Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

I wonder if Tom understands that in the way he didn't exist 4 billion years ago, he also didn't exist 4 picoseconds ago.

He didn't not exist. All of his existence was getting ready to be him then, same as it was getting ready to be him 4 picoseconds ago, and then it became the him of now.

I'm glad you mentioned this. It's important.

The value of a human individual is not their past. It's their potential in the future. All the stuff that individual might think, do, feel, whatever. It's all about human potential.

People draw arbitrary lines in human development. From implantation, to heartbeat, the brain activity, to birth. But those are all arbitrary divisions between the value of the human at the moment and the human potential of the individual. The potential of a healthy 20 something is more obvious, and actualizing their potential less of a burden on others. But it's the same basic thing, choosing death for one is destroying their potential not their history.

I appreciate your help explaining this.
Tom

Are you saying that the divisions themselves are arbitrary or the value we assign different stages are arbitrary?

 

[Elixir]

I wonder if Tom understands that in the way he didn't exist 4 billion years ago, he also didn't exist 4 picoseconds ago.

He didn't not exist. All of his existence was getting ready to be him then, same as it was getting ready to be him 4 picoseconds ago, and then it became the him of now.

I'm glad you mentioned this. It's important.

The value of a human individual is not their past. It's their potential in the future. All the stuff that individual might think, do, feel, whatever. It's all about human potential.

People draw arbitrary lines in human development. From implantation, to heartbeat, the brain activity, to birth. But those are all arbitrary divisions between the value of the human at the moment and the human potential of the individual. The potential of a healthy 20 something is more obvious, and actualizing their potential less of a burden on others. But it's the same basic thing, choosing death for one is destroying their potential not their history.

I appreciate your help explaining this.
Tom

Are you saying that the divisions themselves are arbitrary or the value we assign different stages are arbitrary?

I think he's saying that the future is important and the past is not, so if you kill someone just wait a little while and it won't matter. What was their future would have become their past by then. Just like the trumpers dismissing COVID deaths, citing comorbidity factors: "Hey, they were going to die soon anyhow..."

IOW, BULLSHIT!

 

[TomC]

I can only imagine how important this zygote would be if they could form in human males.

Well, you've managed to elicit another boring true story out of this old curmudgeon. Getting pregnant was what changed me from Pro-choice to Pro-life.

I graduated from high school in 1976, shortly after RoevWade. I was the product of a conservative Catholic family and 12 years of Catholic education. I'd heard both sides of the discussion for years. I was convinced that abortion was a medical choice, nobody's business but a woman and her doctor. Then I got pregnant.

More precisely of course, my high school girl friend got pregnant. But I knew perfectly well I was the father and we were in this together.
We'd been a little cavalier about birth control. She couldn't use the Pill, but she used a spermicidal jelly and told me when I needed a condom because it wasn't a safe time in her menstrual cycle. You know what you call people who rely on the rhythm method? "Parents"

It started slow. She mentioned her period was a bit late. Unusual, but not unheard of. A week later we started realizing that we might have a problem. A week after that we started to panic. We knew we were parents.

Over the next two weeks we considered the options. We were both poor college students depending on summer jobs and student loans to pay for our school habits. We'd both have to drop out. We were both from the kind of families that adopt kids in, we don't adopt them out. Abortion became increasingly clear as the least worst option.
Just as we started looking for a way to get one, her period came back with a vengeance. We both knew what that meant. Our dilemma was over. Believe me, we got religious about birth control.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had happened. We'd made choices that resulted in making a baby. But we were so badly prepared for the responsibility of a child we'd decided to off our own kid rather than take the responsibility. That was utterly clear. It didn't take long for my pro feticide rights views to flip to strongly opposed.

Believe it or not, the hard surfaces and jagged edges of my opinions as a 20 year old have been softened and ground off with 40+ more years of experience. But the lesson about sex, procreation, and responsibility has stuck with me.
Tom

 

[TomC]

I wonder if Tom understands that in the way he didn't exist 4 billion years ago, he also didn't exist 4 picoseconds ago.

He didn't not exist. All of his existence was getting ready to be him then, same as it was getting ready to be him 4 picoseconds ago, and then it became the him of now.

I'm glad you mentioned this. It's important.

