Roe v Wade is on deck

[Jarhyn]

Bomb acts as if this is a thin farce of a law

I do nothing of the sort. You put words in my mouth, and I called you on it, and yet here you are trying to cram them back in. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You directly reference a thin farce of the application of the interstate commerce clause, even in the post you use. Bringing it up in the context makes the appearance that this is as thin as that farce you bring up.

Except it is not thin with respect to interstate abortion. It is as thick and meaty of an interstate commerce concern as ever there was.

 

[Bomb#20]

Texas law gives leverage of tort against those who help others secure an abortion.

So the actors are doing the act within the state of Texas?

My guess is this whole business of states evading constitutional limits by a legal fiction that they're outsourcing enforcement to private parties is going to go bye-bye the first time a blue state passes a law letting every citizen sue for $10,000 any gun dealer or gun manufacturer whose product gets used in a crime. And while that's winding its way through the courts, Texas will make it moot by passing its own Mississippi-style law and abandoning said no-longer-needed legal fiction.

 

[Gospel]

Texas law gives leverage of tort against those who help others secure an abortion.

So the actors are doing the act within the state of Texas?

My guess is this whole business of states evading constitutional limits by a legal fiction that they're outsourcing enforcement to private parties is going to go bye-bye the first time a blue state passes a law letting every citizen sue for $10,000 any gun dealer or gun manufacturer whose product gets used in a crime. And while that's winding its way through the courts, Texas will make it moot by passing its own Mississippi-style law and abandoning said no-longer-needed legal fiction.

It's looking more and more like the 1820ish through 30ish every day. The law-based proxy wars before the real war.

 

[Bomb#20]

Bomb acts as if this is a thin farce of a law

I do nothing of the sort. You put words in my mouth, and I called you on it, and yet here you are trying to cram them back in. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You directly reference a thin farce of the application of the interstate commerce clause, even in the post you use. Bringing it up in the context makes the appearance that this is as thin as that farce you bring up.

The post I "use"?!? The post I use for what? The post I use for addressing Jimmy's concern, not yours! Quit making believe I was arguing against you when I answered Jimmy. It's not all about you. For the love of god, get over yourself.

Except it is not thin with respect to interstate abortion. It is as thick and meaty of an interstate commerce concern as ever there was.

Nobody said it wasn't.

 

[Jarhyn]

Bomb acts as if this is a thin farce of a law

I do nothing of the sort. You put words in my mouth, and I called you on it, and yet here you are trying to cram them back in. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You directly reference a thin farce of the application of the interstate commerce clause, even in the post you use. Bringing it up in the context makes the appearance that this is as thin as that farce you bring up.

The post I "use"?!? The post I use for what? The post I use for addressing Jimmy's concern, not yours! Quit making believe I was arguing against you when I answered Jimmy. It's not all about you. For the love of god, get over yourself.

Except it is not thin with respect to interstate abortion. It is as thick and meaty of an interstate commerce concern as ever there was.

Nobody said it wasn't.

I might point out that you still have yet to say "it IS a thick meaty interstate commerce concern, way thicker and meatier by any measure than that particular farce."

Sometimes it's about what people avoid saying, you know?

It's a big legal federal court hammer against any such farces as Texas's, and it should be pushed through congress yesterday.

 

[bilby]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

 

[Jarhyn]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

You saying it's a bit "oh exploitable!"?

 

[Trausti]

Texas law gives leverage of tort against those who help others secure an abortion.

So the actors are doing the act within the state of Texas?

My guess is this whole business of states evading constitutional limits by a legal fiction that they're outsourcing enforcement to private parties is going to go bye-bye the first time a blue state passes a law letting every citizen sue for $10,000 any gun dealer or gun manufacturer whose product gets used in a crime. And while that's winding its way through the courts, Texas will make it moot by passing its own Mississippi-style law and abandoning said no-longer-needed legal fiction.

I don’t support the Texas enforcement scheme. My suspicion is that it was purposely ridiculous so as to prompt an appeal and let the Supreme Court revisit Roe. A state can’t use proxies to accomplish what it can’t do directly.

 

[Angry Floof]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

Doesn't seem at all fake to me. In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

 

[Jarhyn]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

Doesn't seem at all fake to me. In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

I've seen things go both ways. I wouldn't put it past... Well, any manner of bad faith, really, who might think they would benefit from faking the sentiment.

Still, it is unambiguously true that people in this thread have stated exact support for the sentiment, before and after the sign was displayed.

 

[blastula]

It's aa real known sentiment.

I wish my mother had aborted me - The Guardian

 

[abaddon]

... In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

I'm a man and share the sentiment.

