Roe v Wade is on deck

[Jarhyn]

we have that "research" you cited, but it doesn't feel like proper scientific research

I have yet to see a single piece of "research" presented by her that actually qualifies as "proper scientific research" and not "biases presented in such sciency language that some people might not be able to tell the difference".

Clearly she can't tell the difference.

She keeps assuming she is more competent than she is, as evidenced by the clear fact that she can't parse my niece.

She is part of the "We CaN aLWaYs TeLl" crowd, and believes most every trans person is faking it.

(deleted)

She can't even understand how, flailing around in her obvious confusion, she manages to injure so many women with her push to enforce essentialism, even as she claims she doesn't want to be an essentialist.

It's sad that she (and others) are as adept at sounding smart while they spew their idiocy, but that's something I've been fighting with my whole life in the software industry and elsewhere else. Often idiots are better at sounding intelligent because intelligence is rare, including the lesser but still fairly high intelligence required to parse intelligent-seeming dialogue.

It can take years for people to identify poseurs, and by then the damage is usually already done, and the poseur is in a good position with their name on some other people's work such that they can use that to fool the next guy.

Oftentimes the one smart person "on the island" ends up getting frequently "voted off the island" because they don't understand the task of "running around in circles while flailing your hands and saying 'look at me, this is useful work, see how much activity I can put on display' such that people mistake that for actually pulling weight, and if anyone saw the reality of pulling weight long or clear enough to learn the difference, the department would be in real trouble of needing to do their jobs."

 

[Toni]

I think the first thing that should happen is the hospital admits her as a patient in the Emergency Room and starts running tests because Jeezy Creeezy, something is very wrong here! Is she on drugs? Did she eat the wrong kind of mushrooms, is she suffering from hypoxia, is she severely sleep deprived and hallucinating, does she have an undiagnosed mental illness, or a brain tumor, or what? The wrong thing to do is presume she's simply an evil person looking for an evil doctor to be her accomplice in a premeditated murder. And the utterly unconscionable thing to do is to send her away with no one to help her through what is clearly a crisis.

On what possible basis do you assume that I disagree with this?

Your posting seems to assume that doctors will indeed kill a fetus days before it’s due date on demand, on the mother’s request, easy peasy. And that the doctors will have no choice about the matter

People can and do insist on medical procedures that doctors refuse to perform because they are not necessary and/or violate medical standards. Since we are talking about pregnancies here, I knew a woman who had had zero child birth prep classes and went to the hospital assuming she’d be given the same twilight sleep drugs her mother had been given when she was born only to learn that nope, indeed, she’d be going through labor unmediated until near the end. And another woman who assumed she’d could just ask for a c-section and doctors would say: Works for us. She was not very happy that she had to go through labor and a vaginal delivery.

Doctors can and do override patients’ demands/preferences when in their estimation, it is too risky to do as the patient wants.

There are indeed cases where pregnant women have been jailed to prevent them from using drugs during their pregnancies and court cases when a woman was adamantly refusing a c-section and her wishes were ignored.

Both of this scenarios are pretty upsetting for a lot of reasons, especially the slippery slope that could lead to women having little or no decision making powers if they were pregnant, much as women in the fifties were given little choice about their delivery and were often not conscious during delivery. In some hospitals, immediately after delivery women were routinely given drugs to stop their body from producing milk, even if the mother stated clearly that she intended to breastfeed. Because doctors were convinced that it was healthier for the baby to be given formula in part because the amount consumed was more easily measurable and tracked.

 

[Toni]

Objection: "elective". Doesn't mean what you think it means.

Medically, anything you schedule is elective. Doesn't matter if you have no chance of survival without it. This means that fetal defect abortions get listed as "elective". And those who would cram religion down our throats exploit this to pretend things are happening that aren't.

That's not true, Loren. There's a pretty commonplace distinction between medical necessity and elective, and it's a cornerstone for medical billing, prior authorization, and stuff like whether Medicare will cover it at all.

If the procedure alleviates an injury, reduces the impact of the injury, or mitigates a risk that would create a future injury, it's usually deemed medically necessary. That doesn't mean it's urgent, however. Thus an ACL surgery can be deemed medically necessary, but not urgent. It has full support for the procedure to be performed, but it doesn't need to be done right away - there's usually a relatively wide range of timing involved that produces a degree of discretion for timing.

Terminations for fetal defect don't generally get listed as "elective" outside of those few states that have gone for complete bans. Those states are stupid.

You're listening to the pro-punishment crowd.

If you can select when it is considered elective.

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’ My c-sections were considered ‘elective’ because they were scheduled and not performed in an emergency situation.

 

[TomC]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’ My c-sections were considered ‘elective’ because they were scheduled and not performed in an emergency situation.

By that standard my mom's abortion was elective.
She and dad seriously wanted a flock of kids. She had fertility issues. Her second pregnancy was ectopic. Only treatment was a surgical abortion. Removing a fallopian tube, the one that they knew worked, was a big crisis. But they scheduled it to save Mom from a horrific death.
Tom

 

[Toni]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’ My c-sections were considered ‘elective’ because they were scheduled and not performed in an emergency situation.

By that standard my mom's abortion was elective.
She and dad seriously wanted a flock of kids. She had fertility issues. Her second pregnancy was ectopic. Only treatment was a surgical abortion. Removing a fallopian tube, the one that they knew worked, was a big crisis. But they scheduled it to save Mom from a horrific death.
Tom

I'm not certain that would have been considered elective. But I'm not a doctor nor am I coder for medical insurance/reimbursements so, take that statement with a grain of salt.