The value of a human individual is not their past. It's their potential in the future. All the stuff that individual might think, do, feel, whatever. It's all about human potential.

People draw arbitrary lines in human development. From implantation, to heartbeat, the brain activity, to birth. But those are all arbitrary divisions between the value of the human at the moment and the human potential of the individual. The potential of a healthy 20 something is more obvious, and actualizing their potential less of a burden on others. But it's the same basic thing, choosing death for one is destroying their potential not their history.

I appreciate your help explaining this.
Tom

Are you saying that the divisions themselves are arbitrary or the value we assign different stages are arbitrary?

Maybe if I bold the relevant parts it will improve reading comprehension.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Brilliant!

My stance on this position is in gross opposition to the decisions I made.

True anecdotal story. I was pro-choice before I got married. I was pro-choice before my wife got pregnant. I was pro-choice after our daughter was born. I remain pro-choice 8 year into her life. I sure the fuck don't want a person that took advantage of abortion being legal to force my daughter to give birth to a child.

 

[TomC]

I think he's saying that the future is important and the past is not, so if you kill someone just wait a little while and it won't matter. What was their future would have become their past by then. Just like the trumpers dismissing COVID deaths, citing comorbidity factors: "Hey, they were going to die soon anyhow..."

IOW, BULLSHIT!

It's just the opposite.

People who think the old and sick aren't important enough to give up their freedom for aren't morally different from people who think the young and vulnerable aren't worth giving up their freedom for.

Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

Here's the compromise.

People opposed to abortion will never be forced to get one.

Right. And people opposed to same sex 'marriage' should never be forced to do stuff they dont want to either. Like catering gay weddings.

And people opposed to sharing public rest rooms with transgengers shouldn't be forced to.

And of course slave owners shouldn't be forced to pick their own bales of cotton. Nobody has the right to tell a slave owner what they should do with their own zygote personal property.

 

[Toni]

Are you saying that the divisions themselves are arbitrary or the value we assign different stages are arbitrary?

Maybe if I bold the relevant parts it will improve reading comprehension.
Tom

My reading comprehension is just fine. I just wanted to be certain of what you meant.

The divisions between different developmental stages are not arbitrary and are well defined and well characterized.

 

[none]

I can only imagine how important this zygote would be if they could form in human males.

Well, you've managed to elicit another boring true story out of this old curmudgeon. Getting pregnant was what changed me from Pro-choice to Pro-life.

I graduated from high school in 1976, shortly after RoevWade. I was the product of a conservative Catholic family and 12 years of Catholic education. I'd heard both sides of the discussion for years. I was convinced that abortion was a medical choice, nobody's business but a woman and her doctor. Then I got pregnant.

More precisely of course, my high school girl friend got pregnant. But I knew perfectly well I was the father and we were in this together.
We'd been a little cavalier about birth control. She couldn't use the Pill, but she used a spermicidal jelly and told me when I needed a condom because it wasn't a safe time in her menstrual cycle. You know what you call people who rely on the rhythm method? "Parents"

It started slow. She mentioned her period was a bit late. Unusual, but not unheard of. A week later we started realizing that we might have a problem. A week after that we started to panic. We knew we were parents.

Over the next two weeks we considered the options. We were both poor college students depending on summer jobs and student loans to pay for our school habits. We'd both have to drop out. We were both from the kind of families that adopt kids in, we don't adopt them out. Abortion became increasingly clear as the least worst option.
Just as we started looking for a way to get one, her period came back with a vengeance. We both knew what that meant. Our dilemma was over. Believe me, we got religious about birth control.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had happened. We'd made choices that resulted in making a baby. But we were so badly prepared for the responsibility of a child we'd decided to off our own kid rather than take the responsibility. That was utterly clear. It didn't take long for my pro feticide rights views to flip to strongly opposed.

Believe it or not, the hard surfaces and jagged edges of my opinions as a 20 year old have been softened and ground off with 40+ more years of experience. But the lesson about sex, procreation, and responsibility has stuck with me.
Tom

You got pregnant?
Problem?

 

[TomC]

You got pregnant?
Problem?

We got pregnant.
Yes, it was a problem.
Tom

 

[none]

You got pregnant?
Problem?