It's not a matter of wishing I were dead. Now that I'm alive, I prefer being alive. But I'm not superstitious enough to think a fetus can miss its "potential life" if it doesn't happen.

It's a matter of acknowledging that being born isn't an intrinsic good. It's good if the conditions are optimal. A loving, nurturing, emotionally stable parent makes a world of difference. So "better to be born to a fucked life than not be born at all" is wrong.

In spite of being born to a mother who was ill-equipped to deal with it, I did eventually get to a place where I'm glad I was born. But to conclude "therefore it's good I weren't aborted" is a non sequitur, because I cannot have missed my life if no soul existed in me as a fetus to feel disappointed about it. ("Damn, I was so looking forward to being born!")

 

[crazyfingers]

The christian taliban are going to be throwing women in prison and charging them with murder if they are not able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt it was a miscarriage. Even if they can they will probably still charge the women with murder for a miscarriage. I am truly learning to DESPISE the United States. I want the fuck out of this country.

 

[bilby]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

Doesn't seem at all fake to me. In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

I am not suggesting that nobody feels that way, nor even that it's an uncommon position to hold; Just that (this being the Internet) it is highly improbable that the individual person pictured ever held a sign bearing the exact text depicted.

Certainly sufficiently improbable that we should hesitate to have any strong emotional response to the image (which was, of course, the desire of the person who posted it here).

The right wing (in particular) are very adept at manipulating the emotions of the masses. That's why most "news" today is thinly disguised invitations to be outraged - as is this picture, and any post on this board that ends with the words:

Daily Mail

 

[Jarhyn]

... In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

I'm male and share the sentiment.

It's not a matter of wishing I were dead. Now that I'm alive, I prefer being alive. But I'm not superstitious enough to think a fetus can miss its "potential life" if it doesn't happen.

It's a matter of acknowledging that being born isn't an intrinsic good. It's good if the conditions are optimal. A loving, nurturing, emotionally stable parent makes a world of difference. So "better to be born to a fucked life than not be born at all" is wrong.

In spite of being born to a mother who was ill-equipped to deal with it, I did eventually get to a place where I'm glad I was born. But to conclude "therefore it's good I weren't aborted" is a non sequitur, because I cannot have missed my life if no soul existed in me as a fetus to feel disappointed about it. ("Damn, I was so looking forward to being born!")

You want some dark humor? In most games of dwarf fortress I set "absolute birth control" active. Every dwarf in the fortress ends up being absolutely barren and sterile.

There's a popular solution though for when you forget to turn that on, and it involves something fondly referred to as "the Dwarven atom smasher".

The christian taliban are going to be throwing women in prison and charging them with murder if they are not able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt it was a miscarriage. Even if they can they will probably still charge the women with murder for a miscarriage. I am truly learning to DESPISE the United States. I want the fuck out of this country.

Well, seek a federal protection for "actions out of state" and "the right of exit for any and all purposes" to include seeking an abortion, and a federal protection from jeopardy over legalities in the jurisdiction acted in.

All of this is interstate commerce, and something the courts can't take away.

 

[Bomb#20]

Except it is not thin with respect to interstate abortion. It is as thick and meaty of an interstate commerce concern as ever there was.

Nobody said it wasn't.

I might point out that you still have yet to say "it IS a thick meaty interstate commerce concern, way thicker and meatier by any measure than that particular farce."

Do you often feel it's other people's job to speak out for your opinions, and to do it using the text you compose for them? Sorry, silly question, of course you do, why would you change now? Exactly which part of "It is explicitly interstate commerce to cross state lines to make a commercial transaction legal in that place, just like you said." didn't you understand?

Sometimes it's about what people avoid saying, you know?

Sure Jan.

It's a big legal federal court hammer against any such farces as Texas's, and it should be pushed through congress yesterday.

Couldn't hurt.

 

[Angry Floof]

... In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

I'm a man and share the sentiment.

It's not a matter of wishing I were dead. Now that I'm alive, I prefer being alive. But I'm not superstitious enough to think a fetus can miss its "potential life" if it doesn't happen.

It's a matter of acknowledging that being born isn't an intrinsic good. It's good if the conditions are optimal. A loving, nurturing, emotionally stable parent makes a world of difference. So "better to be born to a fucked life than not be born at all" is wrong.

In spite of being born to a mother who was ill-equipped to deal with it, I did eventually get to a place where I'm glad I was born. But to conclude "therefore it's good I weren't aborted" is a non sequitur, because I cannot have missed my life if no soul existed in me as a fetus to feel disappointed about it. ("Damn, I was so looking forward to being born!")

I'm not sure exactly what you're responding to. That's not what I meant about men and any idea around "wishing I were dead" bears no relation to my post.

