Russia: Don't look for who did the MH17 shootdown

[Togo]

So Russian doesn't want an investigation, because....?

 

[barbos]

Russia wants real investigation, and tribunal is not a real investigation, in fact it's opposite of investigation, it's a way to shut investigation down and blame Russia.

 

[Will Wiley]

So Russian doesn't want an investigation, because....?

The Russians do want an investigation. they were the first ones to call for one.
the question is why don't they think the proposed one is appropriate.
The Russians put their evidence on the table from early on. they are the only ones to do so. The Americans and the Ukrainians have not.

the Americans have direct evidence of who did it. John Kerry himself said.

“We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory, we saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...hn-kerry-on-mh17/story-fn59nm2j-1227022300618

Some thing strange is going on though. Apparently the evidence does not agree with the accusations against Putin and or the anti coup forces.
We saw the exact same thing with Iraq. US intelligence did not agree with Washingtons claims that Iraq had WMD.

The Dutch investigation must know what happened. They know what was found in the bodies of the pilots. they can examine the plane and tell us where the missile came from and whether various other rumours are true. However we have nothing from them, and now an attempt to start another investigation.
All the while the important evidence is hidden, and we are left to look at facebook posts and twitter feeds.

US Intel Stands Pat on MH-17 Shoot-down

 

[Will Wiley]

If it is shown that Ukrainians under the command of Ihor Kolomoisky shot down MH17 it will be impossible for the US to support the regime in Kiev.

Americas direct evidence will not see the light of day. It is far too important that it never be known what happened. So with nothing coming from the phony Dutch investigation , yet another one is proposed that will drag on and on with no facts coming to light and no result, and all the while Russia will be the victim of sanctions.

Robert Parry remarks in the article I linked to.

I’ve been told by a source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts that a great deal of new information has been examined since the days immediately after the crash, but that the problem for U.S. policymakers is that the data led at least some analysts to conclude that the plane was shot down by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military, not by the rebels.

Yet, what has remained unclear to me is whether those analysts were part of a consensus or were dissenters within the U.S. intelligence community. But even if there was just dissent over the conclusions, that might explain why the DNI has not updated the initial sketchy report of July 22.

It is protocol within the intelligence community that when an assessment is released, it should include footnotes indicating areas of dissent. But to do that could undermine the initial certitude that Secretary of State John Kerry displayed on Sunday talks shows just days after the crash.

 

[dystopian]

The Russians do want an investigation. they were the first ones to call for one.

No they weren't.

Although they *were* the first, and thus far only ones, to call for an investigation in which they themselves play a leading role, I suppose.

the question is why don't they think the proposed one is appropriate.

Because the likely conclusion doesn't suit them, obviously.

The Russians put their evidence on the table from early on.

No, they didn't. Their 'evidence' consisted of flat out impossible claims like how it was shot by a specific type of fighter who was flying above its actual operating ceiling, "supported" by... absolutely nothing.

The Dutch investigation must know what happened. They know what was found in the bodies of the pilots. they can examine the plane and tell us where the missile came from and whether various other rumours are true. However we have nothing from them, and now an attempt to start another investigation.

No, we have an attempt to start a *tribunal*; to ensure that the results of the *existing* criminal investigation don't go to waste because the guilty parties will just fall under the protective umbrella of Russia who won't extradite them.

 

[fromderinside]

I keep hearing Veeger emitting "Kill, kill, kill, ...."

 

[Jayjay]

The Russians do want an investigation. they were the first ones to call for one.
the question is why don't they think the proposed one is appropriate.
The Russians put their evidence on the table from early on. they are the only ones to do so. The Americans and the Ukrainians have not.

A murderer who is caught with a bloody knife in his hand would of course be smart to shut up, call his lawyer and insist that there be an "investigation" before blame is assigned, would he not? The Russians proposed an investigation as a delaying tactic at a time when evidence started piling up showing Russian involvement. Now that the actual investigation is nearing completion with damning evidence against Russia, they are proposing another investigation by UN bodies where they could obstruct it. The Russian calls for investigations are not a honest truth-seeking, it's a ploy, one which Russia has used before in other contexts.

The Russian "evidence" has been debunked. The plane was not were the Russian MOD said it was, and the BUK was not where the Russian MOD said it was, and the satellite images of Ukrainian BUK that the Russian MOD was nowhere near where the missile was launched and was not even taken on the same day. So please, point exactly what evidence has Russia provided exactly that would in any way exenorate its involvement? Russia doesnt even admit it has forces in Eastern Ukraine, so it would be idiotic to believe anything Russia says without proof to back it up.

