Rise of the Right: Marching in Europe's Largest Nationalist Event

[JonA]

It's easy to blame your simplistic boogeymen rather than deal with the real issues at hand. Sentiments like these will only empower the right wing authoritarians. You give them the succor they crave - an enemy they feel is worth fighting against. And not without some reason, I must add, there are legitimate concerns with the stances you take. Give the right wing authoritarians even an inch of legitimacy, and they'll take it a mile. Further, it's the failure of the left to acknowledge even the inch of legitimacy that makes it so these right wing authoritarians become the sole dissenting voice on the matter, which allows them to attract far more followers and allows them to take the position to extremes. The non right-wing authoritarian dissenters on any position the left holds dear are demonized by the left as insufficiently pure, purging those voices from the discussion.

Still Waiting for an answer

Why?

This thread appears to be specifically about a type of intolerance on the Left that is empowering the Right - giving it apparent legitimacy and rising numbers.

If you want to discuss this going in the opposite direction, why not start a thread on it?

 

[untermensche]

Two elements?

You mean the idea that whites are superior?

For some reason it isn't hard for some white people everywhere to believe this.

It didn't seem like an explanation was necessary. Maybe I triggered the wrong script from the reply-bot.

tip: "white privilege" has two words. One of them is "white".[/captain obvious]

If all the leaders are white it goes without saying.

 

[dismal]

It didn't seem like an explanation was necessary. Maybe I triggered the wrong script from the reply-bot.

tip: "white privilege" has two words. One of them is "white".[/captain obvious]

If all the leaders are white it goes without saying.

What goes without saying?

 

[untermensche]

If all the leaders are white it goes without saying.

What goes without saying?

A person in that society can internalize a notion of white superiority which implies privilege.

 

[Frikki]

Every year tens of thousands of Poles attend a nationalist march in Warsaw. It's an event that has the people of Poland's capital city staying indoors.

Since its inception, far-right football fans - or 'ultras' - turn violent against the police, and the march becomes a ferocious battle between hooligans and the state. This year, however, something is different.

A right wing government is elected on the eve of the march. How will this affect this traditionally bloody parade?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnC-zSdMSRo[/youtube]

Right wing authoritarianism, nationalism, and xenophobia has crept up upon us, and the left has been completely useless throughout this whole development, obsessing over their "microagressions", "the patriarchy", "white privilege", calling people racists and bigots and Islamophobes who don't pass their purity tests, rearranging the deck chairs as the Titanic sinks. They are unwilling to challenge right-wing authoritarian ideology when it comes from the Muslim community but are hypersensitive to the point of aggravating annoyance to any hint of it from the right in the dominant culture, which means pretty much the only voice anyone hears challenging right-wing Islamist theocracy ideology is from the nutty, bigoted authoritarian right.

The left has also vastly underestimated people's right-wing inclinations to have pride in one's own culture and nation and the irrational fears of these being destroyed or fundamentally changed in some perceived fashion. They sneer at the very idea rather than attempt to channel these feelings into something positive that satisfies the inclination in a non-xenophobic, non-racist, non-bigoted direction.

I've also noticed a sharp rise in pro right-wing authoritarian comments throughout various internet sites, such as YouTube and news sites. The problem is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better, along with Islamist terrorism. The world is just at the earliest stages of these developments.

It´s funny because where I am the bigots complain about the Polish that come over here and steal our jobs, commit crimes and laze about on welfare.

But you are 100% right that the centre in Europe has not been proactive enough when it comes to immigration and that plays straight into the ultra-right´s hands.

 

[Axulus]

So, the right needs the left to save the right from themselves?

Society needs a reasonable left to save society and the resulting victims from far right authoritarians.

 

[Axulus]

Wanted to sum up a few questions points people have made or asked me about.

I'm not blaming the left for not stopping the rise of the right. I'm blaming the left for their tactics against reasonable dissenting voices from the standard left position on things like immigration, pride in nation and culture, concern about Islamism and terrorism, etc., to the extent that the loudest voices that remain on these issues in opposition to the left are far right authoritarian fascists. Thus unintentionally playing a part in empowering and contributing to their rise.

Reasonable dissenters from both the right and left are called racists, bigots, Islamophobes, supporters of genocide, etc.