What I meant about men is that they overwhelmingly do not spend their days in environments where feminists gather to talk about stuff.
No matter how liberal, sympathetic, and even sensitive a man might be, if he doesn't spend a large chunk of his time among women and particularly feminists in contexts of social issues, he's not going to have that perspective.

The sign is normal, day to day talk in my world. There's very few men who could say the same. This is not a judgement or criticism of any man here or anywhere. It is simply a fact. If you're not immersed in feminism, that image probably surprised you a bit and your excellent brains went to work to figure it out. I didn't pay much attention to the image because I both understand that woman's perspective and I know that the person who posted it here doesn't.

Most men do not join feminist groups on social media or specifically seek out women filmmakers or writers or whatever. Just like white people overwhelmingly don't go out of their way to seek out the faces and voices and stories of minorities. Just like cis het people overwhelmingly don't go out of their way to seek out LGBTQ voices and perspectives. So even if they support all the same causes and hold the same views, there is still a world of perspective they are missing. And that is why maybe two people in this thread get that woman's sign. Almost all of the commentary I'm seeing about it is off the mark in one way or another.

Edit: I just want to clarify something. Yes, I know that 40 or whatever percent of women are conservatives and it's not really women in general who would not really react to that photo. But those 40 or whatever percent of women also do not spend time with us or care about our stories. They openly hate us. So their lack of empathy or interest and lack of desire to do anything to change that works the same way.

 

[Angry Floof]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

Doesn't seem at all fake to me. In feminist circles, discussion of how we wish our mothers had had options and freedom and autonomy over their own lives even though it means we would not exist is common. That sign screams real to me. I hear such sentiments regularly. A man might not.

I am not suggesting that nobody feels that way, nor even that it's an uncommon position to hold; Just that (this being the Internet) it is highly improbable that the individual person pictured ever held a sign bearing the exact text depicted.

Certainly sufficiently improbable that we should hesitate to have any strong emotional response to the image (which was, of course, the desire of the person who posted it here).

The right wing (in particular) are very adept at manipulating the emotions of the masses. That's why most "news" today is thinly disguised invitations to be outraged - as is this picture, and any post on this board that ends with the words:

Daily Mail

I'm saying there's no reason to suspect it is fake just because there's a lot of fake stuff around. That sign is a common sight and makes sense and there's no need to suspect it's fake, even if it's only right wingers who are fascinated with it. Google the text and you'll find numerous results linking to people, mostly women, saying the same or similar, and often explaining in detail why they say it, telling wholke stories, and not just twitter style commentary. There's nothing actually controversial about the image, so it would not have triggered my suspicions of a fake.

 

[Jarhyn]

Except it is not thin with respect to interstate abortion. It is as thick and meaty of an interstate commerce concern as ever there was.

Nobody said it wasn't.

I might point out that you still have yet to say "it IS a thick meaty interstate commerce concern, way thicker and meatier by any measure than that particular farce."

Do you often feel it's other people's job to speak out for your opinions, and to do it using the text you compose for them? Sorry, silly question, of course you do, why would you change now? Exactly which part of "It is explicitly interstate commerce to cross state lines to make a commercial transaction legal in that place, just like you said." didn't you understand?

Sometimes it's about what people avoid saying, you know?

Sure Jan.

It's a big legal federal court hammer against any such farces as Texas's, and it should be pushed through congress yesterday.

Couldn't hurt.

Well, what am I here for but to argue my opinions?

I would as soon see people making arguments in favor of some thing that has strong arguments like "this is unambiguous interstate commerce" than for it not rely on weak ones like "ambiguous interstate commerce sometimes gets a pass even if maybe it shouldn't".

And to answer your gripe about my use of double quotes without an attribution, it is to reference a paraphrase of a concept I "speak out loud in a way".

It is a characterization rather than a quote.

Anyway, I am sorry that I'm as prickly as I have been today and you don't really deserve so much ire.

This whole decision is shitty, and the one thing that can put a plug in this whole thing seems to be a federal bill aimed at castrating states abilities to prevent women from seeking abortions in a way the SCOTUS has no way of reasonably striking down, and so an avenue to striking state laws down which bar "abortion tourism".

If push comes to shove it also castrates Y'all Queida and Texistan and Floridistan from being able to trap pregnant women in their state.

It's a good solution to the problem for now.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Death cult.

or its a person with a sign

There is the whole technicality of not knowing what she believes. This could be a daughter of a rape victim. It could be a pro-lifer being sarcastic.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the text on the sign in that picture is in any way related to what the person in the picture had written on her sign.

It screams fake to me. It would take five minutes to make a copy of that picture with completely different text on the sign.

That is quite possible as well.