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RussiaGate

Top intelligence official told associates Trump asked him if he could intervene with Comey on FBI Russia probe - The Washington Post

The nation’s top intelligence official told associates in March that President Trump asked him if he could intervene with then-FBI Director James B. Comey to get the bureau to back off its focus on former national security adviser Michael Flynn in its Russia probe, according to officials.

We have one person's version given to the Media. According to Putin he sat at the same table and Flynn during a dinner with a lot of people present. Putin spoke and left early. He claims he was only made familiar with Flynn when one of his officials told him who Flynn was.

Hearsay is difficult to make judgements on. At the moment the media is simply feeding off one sided titbits, hence there is no real means to evaluate the truth.

The courts, science labs and rational research based on evidence based logic is used by those who base opinions on material matters on weight of or indefeasible evidence.

On the other hand the bottom-feeders of the press who grab at morsels from anonymous sources (such as donkeys' bottoms) pander to the intellectually lame and the mentally crippled.
 
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WP, virtually nothing you said is relevant to that story. :oops:
 

We have one person's version given to the Media. According to Putin he sat at the same table and Flynn during a dinner with a lot of people present. Putin spoke and left early. He claims he was only made familiar with Flynn when one of his officials told him who Flynn was.

Hearsay is difficult to make judgements on. At the moment the media is simply feeding off one sided titbits, hence there is no real means to evaluate the truth.

The courts, science labs and rational research based on evidence based logic is used by those who base opinions on material matters on weight of or indefeasible evidence.

On the other hand the bottom-feeders of the press who grab at morsels from anonymous sources (such as donkeys' bottoms) pander to the intellectually lame and the mentally crippled.

How is logical relevance defined in the UK?

Here, under the Federal Rules, evidence is logically relevant when it has any tendency to prove or disprove a fact of consequence, or make any fact of consequence more or less probable than it would be without the Evidence. However, even logically relevant evidence may be excluded when its probative value is substantially outweighed by the dangers of unfair prejudice, confusion, misleading the jury, or when its presentation is unnecessarily cumulative. The court balances the probativeness of the logical evidence against its prejudicial effects.

Now, whether evidence is admissible as hearsay depends on whether it falls under an exception or an exclusion, of which there are many. Things like newspaper articles may be judicially noticed (courts take judicial notice of indisputable facts that are either matters of common knowledge in the community or capable of verification by resort to easily accessible sources of unquestionable accuracy), that is, the court may take notice of them and admit them, for example, as evidence of a person's prior consistent or inconsistent statement if presented with them by counsel. The court has wide discretion in this (and many) matters, so it depends once again on relevance and any unduly prejudicial effects, and of course reliability. Once admitted, the evidence can be used to impeach a witness or a defendant provided it doesn't fall into an inadmissible form of character evidence, which is overcome in case where the primary issue involves character (e.g. defamation or in a Trump case, fraud). There's much more to it than that though, really.

The point is, newspaper articles covering statements may or may not be admissible depending on what's in them and who said what. Evidence of this is clear in the fact that the courts who have struck down Trump's travel ban have explicitly taken notice of the language used by Trump and his people who in the past referred to it as a Muslim ban. This is because regardless of the words contained in the writing of a law, if the intent behind the law is discriminatory against a given class of people, the law will be struck down as unconstitutional. In a case of discrimination against national origin, the courts use the highest level of scrutiny, which is known here as "strict scrutiny." Very rarely does anything survive strict scrutiny. The saying is "strict in theory, dead in fact."

So as you can see, public statements posted in the media can be used in court. And really, it's the lawyers who will bring this information to be assessed for its admissibility. That the court can take notice of something is actually almost incidental, but it shows you that statements made in media by certain individuals as well as their conduct, can be admitted into evidence under the appropriate circumstances.

So all this horse-shit railing you're doing against the media is just that: horse-shit. Some of it would be admissible in court, some of it wouldn't. So to deride it all as hogwash is either the result of willful ignorance, or just plain ignorance.
 
We have one person's version given to the Media. According to Putin he sat at the same table and Flynn during a dinner with a lot of people present. Putin spoke and left early. He claims he was only made familiar with Flynn when one of his officials told him who Flynn was.

Hearsay is difficult to make judgements on. At the moment the media is simply feeding off one sided titbits, hence there is no real means to evaluate the truth.

The courts, science labs and rational research based on evidence based logic is used by those who base opinions on material matters on weight of or indefeasible evidence.

On the other hand the bottom-feeders of the press who grab at morsels from anonymous sources (such as donkeys' bottoms) pander to the intellectually lame and the mentally crippled.

How is logical relevance defined in the UK?

