Roe v Wade is on deck

[Loren Pechtel]

But you do agree that personhood is actually a thing, right? You do recognize that some entities are persons? I mean, I assume you would agree that @bilby is a person, and @Toni is a person, even if you don't agree that I'm one?

And I'm betting you agree that non-personhood is a real thing too, right? Like, the keyboard I'm typing on isn't a person, wouldn't you agree?

If those two things are true, then there must exist an inflection point between them, some stage of transition from non-person to person - even if nobody can perfectly agree on where that curve is perfectly horizontal.

I bet if you put your mind to it, you could make a reasonable and logic estimate of the range within which the vast majority of other people looking at the same curve would agree that the it's more or less horizontal. And I bet that such a range is not at the very extreme end of the curve.

We have no ability to clearly draw the line.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only if you accept that a fetus in the third trimester is someone.

Is a 30 week delivered fetus someone?

Once delivered, it is a baby. This is not difficult to understand.

So location is what makes a human entity a person versus a nonperson?

Once delivered, it is separate from its mother and no longer dependent upon her heart, her lungs, her kidneys, her blood and breath and all of her organs to live.

Until then, the needs of the mother are primary and the needs of the fetus are secondary.

So delivery it and separate it from the mother.

Which is what happens now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think laws should be made on the basis of A. I also think that third trimester fetuses are people for all intents and purposes, and thus the harm to them should be considered.

“third trimester fetuses are people” sounds deceptively reasonable. What if the prospective patient’s “fertilization date” is uncertain? Are you okay either way going with the patient’s best guess? What if they lie? Prison?

That, and it means the government is going to second-guess any decision they make--and they do not have a record of doing so honestly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wow! You guys have been arguing about this for 4 years! Has anyone ever changed their mind? I don't have enough time to waste to read all 242 pages of posts.

The argument may have shifted.

We now have a number of people who are stridently arguing AGAINST Roe v Wade.

Interesting times.

Roe is about third trimester is a medical decision. You are trying to play gotcha on the medical decision.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It absolutely sounds reprehensible to me. Killing a health baby who presents no known risk to the mother …

There is no such thing. All deliveries pose known risks. The risks may be small, but they are known to be possible.

Aren't there risks in aborttions as well? Particularly, 3rd term?

Yes. But no one is arguing that someone must take that risk.

There are ony two choices. If the baby is unwanted, and its 3rd trimester you can abort or carry to term. You must assume one of these two risks, regardless.

From my brief search, the risks are not that far apart. They are within the same order of magnitude.

Maternal mortality in 3rd trimester abortions: 77 per 100,00 in 2023
Maternal mortality from giving birth at full term: 19 per 100,00 in 2023

So, its apparently safer to the mother to give birth, than have a 3rd trimester abortion.

Completely useless.

Third trimester abortion = serious medical problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're literally comparing ectopic and stillbirth pregnancies to healthy ones capturing the inevitable deaths from an already horrific situation along with the avoidable ones.

Ectopic pregnancies do not get to the third trimester. Ever, afaik. The mom is dead by then if the fetus has not been removed.

There was one long ago. Details unknown as it was only discovered at autopsy when they found her body had managed to successfully wall it off.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is the death rate for women forced to carry a dead corpse in their body which it does not eject? What is the death rate for women whose babies are essentially a giant toxic tumor growth slowly killing them?

I honestly don't ever want to find out.

I hope that data cannot ever be collected.

It will be collected in "The Southern US and beyond" quite soon, I imagine.

Huh? They're not collecting maternal mortality data anymore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You didn't offer statistics about "elective" third trimester abortions. You offered statistics about ALL third trimester abortions.

I have looked around some, and found it so hard to find stats for “elective third trimester abortions”, it makes me suspect that there are no such stats.
If that’s the case, the question is why.
Is it because there is a libtard conspiracy to hide an epidemic of crazy pregnant people using corrupt doctors to abort viable fetuses?
Or maybe it’s because it simply doesn’t happen often enough to form ANY statistical picture of its frequency.

