Roe v Wade is on deck

[Lion IRC]

If there is a God as you describe, He's the biggest abortionist ever.

I don't accept that God performs abortions.

Why? Do you *know* that he doesn't, or just don't like the idea that he might? How can we ever know if he does or does not perform abortions?

Well, for starters we could what rational skeptics suggest. Look for empirical evidence to see who or what causes the thing in question.

 

[TomC]

Do you claim that I'm misrepresenting their clearly stated position on unrestricted access to abortion on demand?

You can post anything you want.
I'm pretty prolife. I'm also pretty opposed to government overreach.

PP has prevented millions of abortions. Far more than all the sermons and shaming since they came to exist. They do it the moral way. Information, access, sliding scale fees, safe place. No coercive bullshit, like you and your government buddies getting involved in people's lives.

There are ways to prevent abortions by preventing crisis pregnancies. Why do you insist on the government overreach method?
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

Never heard of it. Sorry.

Never heard of what?
Tom

The Arizona 1864 Law.

 

[TomC]

Because I dont think God causes what you describe.

God killed my baby, if there is a God like you describe.

I just described Him as NOT being that sort of God. That's my description.

Nonsense.
Nobody killed my baby unless God did. The all-powerful God you think exists did it, or else nobody did.
It did happen though and I know that much.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

There are ways to prevent abortions by preventing crisis pregnancies. Why do you insist on the government overreach method?

I don't think it's overreach for someone to try and reduce the number of abortions by either public education or legislation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This video is horrifying.

Yes. It really makes you think, doesn't it.
Life and death.
Hard to believe the abortion debate revolves around whether killing other human beings is or isn't OK

This fails badly because abortion is being held to a higher standard than self defense. Women are being refused abortions in situations that would otherwise be considered justifiable homicide.

I dont understand the connection to self-defence or homicide. Who else apart from the unborn baby needs defending from homicide?

In general you may use deadly force in self defense if you have a reasonable belief of imminent harm from not doing so. However, we are seeing women being turned away because the threat isn't beyond a shadow of a doubt, or because the threat isn't imminent enough even if the threat is certain. The woman has to wait until she's in the ICU even when there is no other possible outcome.

<God throws Lion out of a plane with a baby hanging on. The baby isn't going to be able to hold on through the opening shock so you must not pull the chute until you're 800' above the ground. To pull at 1,000' is murder.>

 

[Lion IRC]

Are we going to have a look at the scientific evidence for what causes miscarriage?

Sure.
The problem is that usually nobody knows....

Nobody killed my baby unless God did. The all-powerful God you think exists did it, or else nobody did.

Do I take it that you don't want to look at the scientific evidence?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do my eyes deceive me or are you agreeing that late term abortions should be banned? Because those aren't invisible blobs of protoplasm. Would you agree to heartbeat bill abortion bans? An unborn baby with a heartbeat isn't an invisible blob of protoplasm.

Do you realize that late term abortions are always because something's wrong? No doctor is going to perform an abortion when delivery of a reasonably healthy baby is a viable alternative. The abortions are because of severe defects or factors incompatible with life.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, no, there is NOT an equally large cohort who believe that conception ends all choice for a woman. Pro choice outnumber anti-abortion rights by a significant percentage.

But even if there were: a woman should have authority over her own body.

And note that the vast majority of those "anti-abortion" people actually want to punish the slut, it's not truly about abortion. Look at how they stand on cases of rape or incest.

 

[TomC]

There are ways to prevent abortions by preventing crisis pregnancies. Why do you insist on the government overreach method?

I don't think it's overreach for someone to try and reduce the number of abortions by either public education or legislation.

Do you see an important difference between education and empowerment compared to the government forcing things on people?
I certainly do.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

In general you may use deadly force in self defense if you have a reasonable belief of imminent harm from not doing so. However, we are seeing women being turned away because the threat isn't beyond a shadow of a doubt, or because the threat isn't imminent enough even if the threat is certain.

So the analogy would be...I can do something which will absolutely and unquestionably end the life of another human despite that human being neither an imminent nor certain cause of my death - absolutely and unquestionably.

