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Roe v Wade is on deck

Note that this doesn't say pain at 10 weeks, it says there can't be pain before 10 weeks.

Lion's article sez lack of cortical connections before 24 weeks implies that pain is not possible until after 24 weeks. Again, that doesn't mean pain at 24 weeks...
and it can only imply until some 26 week premie to comes out of the birth canal cussing like a sailor about the terrible pain (s)he has been in for the last ??? weeks.
 
Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb. Neo natal medicine has exposed the plain reality that premmie babies born at 22 or 21 weeks are living human beings. If you killed a premmie baby in a maternity ward, you would go to jail for murder.

Likewise, science has provided evidence - empirical, repeatable, evidence - that unborn babies respond to external stimuli as early as 6 weeks from conception. The myth that embryos feel no pain has been falsified by science.

#IFLS


The severed legs of dead frogs respond to electrical stimuli. Does this mean that the severed legs of dead frogs feel pain?
 
This paper does not say what you think it does.


What? Are you suggesting that the poster was making up shit? I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

Less that than someone was regurgitating stuff they didn’t understand because ~snip~

… because they were impressed by it without undrstanding it, and they thought others would be impressed by it, too.
 
From your own source:

article said:
Specialised nerve terminals, nociceptors, are likely to detect surgical tissue damage from early in fetal life (around 10 weeks for the skin and 13 weeks for the internal organs). These nociceptors gradually mature over the next 6–8 weeks and the strength of their signals increases over fetal life. The presence of nociceptors is necessary for perception of acute surgical pain and so pain is clearly not possible before the nociceptors first appear at 10 weeks.

Note that this doesn't say pain at 10 weeks, it says there can't be pain before 10 weeks.

Here's what it says....

"Anatomical studies of human fetal skin shows the presence of nerve terminals and fibres deep in the skin from 6 weeks of gestational age."

Able to be detected as early as 6 weeks. Nerves.

"These terminals are not [mature] nociceptors..."

Sure. But so what?
Call them whatever you like. They are sensory nerves endings.

[nociceptors]"...are specialised for the processing of non-damaging sensations such as touch, vibration and temperature, rather than pain."

Note that these are described as being "specialised" for sensations.
...at 6 weeks.
...a living human.

Note that "specialised for" does NOT mean "used exclusively for".
And that "non-damaging sensations" does NOT mean "not painful".

The touch, vibration and temperature experienced - sensed - by these specialised nerve endings can be either painful or pleasant or neutral, and it can still be claimed that no "damage" is done. This is equally true for children who have already been born. Would anyone (other than a pedophile) argue that "non-damaging" touching is equivalent to neutral, painless sensory experience?

"Non-damaging" high temperatures can be pleasurable in some circumstances and painful/unpleasant in other circumstances. The same goes for "non-damaging" low temperatures.

This study shows that, as early as 6 weeks, the fetus has specialised nerve endings which can experience "non-damaging" sensations. That these sensory nerve endings are already starting to become "specialised" to some degree does not mean that...therefore the temperature experienced isn't painful, the touch being experienced isn't painful, the vibration being experienced isn't painful.

The precise point at which non-damaging temperature, touch, vibration becomes unpleasant is a matter of degree. The fact that the study specifies "non-damaging" should tell you something.


"From 10 weeks, nerve terminals become more numerous and extend towards the outer surface of the skin."

This is simply another way of saying nerve terminals continue becoming even more numerous after 6 weeks. Not less. We don't have the scientific tools needed to detect and precisely measure what happens earlier than six weeks, but we certainly know that from at least six weeks onwards this sensory ability increases. 6 weeks, 7 weeks, 8 weeks, 9 weeks. It's not like everything remains static until you get to some magical 10 week milestone.

Functional, sensory nerve terminals are extant from at least as early as 6 weeks.

."The terminals closer to the surface are likely to be immature nociceptors, necessary for pain experience following tissue damage..."