I’m open either way if there’s evidence, but for the moment my provisional conclusion is that it’s a red herring excuse to keep cops and politicians involved in reproductive health care.

They happen and the punishment crowd distorts the data.

Third trimester elective abortion = serious fetal defects.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Perhaps you might consider actually reading what I've proposed. A doctor who performs a third-trimester abortion without medically necessary indications, and whose records are audited, would face punitive measures.

And the doctor is going to trust that there will be an honest evaluation of whether it was actually medically necessary? We are already seeing politicians going after such doctors. And we have seen a repeated refusal to provide medical guidelines as to when it's necessary.

This is about pretending to permit medical abortions while in reality prohibiting them, let the women die of their sins.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nobody here has taken the extreme position that a zygote is a person from day one - we all recognize that as an extreme and irrational position.

“We” do??
What changes between conception and week 20-whatever that is your magic “bar of personhood”?

75% likelihood to survive outside the womb at 27 weeks, versus virtually no likelihood to survive prior to 24 weeks, and pretty much 0% likelihood to survive prior to 20 weeks.

100% chance of suffocation. 25% die of it, the other 75% suffer serious damage from oxygen deprivation and from breathing 100% oxygen for months.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In 2022, 817 women died of maternal causes in the United States, compared with 1,205 in 2021, 861 in 2020, 754 in 2019, and 658 in 2018. The maternal mortality rate for 2022 decreased to 22.3 deaths per 100,000 live births, compared with a rate of 32.9 in 2021

The CDC doesn't appear to collect data on the number of people who die from "waking up in the morning", but I would hazard a guess that it's significantly fewer than 20 per 100,000.

My apologies for introducing facts and data into this thread. Please resume your regularly scheduled pointless bickering.

Well.....

I have fairly detailed knowledge of how 5 people have died. And one of those died when waking up in the morning. (Get out of bed, your blood pressure goes up. Straw that broke the camel's back.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But, the discussion here and now is focused on elective third trimester abortions, when both mother and fetus/baby are healthy. If the fetus is abnormal, I don't think Emily, myself or anyone else here is insisting it be carried to term.

Exactly - and EXPLICITLY - right.

So abnormal “babies” aren’t people. Fascinating.

Oh fucking give it a break. I've been extremely clear about referring to fetuses that are either so damaged that they're extremely unlikely to survive no matter what, or fetuses with severe deleterious conditions that make it likely the baby won't thrive and will have lifelong serious complications.

You can fuck right off with your disingenuous appeal to insinuated strawman.

So an entity with lifelong serious complications is not a person.

 

[Elixir]

No need for cops or politicians causing life-threatening delays in treatment.

For the fifty billionth time... these "life-threatening delays" are a figment of your imagination, and thus a strawman. I suppose if you really enjoy arguing with the voices in your head, go for it. Just stop implying that those voices represent my views or proposals.

Except those delays kill women.

Trigger Abortion Bans Linked to Delayed, Less Effective Miscarriage Care

Shifts in management may be an unintended effect of abortion restrictions

www.medpagetoday.com

You're killing women.

I think Emily spends a lot of time and energy ensuring that she won’t get it.

 

[Elixir]

Of course, the data seems to indicate that it's an exceptional few women who are actually killed...

WERE "actually killed". The numbers are mounting, especially where the camel now shits in the tent.

Uh huh. Some babies were also actually killed.

Sure.
So … how many babies are worth one fetus in your most compassionate calculation?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wasn't trying to address whether she hates women. Rather, I was addressing why people distrust her claim of support for the RvW position.

It's absurd to distrust my claim of support for the RvW position, when that's quite literally the only thing I've ever argued for.

The devil is in the details.

You proposed some onerous requirements on third trimester abortions--things that simply couldn't be met in smaller facilities.