Isn't this a violation of proportionality when it comes to lethal self defence?

Shouldnt we err on the side of...your pregnancy isnt unquestionably going to killl you but an abortion will unquestionably kill the unborn.

<God throws Lion out of a plane with a baby hanging on. The baby isn't going to be able to hold on through the opening shock so you must not pull the chute until you're 800' above the ground. To pull at 1,000' is murder.>

There's easier ways than this to present the abortion trolley dilemma.

If we are certain we can only save one life, there's nothing immoral saving one life because we didn't choose to end the other.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Pro choice outnumber anti-abortion rights by a significant percentage.

If youre talking about the USA, I thought the majority of Americans opposed absolute, unlimited, no-questions-asked, abortion on demand all the way up to 36 weeks.

That is the abortion lobby's position is it not? Elective abortion on demand without any gestational age limit. That's what pro-choice means right?

I think you need to fact check your claim.

No. I also think you need to check your facts.

OK
Is Pew Research May 2022 sufficient for you?

According to them, only 19% say it should be legal on demand irrespective of gestational age.

That means the majority of Americans (surveyed) oppose absolute, unlimited, no-questions-asked, abortion on demand all the way up to 36 weeks.

Wow your framing is dishonest.

Like, "in most cases" is a very strong statement that the chart dishonestly looks away from in the title.

What's dishonest about this?

The question is flawed (it should break it down by time) but they continue to use it for consistency (so answers can be compared to historical ones.)

That 61% clearly does not think the fetus is a person. And that 27% is the ones who consider rape/incest a reason--they're about punishing the slut, not about the fetus. That gives 88% who do not consider the fetus a person. 2% no answer, that leaves about 9:1 towards the fetus not being a person--and 80% of those are clearly out of touch with the facts as they pretend they aren't passing death sentences.

 

[Toni]

Pro choice outnumber anti-abortion rights by a significant percentage.

If youre talking about the USA, I thought the majority of Americans opposed absolute, unlimited, no-questions-asked, abortion on demand all the way up to 36 weeks.

That is the abortion lobby's position is it not? Elective abortion on demand without any gestational age limit. That's what pro-choice means right?

I think you need to fact check your claim.

No. I also think you need to check your facts.

OK
Is Pew Research May 2022 sufficient for you?

According to them, only 19% say it should be legal on demand irrespective of gestational age.

That means the majority of Americans (surveyed) oppose absolute, unlimited, no-questions-asked, abortion on demand all the way up to 36 weeks.

That’s pretty stupid. Count me in as thinking abortion should not always be legal.

Anyone who thinks abortion should be legal past a point of viability, has also gone astray. Not necessarily as wacky as the “no exceptions” loonies, but morally chsllenged nonetheless. The number of viable babies that are legally aborted is minimal if not nonexistent.

Late term abortions happen when there is a very grave condition of the fetus that would prevent the fetus from surviving and would put the mother’s life and/or health at serious risk. Late term abortions account for only a very small number of abortions performed.

Law is not the only limiting factor: one has to find a doctor and facility willing to terminate the pregnancy involving a non-viable fetus. This is not easy to do. Nor is this an easy decision for the parents to make. Usually, in such cases, the child was very much wanted.

 

[Lion IRC]

Do you realize that late term abortions are always because something's wrong? No doctor is going to perform an abortion when delivery of a reasonably healthy baby is a viable alternative. The abortions are because of severe defects or factors incompatible with life.

...which is a red herring in the abortion debate, a) because most abortions have nothing to do with severe defects, and b) because bodily autonomy and wimmins rights are the central pillars of the abortion-on-demand lobby's case - not Down Syndrome eugenics or gender screening.

And note that the vast majority of those "anti-abortion" people actually want to punish the slut, it's not truly about abortion.

Well, you'll have to find someone who thinks that if thats the argument you're looking for.
For me, it's truly about abortion - killing innocent unborn humans.

Look at how they stand on cases of rape or incest.

Joe Biden thinks we need abortion law exemptions for under-age rape victims and incest - ie. under-age rape victims.
I think most rapists and pedophiles would agree with Joe.