Here, under the Federal Rules, evidence is logically relevant when it has any tendency to prove or disprove a fact of consequence, or make any fact of consequence more or less probable than it would be without the Evidence. However, even logically relevant evidence may be excluded when its probative value is substantially outweighed by the dangers of unfair prejudice, confusion, misleading the jury, or when its presentation is unnecessarily cumulative. The court balances the probativeness of the logical evidence against its prejudicial effects.

Now, whether evidence is admissible as hearsay depends on whether it falls under an exception or an exclusion, of which there are many. Things like newspaper articles may be judicially noticed (courts take judicial notice of indisputable facts that are either matters of common knowledge in the community or capable of verification by resort to easily accessible sources of unquestionable accuracy), that is, the court may take notice of them and admit them, for example, as evidence of a person's prior consistent or inconsistent statement if presented with them by counsel. The court has wide discretion in this (and many) matters, so it depends once again on relevance and any unduly prejudicial effects, and of course reliability. Once admitted, the evidence can be used to impeach a witness or a defendant provided it doesn't fall into an inadmissible form of character evidence, which is overcome in case where the primary issue involves character (e.g. defamation or in a Trump case, fraud). There's much more to it than that though, really.

The point is, newspaper articles covering statements may or may not be admissible depending on what's in them and who said what. Evidence of this is clear in the fact that the courts who have struck down Trump's travel ban have explicitly taken notice of the language used by Trump and his people who in the past referred to it as a Muslim ban. This is because regardless of the words contained in the writing of a law, if the intent behind the law is discriminatory against a given class of people, the law will be struck down as unconstitutional. In a case of discrimination against national origin, the courts use the highest level of scrutiny, which is known here as "strict scrutiny." Very rarely does anything survive strict scrutiny. The saying is "strict in theory, dead in fact."

So as you can see, public statements posted in the media can be used in court. And really, it's the lawyers who will bring this information to be assessed for its admissibility. That the court can take notice of something is actually almost incidental, but it shows you that statements made in media by certain individuals as well as their conduct, can be admitted into evidence under the appropriate circumstances.

So all this horse-shit railing you're doing against the media is just that: horse-shit. Some of it would be admissible in court, some of it wouldn't. So to deride it all as hogwash is either the result of willful ignorance, or just plain ignorance.

You didn't contradict anything but expanded on what I was saying.

evidence is logically relevant when it has any tendency to prove or disprove a fact of consequence, or make any fact of consequence more or less probable than it would be without the Evidence.

What you say just after and beyond is true.

There is always evidence but then what you are saying is about weighing it and avoiding bias.
 
So umm... I don't know if they can impeach based on Comey's testimony alone, but like we suspected, it is thorough and clearly seems to indicate Comey was fired in an attempt to obstruct justice regarding Flynn and Russia.

Oh wait, we have that Trump guy who stated flat out the firing of Comey relieved him of the Russia stress. So there are two people then.

I'm curious, is there a reason not to impeach Trump now, I mean one that isn't grossly partisan? Isn't obstructing an FBI investigation against the law? Isn't that a serious crime? Isn't that why Nixon ultimately resigned when he asked the CIA to denounce the investigation? Trump already did that too!
 
So umm... I don't know if they can impeach based on Comey's testimony alone, but like we suspected, it is thorough and clearly seems to indicate Comey was fired in an attempt to obstruct justice regarding Flynn and Russia.

Oh wait, we have that Trump guy who stated flat out the firing of Comey relieved him of the Russia stress. So there are two people then.

I'm curious, is there a reason not to impeach Trump now, I mean one that isn't grossly partisan? Isn't obstructing an FBI investigation against the law? Isn't that a serious crime? Isn't that why Nixon ultimately resigned when he asked the CIA to denounce the investigation? Trump already did that too!

Trump's known transgressions already greatly exceed anything Nixon ever did. The reason the rethuglicans aren't on board with impeaching him yet amounts to "Well, that's just Trump being Trump." IOW, they have knowingly thrown their support behind a treasonous liar, conman and sexual predator.
 
I'm curious, is there a reason not to impeach Trump now, I mean one that isn't grossly partisan?


Grossly partisan perfectly describes Republicans in Congress. There won't be an impeachment. Even if Trump is found to have obstructed justice, or even colluded with the Russians.

On the other hand, if Clinton had won the election impeachment proceedings would already be underway.
 
I'm curious, is there a reason not to impeach Trump now, I mean one that isn't grossly partisan?


Grossly partisan perfectly describes Republicans in Congress. There won't be an impeachment. Even if Trump is found to have obstructed justice, or even colluded with the Russians.

On the other hand, if Clinton had won the election impeachment proceedings would already be underway.

