RussiaGate

[Elixir]

You are like these smokers who got cancer, trying to find other causes of their cancer.
The cause of downfall of Great USA will be...... bunch of fat russian hackers/trolls.

George Washington already predicted what the downfall of the USA would be... It would be "from the inside out". The treasonous insurrectionists both in government and in our population attempted, and failed, to bring down the US that way.

The uneducated, fat, communists that have to wait on line for 8 hours to be given their monthly ration of bread, with their rusted and useless war machines and worthless currency is not, in any shape or form, even a tiny little risk to the USA. They will go the fate of North Korea and disappear into irrelevance.

I think they're more likely to adopt the China model, and (continue to) insinuate themselves into the power structures of third world nation, even at the expense of relegating their own populace to living in similar conditions.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are like these smokers who got cancer, trying to find other causes of their cancer.
The cause of downfall of Great USA will be...... bunch of fat russian hackers/trolls.

Russian Bots are certainly instigating and promoting division. They are a piece of the problem. They certainly didn't start the fire, but they are certainly adding fuel to the fire.

 

[Elixir]

You are like these smokers who got cancer, trying to find other causes of their cancer.
The cause of downfall of Great USA will be...... bunch of fat russian hackers/trolls.

Russian Bots are certainly instigating and promoting division. They are a piece of the problem. They certainly didn't start the fire, but they are certainly adding fuel to the fire.

Putin is a bad actor. From what I can tell, even barbos agrees with that. His intent, and therefore Russia's intent, is to help destroy American democracy. Putin understandably sees actual functioning democracy as a threat to his personal supremacy, which is that of an autocrat pretending to represent the democratic choice of his population.
Having successfully installed his puppet, he spent four years trying in vain to teach and encourage that puppet to follow his lead and seize control of the government by force.
It very very nearly worked.
But the puppet lacked both the courage and the smarts to pull it off. However there is sufficient division left in the wake of the puppet's defeat that Putin may be able to exploit it, and effect the transition to autocracy after all, with the assistance of the remaining leaders of the defeated party.
I am sure that even now, Putin continues to read the playbook to Trump, whose role has been diminished to that of messenger, though he probably doesn't realize it yet.

That the elements of this meticulous destruction of democracy existed before Putin took such an active role in exploiting them, is sufficient to declare Putin's and Russia's innocence in the matter only if one tends toward Russian Nationalism, which barbos obviously does.

 

[TomC]

Putin is a bad actor.

Putin is competently and ruthlessly pursuing the best interests of his country and it's elite.

If that makes him a bad actor, has the USA had a president since WWII who isn't a bad actor?

Tom

 

[Elixir]

Putin is a bad actor.

Putin is competently and ruthlessly pursuing the best interests of his country and it's elite.

If that makes him a bad actor, has the USA had a president since WWII who isn't a bad actor?

Tom

Yes.
Eisenhower.
Carter.

It is disingenuous to refer to a "country and its elites" as if they are the same thing.

 

[TomC]

Putin is a bad actor.

Putin is competently and ruthlessly pursuing the best interests of his country and it's elite.

If that makes him a bad actor, has the USA had a president since WWII who isn't a bad actor?

Tom

Yes.
Eisenhower.
Carter.

It is disingenuous to refer to a "country and its elites" as if they are the same thing.

I definitely put those two in a category far better than most presidents. Obama is a firm maybe.



Carter was the best, and look what that got him.

I don't think it's disingenuous to refer to the elite as "the country" when the subject is the government. They are the people the government is representing, like it or not. I understand that it's not supposed to be that way. I'm talking about the reality.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Carter was the best, and look what that got him.

Definitely a salient point, but the last chapter in that book is not yet written, IMHO.

I don't think it's disingenuous to refer to the elite as "the country" when the subject is the government.

Maybe not, but the subject is actually bad actors.

 

[TomC]

Carter was the best, and look what that got him.

Definitely a salient point, but the last chapter in that book is not yet written, IMHO.

I'm curious what you mean by that.

It's quite a derail, but the way Jimmy "The Christian" Carter got booted out of office by the electorate of this Great Christian Nation would be a great discussion.

I don't think it's disingenuous to refer to the elite as "the country" when the subject is the government.

Maybe not, but the subject is actually bad actors.

Self centered and self indulgent elites run almost every superpower level country. Government, and the elites who run them, are commonly referred to by the name of the country. It's not terribly precise, sometimes extremely imprecise. Afghanistan is good current example. But it's the common vernacular.
Tom

 

[Gun Nut]

You are like these smokers who got cancer, trying to find other causes of their cancer.
The cause of downfall of Great USA will be...... bunch of fat russian hackers/trolls.