Here are just a few off the top of my head:
Sam Harris
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Douglas Murray
Maajid Nawaz
Bill Maher
Ali Rizvi
Richard Dawkins

These sleazy tactics of the regressive left have watered down the terms they use to the point that those on right aren't really bothered by the terms. There is no distinction made on the regressive left between the true far right authoritarian bigots and fascists and reasonable dissenting voices in the center. You fail their purity test and you are all pretty much the one and the same to them. They are also creating chilling effects on other reasonable dissenting voices from speaking out in the first place for fear of being attacked by the regressive left. This drowning out of reasonable voices and painting others as all one and the same as the far right authoritarian fascists means that people who might otherwise side with a more reasonable dissenting voice only hear their concerns expressed by these right authoritarians. They then get sucked in to the whole package that comes with that and are not bothered by the watered down terms that the left uses against the people they listen to since the perception is that anyone who disagrees with the left on these issues gets those labels.

 

[Axulus]

It's easy to blame your simplistic boogeymen rather than deal with the real issues at hand. Sentiments like these will only empower the right wing authoritarians. You give them the succor they crave - an enemy they feel is worth fighting against. And not without some reason, I must add, there are legitimate concerns with the stances you take. Give the right wing authoritarians even an inch of legitimacy, and they'll take it a mile. Further, it's the failure of the left to acknowledge even the inch of legitimacy that makes it so these right wing authoritarians become the sole dissenting voice on the matter, which allows them to attract far more followers and allows them to take the position to extremes. The non right-wing authoritarian dissenters on any position the left holds dear are demonized by the left as insufficiently pure, purging those voices from the discussion.

Still Waiting for an answer


Where are the dissenters on the right? Why aren't the "right" thinking conservatives out in the streets counter protesting the fascists? If the left is so useless, why isn't the right doing something about their own "kith and kin?"

I think a wide swath of the right has soundly denounced Trump and what he represents. So because you think the push back from within the right is insufficient, that excuses the tactics of the regressive left in attacking others on the left or in the center regarding these issues, creating the far right authoritarians as the main source with a dissenting opinion from the left on these issues?

 

[TSwizzle]

interestingly when white people violently attack the police they are called "hooligans."

There's nothing interesting or sinister about it. The word hooligan has always been associated with football fans that enjoy a bit of rough housing.

I haven't heard that word since the 80's.

The apex of the football hooligan was indeed during the eighties where football casuals were pretty widespread in Europe, some countries more than others. Poland has always been well represented in that sphere.

 

[zorq]

In the world I live in, the far right attacks all of the ideas they perceive to be to the left of them. They have no filter or compassion for any ideas that fail their purity test. Why should the far left be expected to be any different? Why would we expect the far left to moderate their voice or opinions?

Should we expect them to say "Oh, well, I guess a little irrational Muslim persecution and discrimination is okay, go right ahead." Or "Maybe we'll just let some of those Immigrant women and children starve to death on the border." Would this REALLY dampen the resolve of the far Right? Or would it only encourage them? Move the center/moderate position of the issues just a little bit further in their direction?

What does it mean when it is claimed that the Left doesn't challenge right wing authoritarianism when it comes from Muslims? What makes people think that a refusal to treat minorities as inferiors means that right-wing authoritarian minorities aren't confronted on their BS the same way the right-wing authoritarians in power are confronted on theirs?

Maybe we don't see the Left confronting Muslim Right wing authoritarians as much as they confront the Nationalist Right wing authoritarians because the Nationalists are the ones in power where the Left wingers live! You expect the Left to waste time on rivals that have no influence where they live instead of the rivals at their front door trying to rip out their social safety nets and send their children to war?

I agree with others who see this whole thread as some sort of blame game trying to attribute some of the rise of contemporary fascism to Left.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Still Waiting for an answer

Why?

This thread appears to be specifically about a type of intolerance on the Left that is empowering the Right - giving it apparent legitimacy and rising numbers.

If you want to discuss this going in the opposite direction, why not start a thread on it?

What a lovely suggestion.

 

[Tigers!]

It's easy to blame your simplistic boogeymen rather than deal with the real issues at hand. Sentiments like these will only empower the right wing authoritarians. You give them the succor they crave - an enemy they feel is worth fighting against. And not without some reason, I must add, there are legitimate concerns with the stances you take. Give the right wing authoritarians even an inch of legitimacy, and they'll take it a mile. Further, it's the failure of the left to acknowledge even the inch of legitimacy that makes it so these right wing authoritarians become the sole dissenting voice on the matter, which allows them to attract far more followers and allows them to take the position to extremes. The non right-wing authoritarian dissenters on any position the left holds dear are demonized by the left as insufficiently pure, purging those voices from the discussion.