 

[Jarhyn]

Pro choice outnumber anti-abortion rights by a significant percentage.

If youre talking about the USA, I thought the majority of Americans opposed absolute, unlimited, no-questions-asked, abortion on demand all the way up to 36 weeks.

That is the abortion lobby's position is it not? Elective abortion on demand without any gestational age limit. That's what pro-choice means right?

I think you need to fact check your claim.

No. I also think you need to check your facts.

OK
Is Pew Research May 2022 sufficient for you?

According to them, only 19% say it should be legal on demand irrespective of gestational age.

That means the majority of Americans (surveyed) oppose absolute, unlimited, no-questions-asked, abortion on demand all the way up to 36 weeks.

Wow your framing is dishonest.

Like, "in most cases" is a very strong statement that the chart dishonestly looks away from in the title.

What's dishonest about this?

The question is flawed (it should break it down by time) but they continue to use it for consistency (so answers can be compared to historical ones.)

That 61% clearly does not think the fetus is a person. And that 27% is the ones who consider rape/incest a reason--they're about punishing the slut, not about the fetus. That gives 88% who do not consider the fetus a person. 2% no answer, that leaves about 9:1 towards the fetus not being a person--and 80% of those are clearly out of touch with the facts as they pretend they aren't passing death sentences.

"Majority say should be illegal in some cases" when the "majority doesn't agree that fetuses are people, majority says most abortion is ethically OK".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you claim that I'm misrepresenting their clearly stated position on unrestricted access to abortion on demand?

You can post anything you want.
I'm pretty prolife. I'm also pretty opposed to government overreach.

PP has prevented millions of abortions. Far more than all the sermons and shaming since they came to exist. They do it the moral way. Information, access, sliding scale fees, safe place. No coercive bullshit, like you and your government buddies getting involved in people's lives.

There are ways to prevent abortions by preventing crisis pregnancies. Why do you insist on the government overreach method?
Tom

But that lets the sluts get away with it! Completely unacceptable!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are ways to prevent abortions by preventing crisis pregnancies. Why do you insist on the government overreach method?

I don't think it's overreach for someone to try and reduce the number of abortions by either public education or legislation.

You realize that PP has reduced the number of abortions more than the so-called PL people??

Countries where abortion is illegal have higher abortion rates than countries where it's legal. The real answer is avoiding unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

 

[bilby]

If there is a God as you describe, He's the biggest abortionist ever.

I don't accept that God performs abortions.

Why? Do you *know* that he doesn't, or just don't like the idea that he might? How can we ever know if he does or does not perform abortions?

Well, for starters we could what rational skeptics suggest. Look for empirical evidence to see who or what causes the thing in question.

Well, when we do that, we discover no evidence whatsoever that god causes abortion. Or literally anything else.

So are you planning to make the rational decision to stop attributing God as a cause of anything?

 

[bilby]

So the analogy would be...I can do something which will absolutely and unquestionably end the life of another human despite that human being neither an imminent nor certain cause of my death - absolutely and unquestionably.

A living mass of human cells with no functional brain isn't "another human", and if it were, circumcision would be murder.

Do you campaign as vigourously against circumcision as you do against abortion?

If not, your claim to oppose abortion on the grounds that it represents "do[ing] something which will absolutely and unquestionably end the life of another human" is hollow, and depends upon an ideosyncratic and stupid definition of what constitutes "another human".

What, in your opinion, makes a fetus "another human", but someone else's foreskin not "another human"?

 

[Lion IRC]

You realize that PP has reduced the number of abortions more than the so-called PL people??

Dont agree.
Besides you have to subtract from that number the corresponding number of abortions they have facilitated by their various methods and advocacy.
If they prevent 100 but facilitate 1000 thats a nett increase in abortion.

Countries where abortion is illegal have higher abortion rates than countries where it's legal.

Dont agree.
In any case, I think the absolute number is a more important measure than the rate (per capita)

The real answer is avoiding unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

That won't change the philosophical bedrock argument used by the abortion on demand lobby. They wouldn't surrender the supposed 'right' to abortion no matter how little demand there was.