Read that carefully. Those nerve terminals detected as early as six weeks and becoming more numerous over the 6, 7, 8, 9 to 10 week timeframe are likely to be nociceptors - immature or otherwise.
Note the term pain experience. The way we verify pain sensation is by looking for fetal response to some given stimuli. And note that my claim was that the fetus responds to external stimuli- painful or otherwise, non-damaging or otherwise - from as early as six weeks.

"but they [mature nociceptors] are not unequivocally present until 17 weeks."

Sure. So what?
This simply means that the case for fetal pain sensory capacity gets more and more undeniable as time goes by...6, 7, 8, 9, 10 weeks...11, 12, 13 14 weeks...

Unequivocally true. No semantics or disambiguation about non-damaging touch, unpleasant temperatures, annoying vibration. No quibbling about whether an 'immature' nociceptor really is a nociceptor. From six weeks onwards, the case for fetal respose to external stimuli - painful or pleasant - becomes increasingly UNAMBIGUOUS.

"...In other mammals, newly formed fetal nociceptors are able to signal tissue damage but the intensity of their signals is weaker than in adults"

More verification that fetal pain signals are experienced - however weak or otherwise.

...science has provided evidence - empirical, repeatable, evidence - that unborn babies respond to external stimuli as early as 6 weeks from conception. The myth that embryos feel no pain has been falsified by science.
 
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Here's what it says....

The problem is you are using bits here without understanding and without looking the conclusions they draw from the information. And that conclusion is still 24 weeks for pain to be possible.

You are also making the invalid jump from "respond to external stimuli" as "feel pain".

I have dropped a pot holder on the counter and heard the fire under the pot react.

The fire on my stove feels pain?!
 
Here's what it says....

The problem is you are using bits here without understanding...

No, I understand their jargon and semantics quite well.

...without looking the conclusions they draw from the information. And that conclusion is still 24 weeks for pain to be possible.

You realise that it's the empirical data in the study that I'm referring to not the opinions about what those facts might mean.

They do not conclude that pain is impossible before 24 weeks.

They conclude that there is a difference between damaging and non-damaging external stimuli. Sure. Non-damaging touch, vibration, temperature might not be painful. So what?

They conclude that early/immature nociceptor nerve endings needed to feel pain are detected to already exist in the skin of 6 week old fetuses and these increase in number from 6 weeks onwards.

You are also making the invalid jump from "respond to external stimuli" as "feel pain".

It's perfectly valid to infer that the external stimuli of touch, temperature and vibration can be either painful or pleasant.

I have dropped a pot holder on the counter and heard the fire under the pot react.

The fire on my stove feels pain?!

Gee. Is that the best you got?
 
You realise that it's the empirical data in the study that I'm referring to not the opinions about what those facts might mean.

I realize that you are trying to say that you are better able to interpret what you read in the report, than are scientists who have studied and practiced for years specifically for that task.
Basically you are saying "I don't care about the science, I know what I think it means".

Yeh, there are nerve endings much earlier than 24 weeks. You seize upon that, and conflate the existence of nerve endings with the experience of pain.
That's not reality, it's religious fantasy.
There are nerve endings in severed fingers. But like in a fetus, there's no cortical connection. They're not connected to anything so they can't feel pain.
Why can't you get that?
Religion...
 
You realise that it's the empirical data in the study that I'm referring to not the opinions about what those facts might mean.

I realize that you are trying to say that you are better able to interpret what you read in the report, than are scientists who have studied and practiced for years specifically for that task.
Basically you are saying "I don't care about the science, I know what I think it means".

Yeh, there are nerve endings much earlier than 24 weeks. You seize upon that, and conflate the existence of nerve endings with the experience of pain.
That's not reality, it's religious fantasy.
There are nerve endings in severed fingers. But like in a fetus, there's no cortical connection. They're not connected to anything so they can't feel pain.
Why can't you get that?
Religion...

This is par for the course in women’s rights issues. Unqualified poeple proclaiming their opinion as fact.
Religious people, men who are not physicians, politicians who are not knowledgeable in biology.

They try to throw in emotional appeals and misquote educated voices to try to sway the policy.
 
You realise that it's the empirical data in the study that I'm referring to not the opinions about what those facts might mean.