Still Waiting for an answer


Where are the dissenters on the right? Why aren't the "right" thinking conservatives out in the streets counter protesting the fascists?

If the dissenters did march on the streets you would call them Fascists.
Nice. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[zorq]

Still Waiting for an answer


Where are the dissenters on the right? Why aren't the "right" thinking conservatives out in the streets counter protesting the fascists?

If the dissenters did march on the streets you would call them Fascists.
Nice. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You think right wing protesters marching on the streets against fascism would be called fascists by the left???
Really?

 

[laughing dog]

So, the right needs the left to save the right from themselves?

Society needs a reasonable left people to save society and the resulting victims from far right authoritarians.

Now that makes more sense.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

There's nothing interesting or sinister about it. The word hooligan has always been associated with football fans that enjoy a bit of rough housing.

I haven't heard that word since the 80's.

The apex of the football hooligan was indeed during the eighties where football casuals were pretty widespread in Europe, some countries more than others. Poland has always been well represented in that sphere.

If this thread is merely about football fans attacking police it's in the wrong forum?

 

[Horatio Parker]

So, the right needs the left to save the right from themselves?

Society needs a reasonable left to save society and the resulting victims from far right authoritarians.

Reasonable left, to you, appears to mean joining the right in a crusade against Islam. Which would make the left your butt boy, and pretty much the opposite of a conscience.

You want Jiminy Cricket to say, "Sure, Pinocchio, take the easy road to success".

But that's the problem with consciences: they don't say what you want.

 

[Axulus]

Society needs a reasonable left to save society and the resulting victims from far right authoritarians.

Reasonable left, to you, appears to mean joining the right in a crusade against Islam.

No, try again. BTW, your tactics are exemplify those of the regressive left.

 

[zorq]

Reasonable left, to you, appears to mean joining the right in a crusade against Islam.

No, try again. BTW, your tactics are exemplify those of the regressive left.

So what exactly do you want the moderate Left to do that you think will help moderate the far right?

1.I'm inferring that you want fewer criticisms directed toward the more reasonable/centrist(?) people who are willing to advocate discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting other people based on their (undesirable) religion, ethnic heritage, and/or race.

2.I'm also inferring that you want more criticisms directed toward the Far right wing Authoritarian muslims in the world as opposed to what we have now which is the Left mostly criticizing the far right wing authoritarian Nationalists.

3.Finally, I'm inferring that you want the reasonable left to more harshly criticize the far left whenever they get too sensitive with their micro-agressions, etc.

Is that roughly what you think the Left should do?
Before I address these, let me ask, Why do you think the Left doing these things will help reduce the rise of the extreme Right?

 

[Tigers!]

If the dissenters did march on the streets you would call them Fascists.
Nice. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You think right wing protesters marching on the streets against fascism would be called fascists by the left???
Really?

Yes they would be called that. It seems that anything 'right wing' would be called fascists by the 'left wing'.

Dislike those terms so much. Labels can be so pejorative.

 

[zorq]

You think right wing protesters marching on the streets against fascism would be called fascists by the left???
Really?

Yes they would be called that. It seems that anything 'right wing' would be called fascists by the 'left wing'.

Dislike those terms so much. Labels can be so pejorative.

I'm sure they would be called that by some people, but "some people" aren't the "Left." And for some people anything "left wing" would be called communism, but those "some people" are not the same as the "Right wing." Yes, to some degree sensible political dialogue has been poisoned, but actual communication is not impossible.

You can't let the extremists and outliers drive the real conversation. One bent Right wing cop unnecessarily pepper-spraying peaceful protesters does not necessarily impugn Right wingers or Cops. One overly sensitive Left wing college student demanding censorship and freedom from offensive speech does not necessarily impugn Left wingers or college students. The left wing and right wing media outlets blow these situations out proportion to leverage them to their advantage and ignite the passions of their consumers.

Then again, maybe you are right. With the propensity to use Orwellian double speak in modern politics, I would need to take a very close look at the founding members of any "Republicans against Xenophobic Totalitarianism" group before I could conclude that they weren't actually surreptitiously supporting what they claim to stand against. They might be fascists in disguise.