RussiaGate

[Copernicus]

Meaningful or not but US have been hopelessly trying to overthrow Putin at least since he decided not to retire and temporarily became prime minister in 2008. Of course the fact that Putin managed to maintain the high support makes the whole thing unfeasible in short term. They hoped that economic sanctions and low oil prices could shake the regime but it did not happen. But it does not mean that State Department will stop trying to find a way.

I don't think that they US has been making any effort whatsoever to overthrow Putin. Criticizing him for fixing elections and destroying democracy is not an attempt to overthrow him. It is just taking notice of what he is doing. Nor are his criticisms of the US attempts to overthrow our government. Using social media to undermine our election system--that is actually an attempt to overthrow our system of government. And he seems to have exceeded well beyond his expectations. He has used social media and hacking technology to undermine our election system. Republicans hold power and will do nothing about it, because they see Putin as supporting their political party. They could not have won the presidential election without him.

 

[barbos]

Meaningful or not but US have been hopelessly trying to overthrow Putin at least since he decided not to retire and temporarily became prime minister in 2008. Of course the fact that Putin managed to maintain the high support makes the whole thing unfeasible in short term. They hoped that economic sanctions and low oil prices could shake the regime but it did not happen. But it does not mean that State Department will stop trying to find a way.

I don't think that they US has been making any effort whatsoever to overthrow Putin. Criticizing him for fixing elections and destroying democracy is not an attempt to overthrow him. It is just taking notice of what he is doing. Nor are his criticisms of the US attempts to overthrow our government. Using social media to undermine our election system--that is actually an attempt to overthrow our system of government. And he seems to have exceeded well beyond his expectations. He has used social media and hacking technology to undermine our election system. Republicans hold power and will do nothing about it, because they see Putin as supporting their political party. They could not have won the presidential election without him.

You are wrong. Yes, Putin is not a big supporter of democracy to say the least, but US is trying to overthrow him. Just because US media fails to inform you of that does not mean it's not true.

 

[Copernicus]

Meaningful or not but US have been hopelessly trying to overthrow Putin at least since he decided not to retire and temporarily became prime minister in 2008. Of course the fact that Putin managed to maintain the high support makes the whole thing unfeasible in short term. They hoped that economic sanctions and low oil prices could shake the regime but it did not happen. But it does not mean that State Department will stop trying to find a way.

I don't think that they US has been making any effort whatsoever to overthrow Putin. Criticizing him for fixing elections and destroying democracy is not an attempt to overthrow him. It is just taking notice of what he is doing. Nor are his criticisms of the US attempts to overthrow our government. Using social media to undermine our election system--that is actually an attempt to overthrow our system of government. And he seems to have exceeded well beyond his expectations. He has used social media and hacking technology to undermine our election system. Republicans hold power and will do nothing about it, because they see Putin as supporting their political party. They could not have won the presidential election without him.

You are wrong. Yes, Putin is not a big supporter of democracy to say the least, but US is trying to overthrow him. Just because US media fails to inform you of that does not mean it's not true.

I did not mention the US media, which is only one source that I monitor. I also read Pravda (which I first subscribed to well before you were born). But I usually start my day with BBCNews, the Guardian, and Reuters, not the US media.

In any case, I pointed out the obvious to you--that merely criticizing the political process in another country is not the same as attempting to overthrow its government. If that were so, then Putin and other Russian politicians have equally been attempting to overthrow the US government. Direct interference in the election of a national leader in another country--THAT is more like an attempt to overthrow the legitimate leadership of that country. And there is every indication now that Russian intelligence services are even now in the process of direct meddling in our politics, whereas our President is clearly still struggling to find ways to cozy up to Putin.

 

[barbos]

You are wrong. Yes, Putin is not a big supporter of democracy to say the least, but US is trying to overthrow him. Just because US media fails to inform you of that does not mean it's not true.

I did not mention the US media, which is only one source that I monitor. I also read Pravda (which I first subscribed to well before you were born). But I usually start my day with BBCNews, the Guardian, and Reuters, not the US media.

I don't separate these from US media. And which Pravda? there are at least two of them and none of them are linked to Kremlin.
Paper version is still communist and opposes Putin.

