Russia: Don't look for who did the MH17 shootdown

[Loren Pechtel]

All you're showing is they weren't very democratic before.

The mistake Ukraine made was to allow high pro-Russian population in Crimea and Sevastopol in the first place. Russian annexation thereof is a hint to every other country, that they should ethnically cleanse such areas in the future. Good job protecting Russians abroad, Putin!

Russia moved those people there when they controlled the Ukraine.


And ethnic cleansing would trigger a Russian attack anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The analysis, when it pertains to the explosion and the fragments, seems legit. I am not qualified to doubt that. But I also don't buy the assumption that the final position and orientation of the missile that has its own propulsion and guidance system can be used to deduce the point where it was fired from. From the analysis, it seems that the details pertaining to how the targeting and manouvering of the missile works is strangely absent.

There is much to learn for you about anti-aircraft missiles. If target moves with constant speed and direction then missile trajectory will be perfect straight line, missile would not maneuver if target does not. What it does it calculates trajectory of the target and tries to intercept it.

It depends on how sophisticated the missile is. A simplistic missile will fly in a straight line to a non-maneuvering target. A more sophisticated missile will fly up where the air is thinner for as much of it's flight as it can--thinner air means is loses less energy, it gets there faster and has more energy to deal with a maneuvering target. A more sophisticated missile can also turn in flight so as to avoid needing the launcher to be pointed straight at the target. Look at the video of the SM-2 launch I linked--the missile leaves the launcher straight into the sky.

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All you're showing is they weren't very democratic before.

and still aren't apparently:
http://www.gettyimages.in/detail/ne...enko-speaks-to-the-media-news-photo/457890088
See, these two serious men? They are there to make sure Poroshenko votes for his party

Look at his ballot--folded, with the votes on the inside. That's reasonably secure.

 

[Will Wiley]

The mistake Ukraine made was to allow high pro-Russian population in Crimea and Sevastopol in the first place. Russian annexation thereof is a hint to every other country, that they should ethnically cleanse such areas in the future. Good job protecting Russians abroad, Putin!

Russia moved those people there when they controlled the Ukraine.


And ethnic cleansing would trigger a Russian attack anyway.

Russia has had a naval base there for many generations. trying to get them to roll over and surrender it with so many Nazis in Kiev is playing a game of chicken with nuclear weapons. But some people like war.
The people who like war are insane but there seems to be a lot of them

“They were cheating us once more, took decisions behind our back, presented us with a fait accompli,” he said, adding that the patter is identical to that which accompanied NATO’s expansion to the east, the deployment of an anti-ballistic missile system, visa restrictions and numerous other issues.

“They are constantly trying to corner us in retaliation for our having an independent position, for defending it, for calling things by their names and not being hypocritical,” Putin accused. “Everything has its limits, and in Ukraine our western partners crossed the red line. They acted brutally, irresponsibly and unprofessionally.”

Putin said the West must stop being hysterical, restrain from the Cold War rhetoric and admit the obvious: “Russia is an independent and active participant of international relations. Just like any nation it has national interests that must be taken into consideration and respected.”

As for the Ukrainian red line, the coup-imposed authorities in Kiev voiced their desire to join NATO, and such a move would pose an imminent threat to Russia, Putin said.

“We stand against having a military organization meddling in our backyard, next to our homeland or in the territories that are historically ours. I just cannot imagine visiting NATO sailors in Sevastopol,” he stressed. “Most of them are fine lads, by the way. But rather let them visit us in Sevastopol than the other way around.”

http://www.rt.com/news/putin-address-parliament-crimea-562/

 

[tupac chopra]

News out today.
MH17: Fragments may be 'smoking gun' that proves Buk missile shot down plane

Metal fragments recovered from a field in eastern Ukraine may be the 'smoking gun' that proves a Buk surface-to-air missile shot down flight MH17 last year.
Expert investigators announced on Tuesday that they were examining several parts, possibly originating from a Buk missile system, which were recovered from eastern Ukraine in the area where MH17 came down

.
Investigators have had the bodies of the pilots for over one year. Those bodies will contain the evidence of what was used to bring the plane down. Chemical analysis can probably tell them what factory the missile of whatever came from.