We got pregnant.
Yes, it was a problem.
Tom

No, you got someone pregnant...quibble.. qiibble..
Why was that a problem?

 

[Toni]

You got pregnant?
Problem?

We got pregnant.
Yes, it was a problem.
Tom

You were never pregnant. Your girlfriend may or may not have been pregnant. Unless there was a positive pregnancy test that indicated pregnancy.

You had a pregnancy scare.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You got pregnant?
Problem?

We got pregnant.
Yes, it was a problem.
Tom

You were never pregnant. Your girlfriend may or may not have been pregnant. Unless there was a positive pregnancy test that indicated pregnancy.

You had a pregnancy scare.

His description looks very much like an early miscarriage.

 

[Toni]

You were never pregnant. Your girlfriend may or may not have been pregnant. Unless there was a positive pregnancy test that indicated pregnancy.

You had a pregnancy scare.

His description looks very much like an early miscarriage.

Yes, it does . It also sounds very much like most of my periods before I was sexually active Andalusia most of my periods years later after I had a tubal ligation. And Ike my early miscarriage. But TomC was never pregnant. His girlfriend may or may not have been.

 

[TomC]

You were never pregnant. Your girlfriend may or may not have been pregnant. Unless there was a positive pregnancy test that indicated pregnancy.

You had a pregnancy scare.

His description looks very much like an early miscarriage.

It was.
I didn't include every detail in the description of an episode in my personal life. My post was already rather long, and I did have a point.

But for many posters, it's obviously easier to assume that I'm ignorant, mistaken, or lying than respond to my point.

I don't talk about this subject much in real life. It's not an opinion that's popular with my knee jerk liberal friends. Nor is my opinion about the Bible popular with my knee jerk conservative friends. My real friends are the people who can stay focused on what we have in common.

Internet forums are different. From abortion to the Invasion of Iraq, I'm much more inclined to express my unpopular opinions. This thread is little distinguishable from many I've participated in before. Semantics, irrelevant analogies, emotional anecdotes, and insults. I'm used to it. But I kinda have to be in a mood for tilting at windmills.
Sometimes I am.
Tom

 

[James Madison]

I very much believe generally the State isn’t to decide whether someone is to have an abortion by enacting laws prohibiting abortion, and this right is in the 9th Amendment. However, the generality is balanced against the idea of the State protecting the fetus from abortion at some point isn’t an absurd idea.

Unable to diagram this sentence.

Well, try focusing on the plain language of what was said, rather than resorting to ostentation by the use of the word “diagram” in the phrase “unable to diagram this sentence” for the purpose of casting aspersions.

What exactly do you not understand what was said?

 

[James Madison]

I very much believe generally the State isn’t to decide whether someone is to have an abortion by enacting laws prohibiting abortion, and this right is in the 9th Amendment. However, the generality is balanced against the idea of the State protecting the fetus from abortion at some point isn’t an absurd idea.

Unable to diagram this sentence.

He's trying to use sophistry to hide the simple form of:

The state shouldn't tell a woman she can't have an abortion BUT (canned justification for democratizing womb slavery)

And you ruined a very good reading of what I said with the adorably hyperbolic phrase “womb slavery.” That was sophistry. Much like it was sophistry to use the word “parasite” in regards to the fetus and someone on the same side of the issue as you called you out on that one.

 

[untermensche]

The issue of parasite is on the side of those who say a developing fetus is most definitely living as a parasite.

 

[Jarhyn]

He's trying to use sophistry to hide the simple form of:

The state shouldn't tell a woman she can't have an abortion BUT (canned justification for democratizing womb slavery)

And you ruined a very good reading of what I said with the adorably hyperbolic phrase “womb slavery.” That was sophistry. Much like it was sophistry to use the word “parasite” in regards to the fetus and someone on the same side of the issue as you called you out on that one.

No, I just laid your pile of stinking words bare.

And let me be clear: I will treat any attempt to force a woman to bear a child as such, with the full force that any "good" person with conviction would do in response to any thing that rightly fits under that word. I do not bandy it about. I use it like a hot pointed lance into a boil of festering filth prettied up with flower petals and incense. I would go to war. I have become a soldier for less.

 

[Toni]

The issue of parasite is on the side of those who say a developing fetus is most definitely living as a parasite.

Not by definition of the word parasite.