Russian Bots are certainly instigating and promoting division. They are a piece of the problem. They certainly didn't start the fire, but they are certainly adding fuel to the fire.

Ya, it would be like saying the Cheerleaders won the game.

 

[barbos]

You are like these smokers who got cancer, trying to find other causes of their cancer.
The cause of downfall of Great USA will be...... bunch of fat russian hackers/trolls.

Russian Bots are certainly instigating and promoting division. They are a piece of the problem. They certainly didn't start the fire, but they are certainly adding fuel to the fire.

Putin is a bad actor. From what I can tell, even barbos agrees with that. His intent, and therefore Russia's intent, is to help destroy American democracy. Putin understandably sees actual functioning democracy as a threat to his personal supremacy, which is that of an autocrat pretending to represent the democratic choice of his population.
Having successfully installed his puppet, he spent four years trying in vain to teach and encourage that puppet to follow his lead and seize control of the government by force.
It very very nearly worked.
But the puppet lacked both the courage and the smarts to pull it off. However there is sufficient division left in the wake of the puppet's defeat that Putin may be able to exploit it, and effect the transition to autocracy after all, with the assistance of the remaining leaders of the defeated party.
I am sure that even now, Putin continues to read the playbook to Trump, whose role has been diminished to that of messenger, though he probably doesn't realize it yet.

That the elements of this meticulous destruction of democracy existed before Putin took such an active role in exploiting them, is sufficient to declare Putin's and Russia's innocence in the matter only if one tends toward Russian Nationalism, which barbos obviously does.

It's tiresome. I have explained myself a million times. Nobody in Russian government gives a shit about your democracy. All they want is to leave Russia alone and stop trying to regime change them. And "support" of Trump was merely passive-aggressive way to say to future president Clinton stop messing with our business.

 

[barbos]

You are like these smokers who got cancer, trying to find other causes of their cancer.
The cause of downfall of Great USA will be...... bunch of fat russian hackers/trolls.

George Washington already predicted what the downfall of the USA would be... It would be "from the inside out". The treasonous insurrectionists both in government and in our population attempted, and failed, to bring down the US that way.

The uneducated, fat, communists that have to wait on line for 8 hours to be given their monthly ration of bread, with their rusted and useless war machines and worthless currency is not, in any shape or form, even a tiny little risk to the USA. They will go the fate of North Korea and disappear into irrelevance.

I think they're more likely to adopt the China model, and (continue to) insinuate themselves into the power structures of third world nation, even at the expense of relegating their own populace to living in similar conditions.

You mean Russia? Well, they wish of course, but there is no chance of actually doing that. Russia is too small to be viable self-contained economy as China, and control of the internet like they do in China is simply impossible, Putin would be overthrown immediately if he tries to ban youtube/facebook/instagram.

 

[ZiprHead]

Putin is a bad actor. From what I can tell, even barbos agrees with that. His intent, and therefore Russia's intent, is to help destroy American democracy. Putin understandably sees actual functioning democracy as a threat to his personal supremacy, which is that of an autocrat pretending to represent the democratic choice of his population.
Having successfully installed his puppet, he spent four years trying in vain to teach and encourage that puppet to follow his lead and seize control of the government by force.
It very very nearly worked.
But the puppet lacked both the courage and the smarts to pull it off. However there is sufficient division left in the wake of the puppet's defeat that Putin may be able to exploit it, and effect the transition to autocracy after all, with the assistance of the remaining leaders of the defeated party.
I am sure that even now, Putin continues to read the playbook to Trump, whose role has been diminished to that of messenger, though he probably doesn't realize it yet.

That the elements of this meticulous destruction of democracy existed before Putin took such an active role in exploiting them, is sufficient to declare Putin's and Russia's innocence in the matter only if one tends toward Russian Nationalism, which barbos obviously does.

It's tiresome. I have explained myself a million times. Nobody in Russian government gives a shit about your democracy. All they want is to leave Russia alone and stop trying to regime change them. And "support" of Trump was merely passive-aggressive way to say to future president Clinton stop messing with our business.

How do you know this? Because that's what your state controlled media told you?

 

[barbos]

Putin is a bad actor. From what I can tell, even barbos agrees with that. His intent, and therefore Russia's intent, is to help destroy American democracy. Putin understandably sees actual functioning democracy as a threat to his personal supremacy, which is that of an autocrat pretending to represent the democratic choice of his population.
Having successfully installed his puppet, he spent four years trying in vain to teach and encourage that puppet to follow his lead and seize control of the government by force.
It very very nearly worked.
But the puppet lacked both the courage and the smarts to pull it off. However there is sufficient division left in the wake of the puppet's defeat that Putin may be able to exploit it, and effect the transition to autocracy after all, with the assistance of the remaining leaders of the defeated party.
I am sure that even now, Putin continues to read the playbook to Trump, whose role has been diminished to that of messenger, though he probably doesn't realize it yet.