How can they not know what was used over one year later? Maybe it will give them information about the species used.

 

[barbos]

The mistake Ukraine made was to allow high pro-Russian population in Crimea and Sevastopol in the first place. Russian annexation thereof is a hint to every other country, that they should ethnically cleanse such areas in the future. Good job protecting Russians abroad, Putin!

Russia moved those people there when they controlled the Ukraine.


And ethnic cleansing would trigger a Russian attack anyway.

Loren said so it must be the truth.

 

[Ford]

Russia moved those people there when they controlled the Ukraine.


And ethnic cleansing would trigger a Russian attack anyway.

Loren said so it must be the truth.

Barbos passed on the talking point from the Kremlin so it must be the truth.

 

[barbos]

There is much to learn for you about anti-aircraft missiles. If target moves with constant speed and direction then missile trajectory will be perfect straight line, missile would not maneuver if target does not. What it does it calculates trajectory of the target and tries to intercept it.

It depends on how sophisticated the missile is. A simplistic missile will fly in a straight line to a non-maneuvering target. A more sophisticated missile will fly up where the air is thinner for as much of it's flight as it can--thinner air means is loses less energy,

that would not change horizontal profile, and BUK is pretty short range anyway

 

[tupac chopra]

If what John Kerry has said is true then the culprit will be found and the evidence will be clear.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...vidence-pro-russia-separatists-responsibility

"We have enormous input about this that points fingers," Kerry told CNN's State of the Union. "It is pretty clear that this was a system from Russia, transferred to separatists. We know with confidence that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point of time."
He said the US knew that in the last month there had been a "major flow of arms and weapons from Russia to the eastern part of Ukraine and turned over to the separatists".
Kerry said social media reports and US surveillance put the missile system in question in the vicinity of the crash before the tragedy.
"We know because we observed it by imagery that at the moment of the shootdown we detected a launch from that area," he said. "Our trajectory shows that it went to the aircraft.

That should settle it.

 

[barbos]

Someone should ask Kerry for an update on all that.

 

[Will Wiley]

Someone should ask Kerry for an update on all that.

Someone did, but even though they have undoubtedly had opportunity to examine a great deal more evidence they still refer to people to an assessment from a week after the plane came down that mainly relied on anonymous social media postings that where the accounts were closed down after a short time or were from the SBU.
US Intel Stands Pat on MH-17 Shoot-down

This strange behavior reinforces the suspicion that the U.S. government possesses information that contradicts its initial rush to judgment, but senior officials don’t want to correct the record because to do so would embarrass them and weaken the value of the tragedy as a propaganda club to pound the Russians

 

[barbos]

Someone did, but even though they have undoubtedly had opportunity to examine a great deal more evidence they still refer to people to an assessment from a week after the plane came down that mainly relied on anonymous social media postings that where the accounts were closed down after a short time or were from the SBU.
US Intel Stands Pat on MH-17 Shoot-down

This strange behavior reinforces the suspicion that the U.S. government possesses information that contradicts its initial rush to judgment, but senior officials don’t want to correct the record because to do so would embarrass them and weaken the value of the tragedy as a propaganda club to pound the Russians

I completely agree with this guy

In other words, after U.S. intelligence analysts had time to review the data from spy satellites and various electronic surveillance, including phone intercepts, the Obama administration didn’t retract its initial rush to judgment – tossing blame on Russia and the rebels – but provided no further elaboration either.

This strange behavior reinforces the suspicion that the U.S. government possesses information that contradicts its initial rush to judgment, but senior officials don’t want to correct the record because to do so would embarrass them and weaken the value of the tragedy as a propaganda club to pound the Russians.