In any case, I pointed out the obvious to you--that merely criticizing the political process in another country is not the same as attempting to overthrow its government. If that were so, then Putin and other Russian politicians have equally been attempting to overthrow the US government. Direct interference in the election of a national leader in another country--THAT is more like an attempt to overthrow the legitimate leadership of that country. And there is every indication now that Russian intelligence services are even now in the process of direct meddling in our politics, whereas our President is clearly still struggling to find ways to cozy up to Putin.

I am not talking about criticizing, I am talking about meddling, USAID and other organizations.

 

[rousseau]

Meaningful or not but US have been hopelessly trying to overthrow Putin at least since he decided not to retire and temporarily became prime minister in 2008. Of course the fact that Putin managed to maintain the high support makes the whole thing unfeasible in short term. They hoped that economic sanctions and low oil prices could shake the regime but it did not happen. But it does not mean that State Department will stop trying to find a way.

I don't think that they US has been making any effort whatsoever to overthrow Putin. Criticizing him for fixing elections and destroying democracy is not an attempt to overthrow him. It is just taking notice of what he is doing. Nor are his criticisms of the US attempts to overthrow our government. Using social media to undermine our election system--that is actually an attempt to overthrow our system of government. And he seems to have exceeded well beyond his expectations. He has used social media and hacking technology to undermine our election system. Republicans hold power and will do nothing about it, because they see Putin as supporting their political party. They could not have won the presidential election without him.

You are wrong. Yes, Putin is not a big supporter of democracy to say the least, but US is trying to overthrow him. Just because US media fails to inform you of that does not mean it's not true.

Even if true the Russian people aren't overly supportive of him either, are they? So wouldn't Putin being overthrown be a good thing for everyone but Putin and the elite he supports?

 

[barbos]

You are wrong. Yes, Putin is not a big supporter of democracy to say the least, but US is trying to overthrow him. Just because US media fails to inform you of that does not mean it's not true.

Even if true the Russian people aren't overly supportive of him either, are they? So wouldn't Putin being overthrown be a good thing for everyone but Putin and the elite he supports?

Yes, that's what neocons think. Libyans, Syrians and ukrainians might disagree, though.

Or let me give another example. Hillary was a bad candidate, so how is not electing her is working out for you?

 

[Malintent]

It is incredibly dishonest to call an investigation into illegal activity of a political figure a "witch hunt" and "nothing burger" specifically because the media has not publically reported any of the top secret information that is forming the evidence to charge a crime... and then at the same time make statements like, "just because the media isn't telling you doesn't mean its not true".
Such a person is a Troll, a liar, or an ignorant tool, unworthy of consideration.

 

[rousseau]

You are wrong. Yes, Putin is not a big supporter of democracy to say the least, but US is trying to overthrow him. Just because US media fails to inform you of that does not mean it's not true.

Even if true the Russian people aren't overly supportive of him either, are they? So wouldn't Putin being overthrown be a good thing for everyone but Putin and the elite he supports?

Yes, that's what neocons think. Libyans, Syrians and ukrainians might disagree, though.

Or let me give another example. Hillary was a bad candidate, so how is not electing her is working out for you?

Trying to parse this point. Do you mean that democracy isn't ideal because it doesn't always produce ideal outcomes?

 

[ZiprHead]

Breaking News - Mueller Indicts Thirteen Russians For Election Meddling

 

[Elixir]

It is incredibly dishonest to call an investigation into illegal activity of a political figure a "witch hunt" and "nothing burger" specifically because the media has not publically reported any of the top secret information that is forming the evidence to charge a crime...

Considering the number of indictments and guilty pleas already in place, this "witch hunt" is turning up record numbers of witches, and it would be hard for a normal person to get their mouth around such a big fat "nothing-burger".

 

[ElectEngr]

Breaking News - Mueller Indicts Thirteen Russians For Election Meddling

But...But...But...a Grand Jury would indict a Ham Sandwich?....but...but...but...What about Hillary?...

Are they still in the country or have they gone back to the Soviet Union?

Later,
ElectEngr

 

[PyramidHead]

Breaking News - Mueller Indicts Thirteen Russians For Election Meddling

But...But...But...a Grand Jury would indict a Ham Sandwich?....but...but...but...What about Hillary?...

Are they still in the country or have they gone back to the Soviet Union?

Later,
ElectEngr

Anybody seen whichphilosophy lately?

 

[starwater]

I hope this is the first of many, many more.

 

[barbos]

Yes, that's what neocons think. Libyans, Syrians and ukrainians might disagree, though.