I proposed that doctors have to document the medical reason for the termination in their medical records. If smaller facilities can't do that, they shouldn't be practicing medicine at all.

No, you proposed allowing the government to play gotcha about whether the doctor can later prove why.

And as we have seen with other quests to ban "improper" abortion it comes down to whether they can prove it's proper, rather than the best medical estimate. How do you know how far along a pregnancy is? It's sometimes impossible to prove it's at less than 6 months.

Somehow we're pretty damned good at getting it right. I've repeatedly said that I'm happy to increase the line to 27 or 28 weeks, and you could probably even talk me up to 30 if you try.

Huh? What evidence do you have that we get it right? Failures will generally be undetected.

You argued for RvW with booby traps.

What booby traps did I add to RvW when I argued that RvW should be made into a law as it was?

The government review of whether it was medically appropriate. Amateurs working from a position of guilty until proven innocent--and free to use the system as punishment even if the prosecution doesn't succeed. We already see places like Texas doing this.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You proposed some onerous requirements on third trimester abortions--things that simply couldn't be met in smaller facilities.

I don't remember that. Could you please give an overview of the onerous requirements you're referring to?
There's about 70 million iidb posts on this subject, so maybe I missed them.
Tom

What I considered impossible was a requirement for a certain number of doctors to agree--in situations where there likely aren't that many doctors available.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Despite Bans, Number of Abortions in the United States Increased in 2023

www.guttmacher.org

It's complicated. But overturning Roe V Wade made things worse.

No. It's not overturning Roe that matters, it's the attitudes that caused them to do that. They're after making sex dangerous--and, as always, that drives up the oops rate and thus the abortion rate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trying to distinguish between naive cognitive dissonance and deliberate misinformation is getting tiresome.

It's worse than that.

It's always deliberate misinformation, the question is whether any given person knows that or is a dupe.

 

[Emily Lake]

The entire concept of justice has already been abandoned because if it hadn't, Roe V Wade would be the law of the land

It was never actually the law of the land. I'd be very happy if it were... but it was never a law in the first place. Because congress - under MULTIPLE dem-controlled eras, never bothered to make it an actual law.

Of course, they've never actually given female citizens federally recognized equal rights either... so I dunno what you want to take from that about Dem's lip service versus actual progress made.

 

[Emily Lake]

I am not, and have never been, opposed to abortion being legal.

I know that Emily. You’re not opposed to abortion being legal as long as it is subjected to a second opinion. In advance. That is neither bodily autonomy nor personal freedom IMHO.

Again with your selective and intentionally misleading framing. Be more honest.

I will reiterate once more: Completely accessible abortion with absolutely no strings whatsoever within the first 2 trimesters. I only landed at 2nd opinion in the 3rd trimester because YOU objected to my initial expectation that the doctor needs to provide a medical need on the fucking record. That's where I started, and YOU decided that wasn't sufficient and kept trying to foist judges into the mix. I didn't do that - YOU did that idiotic cartwheel of non-logic.

I was perfectly happy with the doctor just fucking documenting what the diagnosis justifying the medical need was.

And that “position” was moderated from something that reeked even more strongly of authoritarianism, as it originally involved politicians.
At least that is what I have gotten from what you have said.

I never involved politicians - YOU kept shoving politicians in there. I didn't. Not me - YOU>

“I’m so misunderstood!” Is the wailing lament of one cannot succinctly explain themself.

Slandered more like. I don't think I'm misunderstood... I think you've decided it's a fun game to intentionally misrepresent my views and then engage in purposeful disinformation in other threads where it's an entirely unrelated topic.

If you clearly state the difference between what you really mean and what I (and a “couple of my extremist friends”) have gleaned from your posts, we can discuss it. Telling me I’m wrong, and endlessly re-phrasing that assertion doesn’t tell me what’s right. If you cannot do that, it’s pretty pointless to try to discuss with you.

What you've gleaned has come entirely out of your own febrile imagination. It's not my fault you're hell-bent on character assassination as a pastime.