 

[TomC]

I'm not certain that would have been considered elective. But I'm not a doctor nor am I coder for medical insurance/reimbursements so, take that statement with a grain of salt.

By the standard of "it was scheduled for the next day", so it's elective, it was. That's why I think "scheduled" as a synonym for "elective" is ridiculous.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I'm not certain that would have been considered elective. But I'm not a doctor nor am I coder for medical insurance/reimbursements so, take that statement with a grain of salt.

By the standard of "it was scheduled for the next day", so it's elective, it was. That's why I think "scheduled" as a synonym for "elective" is ridiculous.
Tom

I remember feeling pretty outraged at hearing a c-section I very much preferred not to have was ‘elective.’ It was actually the most common practice after a previous c-section. I looked around quite a while before I found a doctor willing to try a natural childbirth but that baby was also not cooperative, so..,,

 

[TomC]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’

Not by me.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I'm not certain that would have been considered elective. But I'm not a doctor nor am I coder for medical insurance/reimbursements so, take that statement with a grain of salt.

By the standard of "it was scheduled for the next day", so it's elective, it was. That's why I think "scheduled" as a synonym for "elective" is ridiculous.
Tom

Take it up with the AMA. Lots if medical terminology is misleading to the nonmedical community. For example, “heart failure “ means the heart fails to pump efficiently, not that necessarily stops.

The term “elective” is misleading because elective procedures can be medically necessary just not immediately medically necessary. Which is why using “elective abortion” can be rhetorically misleading. For example if carrying a fetus to term means likely death for the mother and fetus, any abortion scheduled prior to the expected labor is an “elective” abortion.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’

Not by me.
Tom

Can you please PM me your dictionary, so I can better understand the meaning of the words you have arbitrarily decided to redefine?

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm not certain that would have been considered elective. But I'm not a doctor nor am I coder for medical insurance/reimbursements so, take that statement with a grain of salt.

By the standard of "it was scheduled for the next day", so it's elective, it was. That's why I think "scheduled" as a synonym for "elective" is ridiculous.
Tom

Take it up with the AMA. Lots if medical terminology is misleading to the nonmedical community. For example, “heart failure “ means the heart fails to pump efficiently, not that necessarily stops.

The term “elective” is misleading because elective procedures can be medically necessary just not immediately medically necessary. Which is why using “elective abortion” can be rhetorically misleading. For example if carrying a fetus to term means likely death for the mother and fetus, any abortion scheduled prior to the expected labor is an “elective” abortion.

But if people had to admit their understanding was comically naive, how could they possibly push an agenda?

 

[Toni]

To make things even more politically charged in these dark times: in medical parlance, a miscarriage is called an abortion.

 

[Elixir]

To make things even more politically charged in these dark times: in medical parlance, a miscarriage is called an abortion.

… and historically criminalized as such by various civilizations societies.

 

[Toni]

To make things even more politically charged in these dark times: in medical parlance, a miscarriage is called an abortion.

… and historically criminalized as such by various civilizations

Induced abortions were tolerated by many cultures and societies, and considered women’s business.

 

[TomC]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’

Not by me.
Tom

Can you please PM me your dictionary, so I can better understand the meaning of the words you have arbitrarily decided to redefine?

Just ask the people around you what they mean by "elective" surgery (or elective anything else). What I am doing is using the vernacular. Insisting on referring to Mom's abortion as elective puts it in a category with liposuction and boob jobs. I really don't much care about medical lingo when it's utterly irrelevant.
Tom

 

[TomC]

But if people had to admit their understanding was comically naive, how could they possibly push an agenda?

What agenda do you think that I'm pushing.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

But if people had to admit their understanding was comically naive, how could they possibly push an agenda?

What agenda do you think that I'm pushing.
Tom

It's interesting you maneuvered your way between the comment and it's actual target...

 

[TomC]

But if people had to admit their understanding was comically naive, how could they possibly push an agenda?

What agenda do you think that I'm pushing.
Tom

It's interesting you maneuvered your way between the comment and it's actual target...

If you understand what you are saying please explain it.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

But if people had to admit their understanding was comically naive, how could they possibly push an agenda?

What agenda do you think that I'm pushing.
Tom

It's interesting you maneuvered your way between the comment and it's actual target...

If you understand what you are saying please explain it.
Tom

There was a back-and-forth about those who have comically naive understandings of various subjects, ostensibly relating to someone who discusses greatly the accessibility of on-demand abortions based explicitly on an incorrect interpretation of "elective", and uses this to push a bias.

Not me... Not you... Guess who!

 

[Toni]

But if people had to admit their understanding was comically naive, how could they possibly push an agenda?

What agenda do you think that I'm pushing.
Tom

I think that it is extremely important when talking about medical procedures in any discussion other than just a couple of people talking over a cup of coffee to use the correct medical terminology.

A huge amount of the current ‘debate’ over abortion rights is very heavy on emotions and frankly very poor understanding of female anatomy, pregnancy, childbirth, fetal development, statistics around pregnancy outcomes. Im not talking about you or posters here—I’m talking about legislators seeking to make political points by ginnning up public outrage.

We need to use medical terminology as it is used by medical professionals and to avoid sentimentality and emotion.