Or let me give another example. Hillary was a bad candidate, so how is not electing her is working out for you?

Trying to parse this point. Do you mean that democracy isn't ideal because it doesn't always produce ideal outcomes?

No, I don't mean that. I just have aversion to methods of imposing democracy US practice, and actual intent behind these attempts.
Maybe Libya and Syria are not good examples (for Russia) but Ukraine is. Convince me that faceless policy makers in US did not plan that all along? And convince me that their actual plan for Russia is not the same?

 

[Elixir]

I hope this is the first of many, many more.

Take it to the bank. The main takeaway from this indictment is that Mueller's team have an amazingly detailed set of facts. So much so that any Russian operative following in the footsteps of those named in the indictment are now looking over their shoulders. Meanwhile, the rats on the sinking Trump ship are scrambling for positions on the inadequate lifeboats. Trump is caught on the bridge - he can't do or say one thing that might meet with Putin's disapproval, or that hammer will drop. But he can't keep overtly undermining the US government - which he has to do in order to maintain Putin's approval - without making it increasingly likely that Congress will flip and he will be impeached and removed, then criminally prosecuted. Will Pence then torpedo the GOP by pardoning him when he's charged with treason?
There are no good options for this cabal, except to invite a military conflict and hope he can impose martial law.

 

[barbos]

I hope this is the first of many, many more.

Take it to the bank. The main takeaway from this indictment is that Mueller's team have an amazingly detailed set of facts. So much so that any Russian operative following in the footsteps of those named in the indictment are now looking over their shoulders.

You do realize that these russians are all in Russia? Not being able to travel to US/Europe IS inconvenient for these people, but not the end of the world. As for Putin, he can indict people in US government with exactly same charges.

 

[Opoponax]

I hope this is the first of many, many more.

Take it to the bank. The main takeaway from this indictment is that Mueller's team have an amazingly detailed set of facts. So much so that any Russian operative following in the footsteps of those named in the indictment are now looking over their shoulders.

You do realize that these russians are all in Russia? Not being able to travel to US/Europe IS inconvenient for these people, but not the end of the world. As for Putin, he can indict people in US government with exactly same charges.

That's not really the point. The point is to publicly show that it happened and put an end to Trump's calling it a hoax, and to show what a weak ineffectual son of a whore he is. The nation's security is at stake and he's doing nothing but (get this) appeasing Vladimir Putin.

"Appeasing." Remember when the conservatives used to love that word every time Carter or Clinton or Obama didn't start dropping thousand pound bombs on 3rd world villages because they burned an American flag or some other such trivial horse shit?

Now Trump can't get Putin's cock out of his mouth and, well, they don't really talk about that.

But that's a new moniker for Trump: Appeaser in Chief.

 

[barbos]

You do realize that these russians are all in Russia? Not being able to travel to US/Europe IS inconvenient for these people, but not the end of the world. As for Putin, he can indict people in US government with exactly same charges.

That's not really the point. The point is to publicly show that it happened and put an end to Trump's calling it a hoax, and to show what a weak ineffectual son of a whore he is. The nation's security is at stake and he's doing nothing but (get this) appeasing Vladimir Putin.

And what exactly this "it" is? Russians interfering in the elections does not mean collusion. So Trump is right at least about that.
Anyway, the point was that this indictment would scare Russian operatives. I merely pointed out that it would not.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You do realize that these russians are all in Russia? Not being able to travel to US/Europe IS inconvenient for these people, but not the end of the world. As for Putin, he can indict people in US government with exactly same charges.

That's not really the point. The point is to publicly show that it happened and put an end to Trump's calling it a hoax, and to show what a weak ineffectual son of a whore he is. The nation's security is at stake and he's doing nothing but (get this) appeasing Vladimir Putin.

And what exactly this "it" is? Russians interfering in the elections does not mean collusion. So Trump is right at least about that.
Anyway, the point was that this indictment would scare Russian operatives. I merely pointed out that it would not.

Do you have any direct evidence that Ruzsian operatives are still at it?

 

[barbos]

And what exactly this "it" is? Russians interfering in the elections does not mean collusion. So Trump is right at least about that.
Anyway, the point was that this indictment would scare Russian operatives. I merely pointed out that it would not.

Do you have any direct evidence that Ruzsian operatives are still at it?

No, And I don't have direct evidence they were at it before.