is a woman" and saying someone is "exactly like my mom" are two completely different propositions. English: it's a thing. Look into it.

That passes for humor, in certain circles.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

If Jenner has a mind that is female-like in some other regards - of which I have seen no evidence, given that he is gynephilic -, then his mind has both male-like and female-like properties.

Hey, I learned a new word today! Thanks for that.

I like this word. The intent behind it is clear enough: to specify which people a person is sexually attracted to, but without thereby automatically having to specify whether that person is male or female -- thus communicating the relevant information without bringing down on oneself the wrath of the language police.

The trouble is, it's doomed. While it cleverly avoids committing itself as to whether the gynephilic person is a man or a woman, it unfortunately cannot fail to commit itself as to whether the targets of attraction are men or women. If it catches on, it will therefore inevitably be found to be problematic by activists, who will find themselves ideologically committed to insisting that lesbians who aren't attracted to transwomen cannot be gynephilic.

 

[Bomb#20]

You are claiming to be able to look at minds.

I don't think it's [MENTION=123]Angra Mainyu[/MENTION]; or me claiming to look at minds. Quite the contrary, you are.

Actually he isn't --

It seems we can say there is such a thing as a male mind and such a thing as a female mind.

The mind cannot be observed in any way. Not even by the person with it.

-- he's claiming to be able to know stuff about minds without looking at them, without observing them in any way.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

If Jenner has a mind that is female-like in some other regards - of which I have seen no evidence, given that he is gynephilic -, then his mind has both male-like and female-like properties.

Hey, I learned a new word today! Thanks for that.

I like this word. The intent behind it is clear enough: to specify which people a person is sexually attracted to, but without thereby automatically having to specify whether that person is male or female -- thus communicating the relevant information without bringing down on oneself the wrath of the language police.

The trouble is, it's doomed. While it cleverly avoids committing itself as to whether the gynephilic person is a man or a woman, it unfortunately cannot fail to commit itself as to whether the targets of attraction are men or women. If it catches on, it will therefore inevitably be found to be problematic by activists, who will find themselves ideologically committed to insisting that lesbians who aren't attracted to transwomen cannot be gynephilic.

You're welcome , but yes, it's doomed.

I used it not to avoid doom, but because it is used in some papers I found, and Jenner seems to fall into that category as used by researchers.

https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/21/11/2525/275208

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/

So, if someone asks, I say that by that I meant what those researchers meant.

That said, I have now found a bit of evidence of a female-like property for such transwomen.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18056697/

(then again, one can easily find a more evidence in the case of gay men...).

Here's a more recent meta-study, but as the researchers point out, the evidence is pretty sketchy (and also found in gay people).

https://link.springer.com/article/1...ted&code=024657ef-a0ee-4983-b6d1-45dde32bfd7b

Also, science aside, the claims made by transwomen provides some evidence of female-like mental traits, so there is that. But there isn't much overall.