Russia: Don't look for who did the MH17 shootdown

[barbos]

Homeless with a spoon versus new and improved Ukrainian police

I find it unlikely that MH17 was brought down with a spoon, so I'm not sure what you think is the relevance of this video.

No relevance, just funny video from Ukraine to dilute serious discussion about Ukraine business.
Police wears US police uniform, and they are polite too, unlike old militia

 

[barbos]

And voting about this tribunal idea is delayed and US appears not terribly excited about it anyway.
Looks like idea did not come from US after all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Moscow calls for greater UN involvement in MH17 crash investigation, not ‘political propaganda game’

“We kept on repeating a completely obvious thing, that the UN Security Council should not engage in the creation of criminal courts, as the Malaysian initiative calls for. It’s simply not a statutory prerogative of the Security Council to create criminal courts and lead them under the rubric of a threat to international security,” Churkin said.

Makes sense

Because the UN has been heavily subverted by Russia.

 

[ZiprHead]

Homeless with a spoon versus new and improved Ukrainian police.

You're gonna scoop your eye out, kid.

 

[barbos]

Homeless with a spoon versus new and improved Ukrainian police.

You're gonna scoop your eye out, kid.

They are making fun of this and comparing to "Police Academy"
http://korrespondent.net/world/3537856-polytseiskaia-akademyia-ukrayny-memy-y-kouby-nedely#5

 

[tupac chopra]

Ukraine might be becoming the 51st US state?
US to pay salaries of Governor Saakashvili’s team in Odessa, Ukraine

The US government will pay the salaries to the staff of Georgia's former President Mikhail Saakashvili, who is now serving as a new governor of Odessa Region, Ukraine, Saakashvili said, adding that California police will also train Odessa’s officers

At least they fund quality people.

Saakashvili left Georgia in autumn 2013, days before his presidential term expired. He has been living abroad ever since.

In spring 2014, Georgia's new ruling coalition accused Saakashvili of embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars from the state budget. Georgia's prosecutors have started an investigation into the case. However, Saakashvili denies the charges against him, saying the funds went towards attracting foreign investors to the country.

Apart from embezzlement, Saakashvili has several other cases ongoing against him. He is accused of abuse of power during the crackdown on anti-government protests in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, on November 7, 2007. He was also allegedly involved in the attack on the opposition TV station Imedi, which was seized by Georgian special forces on the same day, and the appropriation of the founder's assets

 

[Ford]

Wow. I'm shocked that the pro Russian posters who unfailingly come down on the side of the Kremlin's official line showed up in this thread.

Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.


Well, nothing to see here, folks. The airliner was shot down by US backed Nazi Ukrainians. Don't question Putin. Move along.

 

[barbos]

Yes, US government pays Saakashvili's staff. They also pay for uniform of these new Kiev police. And Japanese pay for their patrol cars, by the way they crashed few of these 200 cars already.
Saakashvily is an interesting case. If you look at him objectively he is not that different from Putin, probably even "worse"
Since he left the presidency lot of real info about his reign was released. His only true accomplishment is getting rid of low level corruption in georgian police and bureaucracy. Georgia (and all Caucasian republics) are notorious for corruption and it is widely believed that it just can't be changed but Saakashvili apparently did just that. But the problem were his methods (torture and other extra-judicial crap), suffice to say that all georgian crime lords simply left Gerorgia (surprisingly for Russia) because they were afraid of that crap. I think you can be put to jail (and then tortured) simply for admitting or even being suspected to belonging to mafia ranks, no actual crime is required.
Also, he is a way bigger autocrat than Putin, georgian opposition will testify to that. And then of course his desire to get all these lost territories back.
Now he is in Ukraine and not a day goes by without new videos of Saakashvili having pretty ridiculous fights with people who question him. By the way, some of his opponents (In Georgia) think that the real reason he took this job was to prevent extradition to Georgia, now he has ukrainian citizenship and can not be extradited.

 

[Will Wiley]

Wow. I'm shocked that the pro Russian posters who unfailingly come down on the side of the Kremlin's official line showed up in this thread.
Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.
Well, nothing to see here, folks. The airliner was shot down by US backed Nazi Ukrainians. Don't question Putin. Move along.

The western media has questioned Putin from day one, so your remarks are naive.
But if you are old enough ypu probably believed your leaders when they lied about Tonkin Gulf and murdered many people. You probably believed your leaders when they lied about Iraq too.
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Can you at least explain why you believe them?
How many times do they have to lie? How many hundreds of thousands of people have to die before you question them?