So, you figure he's safe until 2019 at the earliest?
I'm not so sure. The rethuglicans are uniform in only one respect - they're self interested. If they sense that their jobs might be imperiled by association with Cheato, I think they'll make a great showing of distancing themselves, and voting for impeachment would be the best demonstration of their non-association.
 
I'm curious, is there a reason not to impeach Trump now, I mean one that isn't grossly partisan?
Grossly partisan perfectly describes Republicans in Congress. There won't be an impeachment. Even if Trump is found to have obstructed justice, or even colluded with the Russians.

On the other hand, if Clinton had won the election impeachment proceedings would already be underway.
Underway? They'd been during the electoral college vote count!

But I meant more as a legal question. President Clinton lied under oath about getting a blowjob. I suppose that in some way could be considered more concrete because there was a dress that indicated he somehow made with some sort of fun with Lewinsky, and Clinton had Grand Jury testimony in the record. No dress in the Trump case, but we have the former FBI Director with documents put together when he was acting FBI Director indicating a clear path by Trump. And we have Trump's own words about it. Is this not a clear violation of the law and impeachable? Clearly lying about a blowjob had nothing to do with Clinton's job as President other than having sex while on the clock, but honestly, isn't that the American dream?

Trump obstructed an investigation into his own administration. That seems to pass the standard set by the Republicans in the late 90's by a long shot, but more importantly, seems to pass a reasonable threshold as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Grossly partisan perfectly describes Republicans in Congress. There won't be an impeachment. Even if Trump is found to have obstructed justice, or even colluded with the Russians.

On the other hand, if Clinton had won the election impeachment proceedings would already be underway.

So, you figure he's safe until 2019 at the earliest?
I'm not so sure. The rethuglicans are uniform in only one respect - they're self interested. If they sense that their jobs might be imperiled by association with Cheato, I think they'll make a great showing of distancing themselves, and voting for impeachment would be the best demonstration of their non-association.
Of the most recent approval polls, only one has Trump above 40%, and there is a slight uptick in his disapproval. I think this testimony could impact it more, but how much more is to be seen.
 
Grossly partisan perfectly describes Republicans in Congress. There won't be an impeachment. Even if Trump is found to have obstructed justice, or even colluded with the Russians.

On the other hand, if Clinton had won the election impeachment proceedings would already be underway.

So, you figure he's safe until 2019 at the earliest?
I'm not so sure. The rethuglicans are uniform in only one respect - they're self interested. If they sense that their jobs might be imperiled by association with Cheato, I think they'll make a great showing of distancing themselves, and voting for impeachment would be the best demonstration of their non-association.

Thanks to gerrymandering, the likelihood of Republican Representatives losing their seats to Democrats is pretty small. Congress as a whole has had a pitiful approval rating for a long time, yet the GOP remains firmly in control of the House. Republicans also circle the wagons with great regularity. When Trump got the nomination, even those he belittled and humiliated (like Christie and "Little Marco") fell in line pretty quickly, and there's been no sign of a revolt against Trump even though his administration has been a disaster from day one.

In order for them to really fear their jobs, there would have to be clear and unambiguous evidence that Trump committed a felony (or several), plus demands from their base in their districts for impeachment plus the threat of a primary challenge by pro-impeachment Republicans.
 
In the meantime, I think the GOP would rather talk about Russia than health care, and I half expect a stealth launch from the Senate with a new bill.
 
So, you figure he's safe until 2019 at the earliest?
I'm not so sure. The rethuglicans are uniform in only one respect - they're self interested. If they sense that their jobs might be imperiled by association with Cheato, I think they'll make a great showing of distancing themselves, and voting for impeachment would be the best demonstration of their non-association.

Thanks to gerrymandering, the likelihood of Republican Representatives losing their seats to Democrats is pretty small. Congress as a whole has had a pitiful approval rating for a long time, yet the GOP remains firmly in control of the House. Republicans also circle the wagons with great regularity. When Trump got the nomination, even those he belittled and humiliated (like Christie and "Little Marco") fell in line pretty quickly, and there's been no sign of a revolt against Trump even though his administration has been a disaster from day one.

In order for them to really fear their jobs, there would have to be clear and unambiguous evidence that Trump committed a felony (or several), plus demands from their base in their districts for impeachment plus the threat of a primary challenge by pro-impeachment Republicans.

Rubio was loitering near the lifeboats in yesterday's hearing, but I'll agree that there hasn't been any meaningful action from Republican politicians. The silver lining is that isn't true of the entire Republican/Conservative block. Guys like David Frum have been pretty vocal in opposition
 
So umm... I don't know if they can impeach based on Comey's testimony alone, but like we suspected, it is thorough and clearly seems to indicate Comey was fired in an attempt to obstruct justice regarding Flynn and Russia.

