Rise of the Right: Marching in Europe's Largest Nationalist Event

[Bomb#20]

So what exactly do you want the moderate Left to do that you think will help moderate the far right?

1.I'm inferring that you want fewer criticisms directed toward the more reasonable/centrist(?) people who are willing to advocate discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting other people based on their (undesirable) religion, ethnic heritage, and/or race.
...
Is that roughly what you think the Left should do?
Before I address these, let me ask, Why do you think the Left doing these things will help reduce the rise of the extreme Right?

Before I address these, let me ask, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Axulus was specific about whom he was talking about: reasonable dissenting voices in the center who fail the regressive left's purity test. You have decided that that means people who are willing to advocate discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting other people based on their (undesirable) religion, ethnic heritage, and/or race, who go in for a little irrational Muslim persecution and discrimination, and just let some of those Immigrant women and children starve to death on the border. If people dissent from your orthodoxy you treat them as fair game for all manner of vilification. Axulus apparently considers himself one of those dissenting voices in the center. Do you have any evidence that he advocated discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting people and starving them on the border? Or do you just not need evidence because his being a dissident at all is proof of wickedness and wicked people don't deserve truthfulness?

Your debating tactics make you a star exhibit for his contention.

 

[laughing dog]

Before I address these, let me ask, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Axulus was specific about whom he was talking about: reasonable dissenting voices in the center who fail the regressive left's purity test.

Nowhere in the OP is the center mentioned. It focuses exclusively on the left. Your entire response rests on a misreading of the OP.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Reasonable left, to you, appears to mean joining the right in a crusade against Islam.

No, try again. BTW, your tactics are exemplify those of the regressive left.

Ah, dialogue. Ain't communication grand?

 

[JonA]

Before I address these, let me ask, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Axulus was specific about whom he was talking about: reasonable dissenting voices in the center who fail the regressive left's purity test.

Nowhere in the OP is the center mentioned. It focuses exclusively on the left. Your entire response rests on a misreading of the OP.

Luckily we don't have to rely on just one post to understand Axulus's position.

We have posts like this, for example, where he even uses the exact phrase 'reasonable dissenting voices in the center' (bolded for your reading pleasure):

Reasonable dissenters from both the right and left are called racists, bigots, Islamophobes, supporters of genocide, etc.

Here are just a few off the top of my head:
Sam Harris
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Douglas Murray
Maajid Nawaz
Bill Maher
Ali Rizvi
Richard Dawkins

These sleazy tactics of the regressive left have watered down the terms they use to the point that those on right aren't really bothered by the terms. There is no distinction made on the regressive left between the true far right authoritarian bigots and fascists and reasonable dissenting voices in the center. You fail their purity test and you are all pretty much the one and the same to them. They are also creating chilling effects on other reasonable dissenting voices from speaking out in the first place for fear of being attacked by the regressive left. This drowning out of reasonable voices and painting others as all one and the same as the far right authoritarian fascists means that people who might otherwise side with a more reasonable dissenting voice only hear their concerns expressed by these right authoritarians. They then get sucked in to the whole package that comes with that and are not bothered by the watered down terms that the left uses against the people they listen to since the perception is that anyone who disagrees with the left on these issues gets those labels.

 

[zorq]

So what exactly do you want the moderate Left to do that you think will help moderate the far right?

1.I'm inferring that you want fewer criticisms directed toward the more reasonable/centrist(?) people who are willing to advocate discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting other people based on their (undesirable) religion, ethnic heritage, and/or race.
...
Is that roughly what you think the Left should do?
Before I address these, let me ask, Why do you think the Left doing these things will help reduce the rise of the extreme Right?

Before I address these, let me ask, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Axulus was specific about whom he was talking about: reasonable dissenting voices in the center who fail the regressive left's purity test. You have decided that that means people who are willing to advocate discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting other people based on their (undesirable) religion, ethnic heritage, and/or race, who go in for a little irrational Muslim persecution and discrimination, and just let some of those Immigrant women and children starve to death on the border. If people dissent from your orthodoxy you treat them as fair game for all manner of vilification. Axulus apparently considers himself one of those dissenting voices in the center. Do you have any evidence that he advocated discriminating, disenfranchising, and persecuting people and starving them on the border? Or do you just not need evidence because his being a dissident at all is proof of wickedness and wicked people don't deserve truthfulness?

Your debating tactics make you a star exhibit for his contention.

Firstly I didn't accuse him of advocating discriminating, disenfranchising or persecuting people. I inferred that he perhaps wants an end to criticisms of people who advocate those things.

Secondly, Do you have any evidence that Auxlus doesn't advocate discrimination, disenfranchisement or persecution? I've asked him to verify what he actually wants the left to do, because he's been a little bit vague. He offers a laundry list of complaints about the Left but no actual course of action.

I'm listening to him and waiting for him to explain.

He complains about people in center being vilified by the left. But what exactly does he think the people in the center are saying? What is the moderate position on refugees? Immigrants? Discrimination? We all know what the Far left and right positions are on these subjects. so one has to assume that the center position must include some of both. Right?

For example, Angola has just decided to outlaw Islam, and shut down all mosques. They could have decided to execute anyone practicing Islam so does that make their decision reasonable and centrist? Doesn't this still count as persecution and discrimination though?

Anyway, You are reading more into my posts than I perhaps intended.

 

[whichphilosophy]

It's easy to blame your simplistic boogeymen rather than deal with the real issues at hand. Sentiments like these will only empower the right wing authoritarians. You give them the succor they crave - an enemy they feel is worth fighting against. And not without some reason, I must add, there are legitimate concerns with the stances you take. Give the right wing authoritarians even an inch of legitimacy, and they'll take it a mile. Further, it's the failure of the left to acknowledge even the inch of legitimacy that makes it so these right wing authoritarians become the sole dissenting voice on the matter, which allows them to attract far more followers and allows them to take the position to extremes. The non right-wing authoritarian dissenters on any position the left holds dear are demonized by the left as insufficiently pure, purging those voices from the discussion.