 

[Cerberus]

Wow. I'm shocked that the pro Russian posters who unfailingly come down on the side of the Kremlin's official line showed up in this thread.
Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.
Well, nothing to see here, folks. The airliner was shot down by US backed Nazi Ukrainians. Don't question Putin. Move along.

The western media has questioned Putin from day one, so your remarks are naive.
But if you are old enough ypu probably believed your leaders when they lied about Tonkin Gulf and murdered many people. You probably believed your leaders when they lied about Iraq too.
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Can you at least explain why you believe them?
How many times do they have to lie? How many hundreds of thousands of people have to die before you question them?

Maybe Ford should watch Bitter Lake. Bloody hell, no wonder the Pentagon was incandescent about Snowden and that girly-boy soldier who spilled the beans.

 

[Ford]

The western media has questioned Putin from day one, so your remarks are naive.
But if you are old enough ypu probably believed your leaders when they lied about Tonkin Gulf and murdered many people. You probably believed your leaders when they lied about Iraq too.
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Can you at least explain why you believe them?
How many times do they have to lie? How many hundreds of thousands of people have to die before you question them?

Maybe Ford should watch Bitter Lake. Bloody hell, no wonder the Pentagon was incandescent about Snowden and that girly-boy soldier who spilled the beans.

Maybe you both should look up the term "red herring."

 

[laughing dog]

You just admitted beating your wife.

I'm pretty sure that if there is any beatings going on in the Sawyer household, Tom is the recipient not the giver.

 

[Will Wiley]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...rosecute-mh17-perpetrators/?intcmp=latestnews

If they know it's the Ukranians why wouldn't they be pushing for answers???

there is already a criminal investigation underway as well as a technical one.
The criminal investigation is being carried out in secret and is dominated by NATO counties and Ukraine itself who is one of the suspects. Any UN investigation would be based on that one. First step is to get that evidence and investigation out in the open.
Russia is right o veto that proposal. Lets get the evidence out in the open and not keep it secret. Also Russiia should be a party to any investigation and have access to whatever secrets are part of the current investigation.[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T87b9tpe_FA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Jayjay]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...rosecute-mh17-perpetrators/?intcmp=latestnews

If they know it's the Ukranians why wouldn't they be pushing for answers???

there is already a criminal investigation underway as well as a technical one.
The criminal investigation is being carried out in secret and is dominated by NATO counties and Ukraine itself who is one of the suspects. Any UN investigation would be based on that one. First step is to get that evidence and investigation out in the open.
Russia is right o veto that proposal. Lets get the evidence out in the open and not keep it secret. Also Russiia should be a party to any investigation and have access to whatever secrets are part of the current investigation.[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T87b9tpe_FA[/YOUTUBE]

Why should Russia have any more access than any other country?

Besides, of course the investigation is a secret. Investigations tend to be, so as not to prejudice the results or cause public outcries over lines of investigation that might not pan out. The results will be public, and will be released in October as planned.

 

[dystopian]

The criminal investigation is being carried out in secret and is dominated by NATO counties and Ukraine itself who is one of the suspects.

There are five participating countries in the criminal investigation, only two of which are NATO members; a fact which has nothing to do with anything. The Netherlands leads the investigation because the majority of the victims were Dutch. Belgium is a part of the investigation because it also lost people and because the two countries already highly integrated law enforcement capabilities through the Benelux union. Ukraine is part of the investigation because the crime took place in its de jure territory. Even if they were initially suspects (nobody except Russian propaganda considers Ukraine to be a credible suspect anymore), that doesn't change the neccessity of their cooperation in providing certain access to help the investigation.

Russia is right o veto that proposal. Lets get the evidence out in the open and not keep it secret.

First, criminal investigations are not conducted out in the open. Period. It doesn't matter if it's an international incident or a good old fashioned murder. If you want to understand why information is not publically released while an investigation is ongoing, then I suggest you might want to think it over again.

Secondly, by veto'ing the proposal Russia has, in the eyes of the international community, essentially admitted its guilt. The irony is that it doesn't seem to understand this. Russia and its fanboys' behavior is completely paranoid; claiming anything and everything as an attack against them. They constantly complain that people are treating them as guilty of shooting down the plane, and then derail the issue by complaining about NATO this, US that... but when someone proposes to set up an international tribunal to investigate and prosecute those responsible, it vetoes it and just shouts out its paranoid delusions of persecution some more. This sort of behavior may make perfect sense to Russians. If Russia truly has nothing to do with it, then it should be the first to support this tribunal. By vetoeing it, Russia just makes itself look even more guilty than it already looks.