I realize that you are trying to say that you are better able to interpret what you read in the report, than are scientists who have studied and practiced for years specifically for that task.
Basically you are saying "I don't care about the science, I know what I think it means".

Yeh, there are nerve endings much earlier than 24 weeks. You seize upon that, and conflate the existence of nerve endings with the experience of pain.
That's not reality, it's religious fantasy.
There are nerve endings in severed fingers. But like in a fetus, there's no cortical connection. They're not connected to anything so they can't feel pain.
Why can't you get that?
Religion...

This is par for the course in women’s rights issues. Unqualified poeple proclaiming their opinion as fact.
Religious people, men who are not physicians, politicians who are not knowledgeable in biology.

They try to throw in emotional appeals and misquote educated voices to try to sway the policy.

It is often said that Teh Stoopid™ should hurt more, and it's hard to disagree with that. But dishonest malevolence deserves a whole other level of pain.
Males trying to exert control over women's bodies while claiming to do so on behalf of non-sentient blobs of protoplasm, is the epitome of dishonest malevolence IMHO.

I believe an honest person who cited the article that Lion linked to as authoritative evidence regarding the question of fetal experience of pain, would either accept what the cited "authority" has to say about it or admit that it is not in fact authoritative and that it was a mistake to cite it as if it supported their a priori belief.
Here is what it actually said:

"There is good evidence that the fetus is sedated by the physical environment of the womb and usually does not awaken before birth"

This is neither a highly technical nor an ambiguous statement. It is how the article to which Lion refers as an authority, concludes. Yet, although this has been pointed out, Lion STILL wants to use the article as an authority, and represent that it actually says something other than what it says, intimating that he is somehow better educated on the subject than the 57 professionals and groups of professionals credited in the article's References section. This is the essence of religiosity and typifies its associated egotistical malevolence.
 
This is par for the course in women’s rights issues. Unqualified poeple proclaiming their opinion as fact.
Religious people, men who are not physicians, politicians who are not knowledgeable in biology.

They try to throw in emotional appeals and misquote educated voices to try to sway the policy.

It is often said that Teh Stoopid™ should hurt more, and it's hard to disagree with that. But dishonest malevolence deserves a whole other level of pain.
Males trying to exert control over women's bodies while claiming to do so on behalf of non-sentient blobs of protoplasm, is the epitome of dishonest malevolence IMHO.

People trying to exert control over other people's bodies on behalf of any non-sentient anything is pretty fucked up, no doubt. This is just one of the many things that fit the pattern.
 
No, I understand their jargon and semantics quite well.

No, because you cherry-pick the numbers you want out of it.

...without looking the conclusions they draw from the information. And that conclusion is still 24 weeks for pain to be possible.

You realise that it's the empirical data in the study that I'm referring to not the opinions about what those facts might mean.

They do not conclude that pain is impossible before 24 weeks.

You are focusing in the receptors, you're ignoring the fact they're not hooked up.

You are also making the invalid jump from "respond to external stimuli" as "feel pain".

It's perfectly valid to infer that the external stimuli of touch, temperature and vibration can be either painful or pleasant.

And you don't realize that there is a specific sensation of pain. No pain nerves = no pain. I've had a sensation of extreme temperature without the slightest pain when the dentist's needle hit the nerve.

I have dropped a pot holder on the counter and heard the fire under the pot react.

The fire on my stove feels pain?!

Gee. Is that the best you got?

Disproof by counterexample. You are making the jump from "responds to external stimuli" to "feels pain". I presented an example of a reaction to an external stimuli in a situation where pain is obviously not a meaningful concept.
 
No, I understand their jargon and semantics quite well.

Apparently not, unless you are being deliberately dishonest. I don't think that you are.

...without looking the conclusions they draw from the information. And that conclusion is still 24 weeks for pain to be possible.

You realise that it's the empirical data in the study that I'm referring to not the opinions about what those facts might mean.

No, you are not doing that. You are misinterpreting words to mean what you want them to mean, without understanding (unless you are pretending you don't understand) what the words mean.
They do not conclude that pain is impossible before 24 weeks.