Where are the dissenters on the right? Why aren't the "right" thinking conservatives out in the streets counter protesting the fascists? If the left is so useless, why isn't the right doing something about their own "kith and kin?"

They do tend to splinter up due to internal dissent. A good example of that is the UK where the British National Party became a mainstream party with 2 seats in the European polls. Then after internal disputes to remove its leader it ended up in oblivion.

 

[Bomb#20]

Firstly I didn't accuse him of advocating discriminating, disenfranchising or persecuting people. I inferred that he perhaps wants an end to criticisms of people who advocate those things.

Right -- by which inference you were implying that anybody who fails the regressive left's purity test is advocating those things. There can be little doubt that Axulus fails their purity test.

Secondly, Do you have any evidence that Auxlus doesn't advocate discrimination, disenfranchisement or persecution?

You mean, other than reading thousands of his posts? I've been on this forum almost as long as he has and I don't recall ever seeing him advocate those things.

I've asked him to verify what he actually wants the left to do, because he's been a little bit vague. He offers a laundry list of complaints about the Left but no actual course of action.

I'm listening to him and waiting for him to explain.

He complains about people in center being vilified by the left.

Well then, I don't know, out on a limb here, maybe this is the peyote talking, but it sounds like he probably actually wants leftists to stop insinuating that a person is a bigot if they have no evidence against her other than the circumstance that she's not a leftist.

But what exactly does he think the people in the center are saying? What is the moderate position on refugees? Immigrants? Discrimination? We all know what the Far left and right positions are on these subjects. so one has to assume that the center position must include some of both. Right?

For example, Angola has just decided to outlaw Islam, and shut down all mosques. They could have decided to execute anyone practicing Islam so does that make their decision reasonable and centrist? Doesn't this still count as persecution and discrimination though?

If you want to know specifically what he thinks the people in the center are saying he'll have to speak for himself. But it seems to me the center position is to want your country to have a normal sane immigration policy like normal sane countries have, where the underlying goal of your immigration policy is to do what's in the best interests of your country's inhabitants, which was what your government was supposed to be basing policy in general on in the first place. So you take in a moderate number of immigrants and give preference to the ones you think aren't going to cost you more than they'll contribute.

Why would one have to assume that the center position consists of some of both of two extreme positions? Centrists don't need to cobble together a position by mixing a little No-Muslims-Arabs-or-Blacks with a little The-public-are-beasts-of-burden-for-making-ruling-elitists-feel-good-about-themselves. For moderates, the point is to do what's sensible. Looking for unsensible people to imitate strikes me as a rather poor algorithm for doing that.

 

[Underseer]

Every year tens of thousands of Poles attend a nationalist march in Warsaw. It's an event that has the people of Poland's capital city staying indoors.

Since its inception, far-right football fans - or 'ultras' - turn violent against the police, and the march becomes a ferocious battle between hooligans and the state. This year, however, something is different.

A right wing government is elected on the eve of the march. How will this affect this traditionally bloody parade?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnC-zSdMSRo[/youtube]

Right wing authoritarianism, nationalism, and xenophobia has crept up upon us, and the left has been completely useless throughout this whole development, obsessing over their "microagressions", "the patriarchy", "white privilege", calling people racists and bigots and Islamophobes who don't pass their purity tests, rearranging the deck chairs as the Titanic sinks. They are unwilling to challenge right-wing authoritarian ideology when it comes from the Muslim community but are hypersensitive to the point of aggravating annoyance to any hint of it from the right in the dominant culture, which means pretty much the only voice anyone hears challenging right-wing Islamist theocracy ideology is from the nutty, bigoted authoritarian right.

The left has also vastly underestimated people's right-wing inclinations to have pride in one's own culture and nation and the irrational fears of these being destroyed or fundamentally changed in some perceived fashion. They sneer at the very idea rather than attempt to channel these feelings into something positive that satisfies the inclination in a non-xenophobic, non-racist, non-bigoted direction.

I've also noticed a sharp rise in pro right-wing authoritarian comments throughout various internet sites, such as YouTube and news sites. The problem is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better, along with Islamist terrorism. The world is just at the earliest stages of these developments.

So you are "opposed" to right wing authoritarianism, yet when we on the left complain about citizens getting gunned down in the streets or carted off to Guantanamo, or demonizing immigrants, or the suggestion that we use police state surveillance on Muslims or other minorities, we are "whining about white privilege."

But you're really "concerned" about right wing authoritarianism.

Make up your damn mind, will you? Do you support right wing authoritarianism, or oppose it?

 

[repoman]

Let Hitler be your hype man. Who needs coffee or cocaine when you can listen to a speech like this?



This is a brilliantly effective speech in that he counterpoints the idea of rootless Juden against rooted Germans. This is excellent demagoguery.

 

[faded_Glory]

This is a brilliantly effective speech in that he counterpoints the idea of rootless Juden against rooted Germans. This is excellent demagoguery.

The kind of people who are enthused by a speech like this are the kind that think they have problems, that these problems are all caused by minority groups, 'those people over there who are different from us', and that attacking and suppressing such groups is going to solve everything. Never ever will they turn a critical eye on themselves and the moral value of their intolerant convictions, never ever will they consider if the effects of what they propose might be far worse than the 'problems' in the first place. The real problems begin once they turn their ideas into actions. The idea that such people can be voted into power via democratic elections is truly scary for the rest of us.