Oh wait, we have that Trump guy who stated flat out the firing of Comey relieved him of the Russia stress. So there are two people then.

I'm curious, is there a reason not to impeach Trump now, I mean one that isn't grossly partisan? Isn't obstructing an FBI investigation against the law? Isn't that a serious crime? Isn't that why Nixon ultimately resigned when he asked the CIA to denounce the investigation? Trump already did that too!

I think it's a little early too call for impeachment. I want to see the investigations of Russia dealing more fleshed out. I understand Justice is bringing on lawyers experienced in organized crime and money laundering investigation and prosecution. I don't want Trump and his people just impeached and thrown out of office. I want to see them as guests of the iron bar hotel.
 
I've been really surprised by the people who have been saying "no evidence of obstruction of justice," even those who clearly do not like Trump and want him gone, but I think I've figured it out. People are confused about what obstruction of justice actually is. They think that a person has committed it only if the investigation they were trying to derail is about their own criminal behavior. I'm not an attorney, but according to any of the law pages you can find, obstruction of justice is derailing any criminal investigation about any person for any reason. Trump bringing up Comey's job, asking for loyalty, asking Comey to drop the charges against Flynn, firing Comey when he didn't, and then telling both Russian officials and Lester Holt that the firing was about the investigation Comey was leading seems to be a clear-cut case. I'm sure in some partisan cases it is willful ignorance to not recognize this, but I think that some people really believe that Trump did not break the law despite acknowledging that Trump tried to stop the investigation of Flynn. I find that surprising to say the least.
 
Allowing Justice - Telling investigators of your potential illegal activity to stop investigating you.
Obstruction of Justice - if public officials ask questions about your personal life and you respond "it depends on what the meaning of is is."
 
I've been really surprised by the people who have been saying "no evidence of obstruction of justice," even those who clearly do not like Trump and want him gone, but I think I've figured it out. People are confused about what obstruction of justice actually is. They think that a person has committed it only if the investigation they were trying to derail is about their own criminal behavior. I'm not an attorney, but according to any of the law pages you can find, obstruction of justice is derailing any criminal investigation about any person for any reason. Trump bringing up Comey's job, asking for loyalty, asking Comey to drop the charges against Flynn, firing Comey when he didn't, and then telling both Russian officials and Lester Holt that the firing was about the investigation Comey was leading seems to be a clear-cut case. I'm sure in some partisan cases it is willful ignorance to not recognize this, but I think that some people really believe that Trump did not break the law despite acknowledging that Trump tried to stop the investigation of Flynn. I find that surprising to say the least.

Further to that, it doesn't even matter if the investigation being obstructed concluded that no crime had taken place. Obstructing the process of investigation is still a crime, even if the investigation being obstructed determined that no crime occurred.
 
I'm too busy to add much of anything to this. But it appears that what Trump did is easily enough for a prosecutor to bring charges (firing Comey in an attempt to obstruct an investigation; all highlights are mine). It also seems that a federal court would hear the case because the facts as applied to the law present evidence sufficient for a trial. Similarly, there are enough facts for a jury to decide whether a crime was committed. Of course, this is not the way it would go for Trump (impeachment in the House, conviction in the Senate). However, the legal standards are there for a criminal indictment of a very serious charge. To say that it's a felony belabors the obvious. Anyway, have fun.

II. THE OMNIBUS PROVISION
Section 1503 is known as the Omnibus Obstruction Provision3 (“Omnibus Provision”) because it applies to a broad range of conduct.4 The goal of the Omnibus Provision is to “ensure that criminals [cannot] circumvent the law's purpose by devising novel and creative schemes that would interfere with administration of justice but would nonetheless fall outside the scope of § 1503's specific prohibitions.”5 The Omnibus Provision protects jurors and judicial officers from threats, intimidation, and retaliation.6 It is designed to “prevent miscarriages of justice” and “reduce the burden on the justice system.”7 Section 1505 applies to conduct similar to that addressed by § 1503, but in the context of federal agency proceedings rather than court proceedings.8 Section 1510 has extended the protection afforded by §§ 1503 and 1505 to potential witnesses.9

A. Scope of § 1503
Section 1503 is designed to “protect individuals involved in federal judicial proceedings and to prevent ‘miscarriage of justice by corrupt methods.”’10 The statute forbids corruptly influencing or endeavoring to influence any grand or petit juror or officer of the court by threats or force, or by letter or communication.11 The Omnibus Clause punishes a broad range of actions12 and functions as a “catchall, prohibiting persons from endeavoring to influence, obstruct, or impede the due administration of justice”13 when the persons' actions have the “natural and probable” effect of interfering with the due administration of justice
 
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