As for evidence from Americans or Ukrainians, the latter has certainly blurted out everything it knows. What Americans seem to not have published is the "imagery" that Kerry referred to on July 20th in his comments that they know the trajectory, and I grant you that. But even if such imagery doesn't exist it doesn't make the case against Russia any weaker because we have photos from the ground that show the smoke trail, and the location and movement of the BUK in rebel territory.

 

[Will Wiley]

But even if such imagery doesn't exist it doesn't make the case against Russia any weaker because we have photos from the ground that show the smoke trail,

There are a number of problems with the smoke trail. One beib that according to Dr Nral Krawetz the image has been manipulated.
MH17 – ‘Buk plume’ burns witness – Part I
Fotoforensics expert Dr. Krawetz: “Image is digitally altered”

Ukraines’s secret service SBU and other parties (photographer, Bellingcat, RTL Nieuws, Sergey Parkhomeno) all refuse to open source the original images they possess. Therefor Dr. Krawetz could only scrutinize the public BMP-file. His judgment is devastating nonetheless:

1) “2.bmp” smoke picture is digitally altered. (source)
2) Color density has 20-degree line far right of smoke. Shouldn’t be anything there = alteration. (source)
3) High entropy yet low quality = Artificial noise added to deter analysis. (source)

Dr. Krawetz in a few words destroys Bellingcat’s assessment the photo is not manipulated. Months before forensics expert Charles Wood already exposed many other basic flaws in Bellingcat’s analysis.
About another claim “Russia’s Ministry of Defense manipulated satellite images” Dr. Krawetz comments on the way Bellingcat used the Fotoforensics tool developed by him:

” ‘distances itself’? Understatement. I had nothing to do with their faulty analysis.” (source + read Spiegel)

and the location and movement of the BUK in rebel territory.

No we don't we have photos and videos of a buk but they are not on the right dates. We know that the anti coup forces captured a buk in late June. There are photos and videos of it but the dates claimed are wrong and the actual dates don't fit with it being a buk that could have shot down the plane.

Why don't you point to the evidence that convinced you?

 

[Will Wiley]

No, we have an attempt to start a *tribunal*; to ensure that the results of the *existing* criminal investigation don't go to waste

There are no results. It's a phoney investigation that has dragged on far too long. there won't be any results as all they have against Russia are some social media posts mainly from the SBU and Ukrainian ultra nationalists that don't add up.
We don't need that crap. They should have all the evidence they need. American satellite images, and the shrapnel found in those on board. We can tell from the damage to the plane that the Americans and the Ukrainians lied abou the missile coming from Snizhne.
The Dutch will do whatever they are told to do like good boys

 

[Jayjay]

There are a number of problems with the smoke trail. One beib that according to Dr Nral Krawetz the image has been manipulated.

Source? By googling Neal Krawetz, I was only able to find him debunking some satellite photo analysis, which is not what I'm talking about. Are you sure you are not confusing the two? I got no hits on the smoke trail photo:

and the location and movement of the BUK in rebel territory.

No we don't we have photos and videos of a buk but they are not on the right dates. We know that the anti coup forces captured a buk in late June. There are photos and videos of it but the dates claimed are wrong and the actual dates don't fit with it being a buk that could have shot down the plane

No, we don't "know" that the rebels captured anything. There are a few tweets claiming so, but Ukraine has not said there are any BUK's unaccounted for. Besides if you were Russia and you had your own BUK roaming in eastern Ukraine, wouldn't it make sense for you to plant a cover story for the contingency that it gets spotted?

I have not seen a convincing debunking of the BUK photos. The articles you linked last time raised some concern about conflicting times of day (and not even wrong dates) in some Ukrainian officials which doesn't debunk anything. If you have a point-by-point debunking of the analysis that for example Bellingcat did on the movements of the BUK, feel free to point it out.

 

[Jayjay]

No, we have an attempt to start a *tribunal*; to ensure that the results of the *existing* criminal investigation don't go to waste

There are no results. It's a phoney investigation that has dragged on far too long. there won't be any results as all they have against Russia are some social media posts mainly from the SBU and Ukrainian ultra nationalists that don't add up.
We don't need that crap. They should have all the evidence they need. American satellite images, and the shrapnel found in those on board. We can tell from the damage to the plane that the Americans and the Ukrainians lied abou the missile coming from Snizhne.
The Dutch will do whatever they are told to do like good boys

No, actually "we" can't tell anything of the sort from the damage. All you are doing is parroting Russian propaganda and Russian state-owned military industrial complex claiming so. The only independent study of the debris is being conducted by the Dutch safety board and they have not released a report on the damage yet.