Also Russiia should be a party to any investigation and have access to whatever secrets are part of the curret investigation.

Russia has absolutely no business being a party to any investigation. It is the prime suspect; the crime did not take place in its territory; and it suffered no losses. If I had committed a major crime, it'd be incredibly convenient if I could have full access to the ongoing investigation. Fortunately, Russia doesn't get to make such demands.

 

[Will Wiley]

There are five participating countries in the criminal investigation, only two of which are NATO members; a fact which has nothing to do with anything.

No, of course not , and Australia might as well be part of NATO. They have no independence.

The Netherlands leads the investigation because the majority of the victims were Dutch. Belgium is a part of the investigation because it also lost people and because the two countries already highly integrated law enforcement capabilities through the Benelux union. Ukraine is part of the investigation because the crime took place in its de jure territory. Even if they were initially suspects (nobody except Russian propaganda considers Ukraine to be a credible suspect anymore),

That is actually not true, though you might be unaware.
MH-17 Case Slips into Propaganda Fog

The Dutch investigation into the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine last July has failed to uncover conclusive proof of precisely who was responsible for the deaths of the 298 passengers and crew but is expected to point suspicions toward the ethnic Russian rebels, fitting with the West’s long-running anti-Russian propaganda campaign.

A source who has been briefed on the outlines of the investigation said some U.S. intelligence analysts have reached a contrary conclusion and place the blame on “rogue” elements of the Ukrainian government operating out of a circle of hard-liners around one of Ukraine’s oligarchs. Yet, according to this source, the U.S. analysts will demur on the Dutch findings, letting them stand without public challenge.

Secondly, by veto'ing the proposal Russia has, in the eyes of the international community, essentially admitted its guilt.

Ahh the old "international Community" furphy The same "internatioanl community" that ok's NATO and America's war crimes.

If Russia truly has nothing to do with it, then it should be the first to support this tribunal. By vetoeing it, Russia just makes itself look even more guilty than it already looks.

Better to have an impartial one. The Australians and the Dutch are not independent. And Ukraine is the prime suspect in many peoples eyes.

Russia has absolutely no business being a party to any investigation. It is the prime suspect; the crime did not take place in its territory; and it suffered no losses. If I had committed a major crime, it'd be incredibly convenient if I could have full access to the ongoing investigation.

Except you have no evidence that Russia committed the crime, but don't let that stop you believing what you making your mind up.

You are a classic example of people being duped by the media, and you can't even see it. You think Russia did it but you have no evidence.

 

[Will Wiley]

Malaysia plays UN court jester in MH17 vote

When Kiev refused to cooperate with the initial investigation and to this date has not turned over the air traffic controller tape logs, why was Malaysia not screaming “foul”? Why didn’t any of the EU countries or the US instruct Kiev that if it did not cooperate fully by turning over all of its evidence then Western financial assistance would be stopped on the spot? And where was Malaysia when the US – who we know was conducting 24/7 battlefield surveillance by satellite, navy radars and drones – never turned over any of their evidence?

On the other hand we did have a country turn over technical evidence, the only one who did… Russia. So, Malaysia’s grandstanding at the UN, trying to rub some mud on Russia by insisting on this vote earned my contempt. I pray that the victims’ families will read this and agree. They have been poorly served by their government, as have I by mine, who is also withholding evidence.

 

[Jayjay]

No, of course not , and Australia might as well be part of NATO. They have no independence.

The Netherlands leads the investigation because the majority of the victims were Dutch. Belgium is a part of the investigation because it also lost people and because the two countries already highly integrated law enforcement capabilities through the Benelux union. Ukraine is part of the investigation because the crime took place in its de jure territory. Even if they were initially suspects (nobody except Russian propaganda considers Ukraine to be a credible suspect anymore),

That is actually not true, though you might be unaware.
MH-17 Case Slips into Propaganda Fog

The Dutch investigation into the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine last July has failed to uncover conclusive proof of precisely who was responsible for the deaths of the 298 passengers and crew but is expected to point suspicions toward the ethnic Russian rebels, fitting with the West’s long-running anti-Russian propaganda campaign.

