Russia: Don't look for who did the MH17 shootdown

[dystopian]

In other news Dutch government denied request to release information about investigation saying it would hurt Netherlands relations with other (Ukraine really) countries participating in investigation.

As usual... you're twisting and leaving out facts in order to support your conspiracy theory.

1) The explicitly stated reason it *could* (the government has never said it *would*) harm relations with other governments is because the documents that were specifically requested to be released contain personal statements and opinions of both domestic and foreign agents and politicians. No government would release documents of any nature that include such personal comments by foreign government members; it implies nothing more than common courtesy.

2) The documents that were requested (and denied) are NOT about the investigation; but relate to the actions and decisions of the Dutch government cabinet following the crash. So if; as you're obviously trying to imply; they're trying to hide something, it's nothing to do with the investigation itself. If they were hiding something, it'd be far more likely they're trying to avoid further criticism for their weak response when they could've, as many Dutch people say they should've, responded by sending in a military force to secure the crash site; or responding more firmly in some other manner. Releasing documents surrounding their decision-making process isn't likely to paint the government's weak response in a favorable light.

3) The Dutch government; like virtually any government; routinely denies similar requests even when it concerns completely mundane and uninteresting subjects; and does so on the exact same grounds. It is not unusual, and it implies nothing.

I don't know why anyone would be surprised you'd try to spin this.

 

[Will Wiley]

In other news Dutch government denied request to release information about investigation saying it would hurt Netherlands relations with other (Ukraine really) countries participating in investigation.

I know that the Dutch refused to release the details of what was in the secret agreement.
Why the Secrecy on the Mh17 Investigation

More significantly however, is that the existence of this secret agreement was not announced by the Australian government, nor to the best of my knowledge has any report about the existence of the agreement or its extraordinary terms, been published in any mainstream publication.

The Dutch magazine Elsevier, under Dutch Freedom of Information laws, sought a copy of the agreement. On 19 November they announced that the request had been refused on the grounds that it “could endanger the relations with other countries involved.”

Given the existence of this agreement it is difficult to see how anyone can have any confidence in whatever final report is published by the Dutch.

 

[Will Wiley]

2) The documents that were requested (and denied) are NOT about the investigation; but relate to the actions and decisions of the Dutch government cabinet following the crash. So if; as you're obviously trying to imply; they're trying to hide something, it's nothing to do with the investigation itself.
.

Incorrect. See the above post. They are still hiding the agreement.

On 8 August 2014 these four investigating nations signed an agreement that the results of the investigation would not be published unless all four countries agreed. This gave one of the prime suspects in the atrocity, Ukraine, an effective veto over any investigations result that attributed blame to them. This is an astonishing situation and probably without precedent in modern air crash investigations.

 

[Ford]

I don't know why anyone would be surprised you'd try to spin this.

Well if the check clears...

 

[barbos]

I know that the Dutch refused to release the details of what was in the secret agreement.
Why the Secrecy on the Mh17 Investigation

The Dutch magazine Elsevier, under Dutch Freedom of Information laws, sought a copy of the agreement. On 19 November they announced that the request had been refused on the grounds that it “could endanger the relations with other countries involved.”

Thank you very much, once again russian "propaganda" correctly translated/relayed news, unlike certain individual from Netherlands.

 

[Ford]

 

[dystopian]

Incorrect. See the above post. They are still hiding the agreement.

That concerns an entirely different request for documents than the one made by RTL that Barbos was talking about; however, that request also isn't for any details of the investigation itself.

Thank you very much, once again russian "propaganda" correctly translated/relayed news, unlike certain individual from Netherlands.

Apparently not; because *you* claimed that the Dutch government said it *would* harm relations (thereby implying certain things about the contents of the documents), whereas the government (and the article WW quoted and which you subsequently quoted yourself) explicitly stated *could*, which does not imply the same sort of thing. You also claimed the government refused to release information about the investigation; which is neither true with the recent RTL attempt to have documents about the cabinet decisions declassified, or Elsevier's attempt to get hold of the documents about the *organizational details* of the joint investigation team.

You are still just trying to spin things.

 

[barbos]

dutch is pathetic

 

[Will Wiley]

If only they could have 25% percent of the worlds prison population and have police that kill 500 hundred of their own citizens before half the year is up and a docile population that cheers their wars on.
You probably think America defeated Hitler too.

 

[Will Wiley]

dutch is pathetic

I know. He thinks the Dutch could have sent their soldiers over. But they don't have a very good record.
Dutch peacekeepers responsible for 300 deaths of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica

They probably would have stood by while war crimes happened, or worse still helped the process

 

[Will Wiley]

double post

 

[dystopian]

dutch is pathetic

I know. He thinks the Dutch could have sent their soldiers over. But they don't have a very good record.
Dutch peacekeepers responsible for 300 deaths of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica

They probably would have stood by while war crimes happened, or worse still helped the process

Yet another poor attempt to troll and deflect attention. It's been well established by now that NATO command refused to deliver the air support that the Dutch peacekeepers repeatedly requested, and it is that repeated refusal that is to blame for the fall of srebrenica, not any failing on the part of Dutch peacekeepers. http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/06/srebrenica-airstrikes-cancelled-dutch-not-told/

As a direct consequence; Dutch military command now insists on always having the operational capacity and decision-making freedom to support its on the grounds forces with air support during international deployments. The Netherlands most certainly had the capability of sending in a sizeable force to secure the crash site; if the political will had been there. The 11th Airmobile Brigade specifically trains for these sorts of scenarios. Sending in one or two of the brigade's companies would've been more than sufficient and perfectly possible.