It's pretty ballsy to blame the Dutch investigation to be biased because Netherlands is a NATO member, while taking reports that come straight from Russian military at face value.

 

[tupac chopra]

There are no results. It's a phoney investigation that has dragged on far too long. there won't be any results as all they have against Russia are some social media posts mainly from the SBU and Ukrainian ultra nationalists that don't add up.
We don't need that crap. They should have all the evidence they need. American satellite images, and the shrapnel found in those on board. We can tell from the damage to the plane that the Americans and the Ukrainians lied abou the missile coming from Snizhne.
The Dutch will do whatever they are told to do like good boys

No, actually "we" can't tell anything of the sort from the damage. All you are doing is parroting Russian propaganda and Russian state-owned military industrial complex claiming so. The only independent study of the debris is being conducted by the Dutch safety board and they have not released a report on the damage yet.

It's pretty ballsy to blame the Dutch investigation to be biased because Netherlands is a NATO member, while taking reports that come straight from Russian military at face value.

It's not the Russian military evidence .

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/GsohFzbJ-vs[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Jayjay]

No, actually "we" can't tell anything of the sort from the damage. All you are doing is parroting Russian propaganda and Russian state-owned military industrial complex claiming so. The only independent study of the debris is being conducted by the Dutch safety board and they have not released a report on the damage yet.

It's pretty ballsy to blame the Dutch investigation to be biased because Netherlands is a NATO member, while taking reports that come straight from Russian military at face value.

It's not the Russian military evidence .

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/GsohFzbJ-vs[/YOUTUBE]

Almaz-Antey is a Russian state-owned company. Furthremore, it is currently being targeted by sanctions due to its involvement in the conflict in Ukraine, and has every reason to lie. Besides, their presentation has holes that you could fly a 747 through.

 

[tupac chopra]

Almaz-Antey is a Russian state-owned company.

Ok but they aren't the military.

Furthremore, it is currently being targeted by sanctions due to its involvement in the conflict in Ukraine, and has every reason to lie. Besides, their presentation has holes that you could fly a 747 through.

What are the holes?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok but they aren't the military.

Furthremore, it is currently being targeted by sanctions due to its involvement in the conflict in Ukraine, and has every reason to lie. Besides, their presentation has holes that you could fly a 747 through.

What are the holes?

And why should we think a state-owned company is any more truthful than the military would be? That's about like putting a puppet on your hand and pretending it's independent.

 

[tupac chopra]

Ok but they aren't the military.
What are the holes?

And why should we think a state-owned company is any more truthful than the military would be? That's about like putting a puppet on your hand and pretending it's independent.

I'm sure they are all capable of lying. All governments lie, which is why we should not accept what "authorities" tell us but look at the evidence.
The evidence is that Washington and the Ukrainians lied about the missile coming from Snizhne. The pattern of fragment damage shows that.

 

[Ford]

Wow. All three of the unabashed pro-Russian propagandists have shown up!

 

[barbos]

The Russians do want an investigation. they were the first ones to call for one.
the question is why don't they think the proposed one is appropriate.
The Russians put their evidence on the table from early on. they are the only ones to do so. The Americans and the Ukrainians have not.

A murderer who is caught with a bloody knife in his hand would of course be smart to shut up, call his lawyer and insist that there be an "investigation" before blame is assigned, would he not? The Russians proposed an investigation as a delaying tactic at a time when evidence started piling up showing Russian involvement. Now that the actual investigation is nearing completion with damning evidence against Russia, they are proposing another investigation by UN bodies where they could obstruct it. The Russian calls for investigations are not a honest truth-seeking, it's a ploy, one which Russia has used before in other contexts.

The Russian "evidence" has been debunked. The plane was not were the Russian MOD said it was, and the BUK was not where the Russian MOD said it was, and the satellite images of Ukrainian BUK that the Russian MOD was nowhere near where the missile was launched and was not even taken on the same day. So please, point exactly what evidence has Russia provided exactly that would in any way exenorate its involvement? Russia doesnt even admit it has forces in Eastern Ukraine, so it would be idiotic to believe anything Russia says without proof to back it up.