That the elements of this meticulous destruction of democracy existed before Putin took such an active role in exploiting them, is sufficient to declare Putin's and Russia's innocence in the matter only if one tends toward Russian Nationalism, which barbos obviously does.

It's tiresome. I have explained myself a million times. Nobody in Russian government gives a shit about your democracy. All they want is to leave Russia alone and stop trying to regime change them. And "support" of Trump was merely passive-aggressive way to say to future president Clinton stop messing with our business.

How do you know this? Because that's what your state controlled media told you?

How do you know that? Because that's what your oligarch controlled media told you?

 

[ZiprHead]

How do you know this? Because that's what your state controlled media told you?

How do you know that? Because that's what your oligarch controlled media told you?

How do I know what? I asked questions. I didn't make a statement.

 

[barbos]

How do you know this? Because that's what your state controlled media told you?

How do you know that? Because that's what your oligarch controlled media told you?

How do I know what? I asked questions. I didn't make a statement.

How do you know this:

Because that's what your state controlled media told you?

?

You all keep repeating the same mantra which US media keeps repeating.
They are lying to you.

 

[ZiprHead]

How do I know what? I asked questions. I didn't make a statement.

How do you know this:

Because that's what your state controlled media told you?

?

You all keep repeating the same mantra which US media keeps repeating.
They are lying to you.

How do you know our media is lying and not yours?

 

[TomC]

How do you know this:
?

You all keep repeating the same mantra which US media keeps repeating.
They are lying to you.

How do you know our media is lying and not yours?

Because all of it is inclined to lie.
It's a function of the internet world.
Tom

 

[bilby]

If you believe that people outside the USA are impressed by, much less envious of, the US system of government, then you are a victim of propaganda.

There are hundreds of different systems for running a country. That of the United States of America is not better than most others in any obvious ways, nor is it even particularly different from many of the systems in place elsewhere.

US exceptionalism is a myth; And ironically, national exceptionalism is a commonplace and widely believed myth in dozens of countries (and is particularly common in places that lack basic liberties found in most of the developed world).

Much of US foreign policy (particularly when there's military involvement) founders on the false premise that the people of other nations look up to, and yearn to emulate, the US of A.

They don't.

The rest of the world sees the US as selfish, pompous, and arrogant. Whether or not they are correct in that assessment is less important (for US foreign policy) than whether Americans understand that that's the assessment they've made. If you start from the assumption that people who think you selfish, pompous, and arrogant are secretly in love with your system and desperate to emulate it, you are going to make total fools of yourselves. If you imagine that they see you as noble leaders and guardians of liberty, you're going to come across as a clueless bunch of clowns.

And that would be the case even if your assessment was right, and theirs were wrong.

 

[lpetrich]

If you believe that people outside the USA are impressed by, much less envious of, the US system of government, then you are a victim of propaganda. ...

The rest of the world sees the US as selfish, pompous, and arrogant. ...

Former Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was denounced by the right wing for saying that she would not recommend the US Constitution to other countries. Ruth Bader Ginsburg Taken Way Out of Context - FactCheck.org But that's what General Douglas MacArthur did in Japan -- he modeled postwar Japan's constitution after Britain's, not the US's.

•  List of electoral systems by country
•  Democracy Index
•  Fragile States Index
•  Human Development Index

On top are the Nordic countries: Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland. All of them have a parliamentary or Westminster system where the legislature picks the acting executive. The legislature has only one chamber, and it is elected by party-list proportional representation. Their head of state is independent of the acting leadership, and he/she is either a ceremonial monarch or a ceremonial president.

Next in line are the non-US Anglo nations, Canada (single-member districts with FPTP, upper house appointed), New Zealand (mixed-member proportional), Ireland (single transferable vote, upper house appointed), Australia (instant runoff vote, upper house STV), and the United Kingdom (SMD with FPTP, upper house appointed).

Then the Central European Germanic states, the Netherlands, Germany (MMP), Austria, and Switzerland. all but Switzerland with upper houses appointed by provincial legislatures (the original system for the US Senate), and Switzerland by elections in each province (the present system for the US Senate).

The Anglo and Central European nations tend to be mixed rather than sorted out.

Belgium is lower than what one might expect, from its Flemish and Walloon populations not getting along with each other very well.

 

[ZiprHead]

Interesting. ^^^ I did not know that about MacArthur.