They conclude that there is a difference between damaging and non-damaging external stimuli. Sure. Non-damaging touch, vibration, temperature might not be painful. So what?

They conclude that early/immature nociceptor nerve endings needed to feel pain are detected to already exist in the skin of 6 week old fetuses and these increase in number from 6 weeks onwards.

You do not seem to understand the concept of necessary but not sufficient. A sperm is necessary to create a human being. An ovum is necessary to create a human being. Neither are sufficient, separately or even together to create a human being. Both are necessary but not sufficient. Just as precursor structures are necessary for actual nerve endings to develop.


It's perfectly valid to infer that the external stimuli of touch, temperature and vibration can be either painful or pleasant.
But immaterial.

Here is an image of a 6 week old human embryo (the woman is 8 weeks pregnant)
baby 6 weeks.jpeg

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/313728/view/human-embryo-6-weeks-old
 
Just wondering about how @Lion sees it.
Which one is more "human"?

View attachment 34368
View attachment 34580

I'm assuming that the images are of human embryos. The top one is, for certain. It's the same image I posted. At that stage of development, it is difficult to tell what species an embryo is by sight.

I assume those embryos are both human and I see them as human.

I also see it as a woman's choice whether or not to continue to carry any pregnancy. Full stop.
 
Not quite like the child sacrifice in Carthage, but it’ll do.

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link

article said:
In a few months, the Supreme Court will hear a case that gives the conservative justices an opportunity to overrule Roe v. Wade, allowing states to ban abortion at early stages of pregnancy. But Texas can’t wait that long. In May, the state’s Republican lawmakers passed a law known as SB 8 that outlaws abortion after six weeks. But SB 8 is unique: It empowers private citizens, not government officials, to enforce it. The measure allows any random stranger to bring a lawsuit in state court against any individual who “aids or abets” an abortion in Texas after six weeks. Anyone in the country may file such a suit against abortion “abettors” in any state court within Texas. If the plaintiff wins, they collect a minimum of $10,000 plus attorneys’ fees. And if they win a case against an abortion provider, the court must shut down that clinic. If the provider somehow prevails, they collect nothing, not even attorneys’ fees.
And we are at the precipice again. Tomorrow the Texas law is supposed to go into effect. As I think was previously stated, the new anti-abortion law puts the power in the hands of citizens to ban abortion... which umm.... is complete and utter bullshit.

But so was Plessy v Ferguson. And we await to see if SCOTUS will hold this law up. Troubles exist. Depending on how anal SCOTUS wants to be, there might be no standing for complaining about this law upon launch, Texas has thoroughly muddled this law up to make it technically harder to appeal. Certainly if SCOTUS allows this to run, we are seeing the enshrinement of a Radical Christian SCOTUS. And this ignores the whole 6-week thing, although I think it is 6-weeks to allow birth control pills to be legal, and of course, that'd be next. The only way SCOTUS can approve this going into effect is standing. There are no SCOTUS rulings that remotely say this legislation is legal.

I would say this, there is maybe one other out. Standing... again. This third party, in what universe can they have standing? Can a State Legislature say that an unimpacted third party can sue for anything? Can I sue the police over the shooting of someone I don't know?
 
And SCOTUS doesn't even shrug as wildly illegal bill goes into effect. All things equal, Federal Court would likely say it isn't legal, but I feel for the first doctor/staff that gets sued by a third party.

I'd be interested in what the legal eagles, including James Madison (not the founding father... he's dead, the Member here, who I believe is quite alive) here think about this concept of providing an unharmed third party the right to sue someone. It seems like a cheap parlor trick.

SCOTUS is supposed to rule on another case on Roe v Wade so maybe they are thinking they can just roll it together.The writing appears to be on the wall, the only question is how useless will precedence become. SCOTUS has ruled repeatedly in favor of the right of a woman to have an abortion. To overcome each of those rulings will take an incredible amount of finesse I think this court simply lacks. And really, I'm not certain it can be ruled easily on without leaving a lot of frayed fabric. I see no avenues to repeal Roe v Wade to state level that doesn't risk Griswold v Connecticut, and states get to choose what birth control options women can use.
 
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