A source who has been briefed on the outlines of the investigation said some U.S. intelligence analysts have reached a contrary conclusion and place the blame on “rogue” elements of the Ukrainian government operating out of a circle of hard-liners around one of Ukraine’s oligarchs. Yet, according to this source, the U.S. analysts will demur on the Dutch findings, letting them stand without public challenge.

So, rather than wait for the investigation itself to finish, you would rather rely on an unverifiable quote from an unnamed source "who has been briefed on the outlines of the investigation" repeating an opinion of "some U.S intelligence analysts", who might not be even part of the investigation?

How about presenting actual evidence instead of hearsay adn Russian propaganda bullshit?

Secondly, by veto'ing the proposal Russia has, in the eyes of the international community, essentially admitted its guilt.

Ahh the old "international Community" furphy The same "internatioanl community" that ok's NATO and America's war crimes.

If Russia truly has nothing to do with it, then it should be the first to support this tribunal. By vetoeing it, Russia just makes itself look even more guilty than it already looks.

Better to have an impartial one. The Australians and the Dutch are not independent. And Ukraine is the prime suspect in many peoples eyes.

That's bullshit and you know it. Nowhere except in delusional world of conspiracy theories (and Russian propaganda) does being member or ally of NATO make a country politically subservient to it. The Dutch government faces a lot more pressure from their own public and families of the deceased than from NATO.

Ukraine isn't a prime suspect anymore in anywhere else except Russian propaganda trying to muddy the waters. But let's say, that you are right. What are the "independent" countries that you think should be conducting the investigation? Do note, that we don't want anyone who is member or even a close ally of either NATO, USA, Russia, EU, BRICS (by association wth Russia), or NAFTA (by association with USA). Who's left?

Russia has absolutely no business being a party to any investigation. It is the prime suspect; the crime did not take place in its territory; and it suffered no losses. If I had committed a major crime, it'd be incredibly convenient if I could have full access to the ongoing investigation.

Except you have no evidence that Russia committed the crime, but don't let that stop you believing what you making your mind up.

You are a classic example of people being duped by the media, and you can't even see it. You think Russia did it but you have no evidence.

The evidence for Russian involvement (the BUK sightings in and out of Russia, smoke trail coming from rebel-held territory, Russians and rebels celebrating the hit before they realized it was a civilian plane, etc.) has been discussed on this forum before. Remind us, what evidence have you provided exactly that doesn't come from Russian propaganda?

 

[dystopian]

No, of course not , and Australia might as well be part of NATO. They have no independence.

In the Russian/Pro-Russian mentality, every developed country is basically just a vassal state of the US with no independence whatsoever.

Australia is not a part of NATO, and pretending that they have no independence when clearly they do is just nonsense.

That is actually not true, though you might be unaware.
MH-17 Case Slips into Propaganda Fog

Congratulations, you found a single individual ranting on about media conspiracies and propaganda and claiming 'sources' said this or that with nothing to back it up. What a coup for you.

The same "internatioanl community" that ok's NATO and America's war crimes.

Trying to shift the focus towards the supposed wrongdoings of others is a cheap diversionary tactic that has been used by Russia and it's troll army since all this started. It has never been convincing or even particularly distracting. You can stomp your feet on the ground and cry or shout whatever the hell you want. It serves no purpose other than to prove Russia and its supporters are completely and utterly paranoid. NATO is the devil! Well what about literally everyone else on the planet? They supported the devil who is NATO! EVERYONE IS AGAINST US! TRUST NO ONE!

Better to have an impartial one. The Australians and the Dutch are not independent.

Of course we're independent.

And Ukraine is the prime suspect in many peoples eyes.

No, it isn't. It is the prime suspect only in the eyes of the Russian propaganda machine and those who are duped by it.

Except you have no evidence that Russia committed the crime, but don't let that stop you believing what you making your mind up.

It's well established by now that the missile was fired by pro-russian seperatists. And the evidence that these seperatists are directly supported by Russia has been presented numerous times before only to be outright ignored or simply denied without a coherent counter-argument by people like you.

Even if it were true that there was no evidence whatsoever; it doesn't change the facts that Russia and its proxy-agents are suspects... that the crime did not take place in its territory... and that it suffered no losses... meaning that it has no right whatsoever to be part of the investigation like you're demanding.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine isn't a prime suspect anymore

This implies that at some point they were, when?
If I remember correctly Russia have been assigned to be suspect from the day one. Long before any kind of data was analyzed.