 

[Will Wiley]

I completely agree with this guy

In other words, after U.S. intelligence analysts had time to review the data from spy satellites and various electronic surveillance, including phone intercepts, the Obama administration didn’t retract its initial rush to judgment – tossing blame on Russia and the rebels – but provided no further elaboration either.

This strange behavior reinforces the suspicion that the U.S. government possesses information that contradicts its initial rush to judgment, but senior officials don’t want to correct the record because to do so would embarrass them and weaken the value of the tragedy as a propaganda club to pound the Russians.

This might be worth considering too.
The MH-17 Propaganda War

The following anecdote may or may not be apocryphal, but either way given the geopolitical zeitgeist, the “moral” of the “fable” is a telling one. The story goes that during the 1980s a group of American journalists were hosting a visit to the U.S. of one of their Soviet counterparts. After proudly showing their visitor the “ropes” as to how it all works stateside, most of them expected their guest to express unbridled envy at the professional liberties they enjoyed in the Land of the Free Press. Later, whilst comparing notes about how they respectively went about plying their trade, the Russian scribe was indeed compelled to express his unabashed “admiration” to his hosts – but it was for the “superior quality” of American “propaganda.”

I do have to take my hat off to JayJay who has good grasp of what is going on, and even though we disagree I think his approach is fair minded and that he has tried to understand the points I have tried to make and has refuted some of them.


This incidemt has brought us closer to a nuclear confrontation than we have been for decades and I think we need to get better evidence than social media posts

 

[barbos]

Well, in more free society which US were one needs a higher quality propaganda as opposed to oppressive regimes like USSR where you can simply control the information.
Soviet higher ranks had at least since the end of 70s known that soviet system was not working and change was needed, they just did not know how to do it safely.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Russia moved those people there when they controlled the Ukraine.


And ethnic cleansing would trigger a Russian attack anyway.

Russia has had a naval base there for many generations. trying to get them to roll over and surrender it with so many Nazis in Kiev is playing a game of chicken with nuclear weapons. But some people like war.
The people who like war are insane but there seems to be a lot of them

Remember the thread on here a while back about the guy who sold the land he used as a driveway, leaving his property landlocked and then expected to be able to drive through another property?

Russia gave away the land containing their naval base. Too bad. We didn't annex Cuba after their revolution left Guantanamo Bay isolated.

 

[barbos]

Russia gave away the land containing their naval base. Too bad. We didn't annex Cuba after their revolution left Guantanamo Bay isolated.

Who needs Cuba when you can get Texas?

 

[Will Wiley]

Russia has had a naval base there for many generations. trying to get them to roll over and surrender it with so many Nazis in Kiev is playing a game of chicken with nuclear weapons. But some people like war.
The people who like war are insane but there seems to be a lot of them

Remember the thread on here a while back about the guy who sold the land he used as a driveway, leaving his property landlocked and then expected to be able to drive through another property?

Russia gave away the land containing their naval base. Too bad. We didn't annex Cuba after their revolution left Guantanamo Bay isolated.

And now they have it back, via a referendum.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Russia gave away the land containing their naval base. Too bad. We didn't annex Cuba after their revolution left Guantanamo Bay isolated.

Who needs Cuba when you can get Texas?

Nice job of missing the point.

Remember the thread on here a while back about the guy who sold the land he used as a driveway, leaving his property landlocked and then expected to be able to drive through another property?

Russia gave away the land containing their naval base. Too bad. We didn't annex Cuba after their revolution left Guantanamo Bay isolated.

And now they have it back, via a referendum.

Not an honest referendum.

 

[barbos]

Who needs Cuba when you can get Texas?

Nice job of missing the point.

Nice job of having no point.

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Not an honest referendum.

Says who? you? LOL

 

[barbos]

In other news Dutch government denied request to release information about investigation saying it would hurt Netherlands relations with other (Ukraine really) countries participating in investigation.

 

[Ford]

In other news Dutch government denied request to release information about investigation saying it would hurt Netherlands relations with other (Ukraine really) countries participating in investigation.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M[/YOUTUBE]