As for evidence from Americans or Ukrainians, the latter has certainly blurted out everything it knows. What Americans seem to not have published is the "imagery" that Kerry referred to on July 20th in his comments that they know the trajectory, and I grant you that. But even if such imagery doesn't exist it doesn't make the case against Russia any weaker because we have photos from the ground that show the smoke trail, and the location and movement of the BUK in rebel territory.

You are blinded by your hate of Russia. Just because Russian government refuses to admit russian "forces" in Ukraine does not mean they lie about everything. Unfortunatelly all governments lie, even democratically elected ones from Europe.
Russian military most certainly have some people in Eastern Ukraine, but there are not as many as current Ukrainian "government" claims (20K-100K people). By your logic you should not trust Ukrainian government because they lie at ridiculous rate/proportion.

US government lies (understandably) about spying, it lied about Iraw WMD (less understandable), it lied about iran-contras, it lied about Vietnam war. Finnish government lies too, maybe proportionally less but they do.

Now back to MH17, In theory russian position is pretty safe and simple, they know they did not supply BUKs to rebels (that would be too stupid and pointless).
Worst that could happen investigation wise is that they determine that rebels used captured Ukrainian BUK, Russia can't be held responsible for that. Problem is, West does not listen, they blame Russia for everything regardless, facts, investigations don't matter.
Originally, I was in favor of rebels with captured BUK theory. But now, I am not so sure, "ukrainians did it" version looks suspiciously good.
But I guess we will know the truth in 50 years or so.

 

[barbos]

There are no results. It's a phoney investigation that has dragged on far too long. there won't be any results as all they have against Russia are some social media posts mainly from the SBU and Ukrainian ultra nationalists that don't add up.
We don't need that crap. They should have all the evidence they need. American satellite images, and the shrapnel found in those on board. We can tell from the damage to the plane that the Americans and the Ukrainians lied abou the missile coming from Snizhne.
The Dutch will do whatever they are told to do like good boys

No, actually "we" can't tell anything of the sort from the damage. All you are doing is parroting Russian propaganda and Russian state-owned military industrial complex claiming so. The only independent study of the debris is being conducted by the Dutch safety board and they have not released a report on the damage yet.

Calling it independent would be a bit of a stretch. Most of the passengers were dutch and Netherlands is a member of US lead NATO and both wholeheartedly supported Ukrainian coup in which neo-nazi played significant role.
Now, I am not an Air accident investigation junkie and don't know the usual procedures but it has been a year and they have not released anything worthwhile. I mean it does not take much time or effort to do what Almaz-Antey did and determine most likely trajectory of the missile.
They released something but as I said it was worthless in terms of clearing things up.
Even if there are some rules preventing them from releasing info I find that too convenient for the West to follow it in case they have evidence exonerating Russian involvement. If I was falsely accused in the crime and knew some evidence was withheld I would be mighty mad.

It's pretty ballsy to blame the Dutch investigation to be biased because Netherlands is a NATO member, while taking reports that come straight from Russian military at face value.

That's not what happening here. Almaz-Antey may be dependent but at least they are open about their "investigation". You can at least trash it, dutch are just not saying anything. To me it looks like they are withholding info which does not look good on official western theory. Not the first time it happened in this story.
Also I have said it before, Almaz-Antey is still a business even though it's state owned it has to make money and it makes money abroad. And if you listen carefully to the video they clearly act as people who are concerned about reputation as a business. Outright lie is much worse than being silent and Putin understands that better than anybody, so he would no go and order these engineers to lie.

 

[dystopian]

There are no results. It's a phoney investigation that has dragged on far too long.

You seem awfully certain of that. Surely you have actual proof of this (absurd) claim. Put up or shut up.

The Dutch will do whatever they are told to do like good boys

Once again, you're just trotting out the stock-standard paranoid russian claim that everyone is in the pocket of the US; thinking these paranoid delusions somehow qualify as an actual argument.

In reality, as anybody who actually pays attention the relations between these two countries will know, the Netherlands most certainly does *not* just follow along with whatever the US says or wants. The Dutch government frequently does the exact opposite of what the US wants of it; and there is actually very little the US can do to change that. This also applies to just about any other western country you care to name as a US pawn just so you can cry wolf about the US bullying Russia anytime *any* country at all takes aim at Russia. If you see European countries and the US acting in concert, it isn't because one is taking orders from the other, it's because their interests are aligned.