 

[Deadend]

dutch is pathetic

I know. He thinks the Dutch could have sent their soldiers over. But they don't have a very good record.
Dutch peacekeepers responsible for 300 deaths of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica

They probably would have stood by while war crimes happened, or worse still helped the process

It is fitting you should mention this, because it aptly illustrates how a civilized nation handles to a mistake which results in a catastrophe.

• The mistake the Dutch made was to send insufficiently armed troops to defend an indefensible enclave. The resulting catastrophe cost 8.000 civilians their lives.
• The mistake the Russians made was to send an insufficiently equipped Buk missile system to the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine (probably with Russian personnel). The resulting catastrophe cost 300 civilians their lives.

• As a result of the catastrophe the Dutch government resigned, spent vast amounts of money to bring those guilty of the genocide to justice and the Dutch state paid compensation to the survivors of the massacre. The Sebrenica massacre is considered a black page in Dutch history.
• The Russian response to the catastrophe was to deny any responsibility, blaming anyone but themselves or their allies and hindering the process to bring the guilty to justice.

And it pains me to call Russia uncivilized, Russian people have made great contributions to civilization. But its current regime are criminals. Any true Russophile ought to be horrified by what has happened to Russia. I can not blame the Russian people for not standing up en masse against Putin and his cronies. The regime controls virtually all media, the Russian people don't know any better. But those who have access to all the free media in the rest of the world and still make excuses for Putin's actions, they are either stupid or evil.

 

[barbos]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba#Belgian_Involvement

According to David Akerman, Ludo De Witte and Kris Hollington,[32] the firing squads were commanded by a Belgian, Captain Julien Gat; another Belgian, Police Commissioner Verscheure, had overall command of the execution site.[33] De Witte found written orders from the Belgian government requesting Lumumba's execution and documents on various arrangements, such as death squads.
.........

 

[Deadend]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba#Belgian_Involvement

According to David Akerman, Ludo De Witte and Kris Hollington,[32] the firing squads were commanded by a Belgian, Captain Julien Gat; another Belgian, Police Commissioner Verscheure, had overall command of the execution site.[33] De Witte found written orders from the Belgian government requesting Lumumba's execution and documents on various arrangements, such as death squads.
.........

I don't see the relevance. You do realize that Belgium and the Netherlands are two different countries, right?

If you want examples of terrible things the Dutch have done, I'm quite willing to help you. They are described in Dutch history books. And in history books by foreigners in Dutch libraries.

(Ahem)

 

[Ford]

If only they could have 25% percent of the worlds prison population and have police that kill 500 hundred of their own citizens before half the year is up and a docile population that cheers their wars on.
You probably think America defeated Hitler too.

If you want to talk about America, make a post and argue all day if you like, but the topic of this thread is Russia.

 

[Will Wiley]

And it pains me to call Russia uncivilized, Russian people have made great contributions to civilization. But its current regime are criminals. Any true Russophile ought to be horrified by what has happened to Russia. I can not blame the Russian people for not standing up en masse against Putin and his cronies. The regime controls virtually all media, the Russian people don't know any better. But those who have access to all the free media in the rest of the world and still make excuses for Putin's actions, they are either stupid or evil.

You can criticize Putin if you like but unlike the pussies in the Netherlands he isn't afraid to stand up to the war criminals in Washington. If only the Dutch had the balls to do that.

 

[Will Wiley]

delete

 

[Will Wiley]

It is fitting you should mention this, because it aptly illustrates how a civilized nation handles to a mistake which results in a catastrophe.

• The mistake the Dutch made was to send insufficiently armed troops to defend an indefensible enclave. The resulting catastrophe cost 8.000 civilians their lives.
• The mistake the Russians made was to send an insufficiently equipped Buk missile system to the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine (probably with Russian personnel). The resulting catastrophe cost 300 civilians their lives.

• As a result of the catastrophe the Dutch government resigned, spent vast amounts of money to bring those guilty of the genocide to justice and the Dutch state paid compensation to the survivors of the massacre. The Sebrenica massacre is considered a black page in Dutch history.
• The Russian response to the catastrophe was to deny any responsibility, blaming anyone but themselves or their allies and hindering the process to bring the guilty to justice.

Unfortunately what you demonstrate here is that you think you know who did it BEFORE the investigation is complete.
Can you explain how is that you know?

. But those who have access to all the free media in the rest of the world and still make excuses for Putin's actions, they are either stupid or evil.

Is that you read it in the free media....or do you have some conclusive evidence?

If you already know who did it then why should we even have an investigation?
I'm sure there was a time when Dutch people like yourself waited until the investigation was over before claiming they knew who the guilty party was.
You want to claim that many Russians are stupid and evil but one could easily argue on the basis of what you have written that you need to examine yourself before you accuse others

 

[Will Wiley]

How is it that people know what happened before the investigation is finished and while it is kept secret.
They just believe whatever they are told, that's why